So, here is the mission...

wrbix said:
He does get wet, because he hasn't discovered the umbrella yet.
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I get soaked because my airplane is too heavy to push into the hangar while holding said umbrella.


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gsengle said:
Here's the thing. Common types aren't that hard to buy and sell. So don't worry about buying the wrong plane or trying to buy your second plane first. Buy a type like an Arrow, where you can't really go wrong - and learn from ownership a few years.

Browse the listings (which should be fun) and just make a spreadsheet with possible candidates comparing features times and price. Pick one get a prebuy inspection for sure. All can be done in a month or two.

My experience was I bought an Arrow. Was great. But also learned I liked to fly far away. Like New England to Florida far. Learned that I could go 40 knots faster in a Mooney for about 2 more gallons per hour. Now I've had a Mooney almost ten years. Guess what, along came twins. The child kind not the airplane kind. We shall see if useful load considerations drive me to a Saratoga maybe or a light twin. But sure would miss being able to literally cross the country in one day.

Don't stress, short of skipping a good prebuy inspection, you won't go too far wrong....


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Very Helpful. Makes me feel a lot better about it. I appreciate you sharing your experience and process. Thanks.
 
weilke said:
Borrow/steal some money and buy a F33A or A36 with FTA air conditioning. Your little pooches would probably die from heat stroke in any lesser aircraft.
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This is a good point. I wasn't really thinking about that heat - but it is something to consider.
 
denverpilot said:
When loading up two couples, is that with "full baggage" or "traveling light"?

Reason I ask is, two couples plus full baggage is really a six-seater or heavy load hauling four-seater's job. You'll limit-out on total payload with most four-seaters and "modern" American sized couples.

But if you have friends who can do the "take a very small bag and a credit card" thing... larger four-seaters can work fine.

I'll be honest... it's really rare that we find a couple who wants to do a LONG X-C with us in the 182... four or more hours in an airplane going somewhere with a fuel stop, isn't "fun" for most folks. Once you tell them after they breathlessly ask, "Oh! You have your own airplane! Can we all fly to Vegas some weekend?!" that you can, and it'll take about six hours and a fuel stop somewhere... they suddenly aren't as interested.
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The majority of my flights would be all four hours or less. I don't mind a stop between destinations - my wife is going to require that no matter what!
 
steviedeviant said:
This is a good point. I wasn't really thinking about that heat - but it is something to consider.
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Very few light airplanes especially inexpensive ones have ac. It's cool at altitude anyway...


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gsengle said:
Very few light airplanes especially inexpensive ones have ac. It's cool at altitude anyway...


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I think this is something to consider in the sense that we need to monitor heat - something I had not particularly thought about. but there are several options to cool a plan, if needed. It would not be a priority, just something for me to consider.
 
Some options

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images

images
 
B1EE7B5C-1298-4556-B87E-28FC3D2DF85C.JPG My pooches do just fine with the heat, even flying in and out of KCDK in July.
.....and they know about an umbrella. ;)
 
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steviedeviant said:
This is a good point. I wasn't really thinking about that heat - but it is something to consider.
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With AC, your wife and the pooches wont mind traveling by plane. At the top end of your budget you can get into an 80s era F33A and add the AC. It doesn't sound like you would need the additional space and payload that an A36 offers.
 
weilke said:
With AC, your wife and the pooches wont mind traveling by plane. At the top end of your budget you can get into an 80s era F33A and add the AC. It doesn't sound like you would need the additional space and payload that an A36 offers.
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That's a lot of plane for 75-125k... or just accept the 2 deg c per 1000ft


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The advice on a Tiger / PA28-235 / 182T / is very sound - and you will be very happy. A Mooney C model might work out nicely for you as well.

It gets hot and humid in the southeast so you want an airplane that can reliably cruise at 8500 / 9500 so you can get into cool clear air quickly.

Spend the money not on airframe but on avionics - find one already with a screen GPS and nice AP and ADS-B . . . spend the money ONCE.
 
comanchepilot said:
The advice on a Tiger / PA28-235 / 182T / is very sound - and you will be very happy. A Mooney C model might work out nicely for you as well.

It gets hot and humid in the southeast so you want an airplane that can reliably cruise at 8500 / 9500 so you can get into cool clear air quickly.

Spend the money not on airframe but on avionics - find one already with a screen GPS and nice AP and ADS-B . . . spend the money ONCE.
Click to expand...


So not open another can or worms, but what are the opinions on buying a plane that isn't as updated but at a lower price and then updating your avionics, or finding one that is already updated but you spend more on the front end. Again, my budget may allow a little of both, but just curious. I know we have to all do those updated by 2020 anyway.
 
steviedeviant said:
So not open another can or worms, but what are the opinions on buying a plane that isn't as updated but at a lower price and then updating your avionics, or finding one that is already updated but you spend more on the front end. Again, my budget may allow a little of both, but just curious. I know we have to all do those updated by 2020 anyway.
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The cheapest avionics are the ones already installed when you buy the plane.
 
gsengle said:
That's a lot of plane for 75-125k... or just accept the 2 deg c per 1000ft
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And bake while you are on the ground. It's the southeast, even taxiing out at some place in Georgia or FL in the summer sucks. Sure, once you are at altitude you just turn the thing off.


Btw. There is another good option in that price range: One of the ex Israeli military TB20s. They are 1995 models, normally aspirated IO540s. Not the fastest plane for the money but they have good useful load, good range, two doors and AC.
 
My opinion re the order of importance when buying, in order to get value for money:
- well maintained, NDH airframe
- low time powerplant(s) or heavily discounted if higher time (that latter scenario allows new owner to define OH parameters)
- complete records
ALL THE ABOVE DEFINED BY GOOD PREBUY INSPECTION
- up to date avionics w ADSB
- good/acceptable paint
- good/non-odorous interior
 
weilke said:
And bake while you are on the ground. It's the southeast, even taxiing out at some place in Georgia or FL in the summer sucks.
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Unless you end up with the Tiger, with which you can open the canopy and enjoy the cooling breeze or wind from that big fan up front.
 
wrbix said:
Unless you end up with the Tiger, with which you can open the canopy and enjoy the cooling breeze or wind from that big fan up front.
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Unless you're at a busy airport you can get off quickly. And the big fan up front doesn't hurt.


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weilke said:
The cheapest avionics are the ones already installed when you buy the plane.
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Normally I'd agree, but look at all the sudden STC movement on avionics. Best bet may be terrible panel with a 430, that gets a dynon skyview hdx in a couple years...


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My 2 cents after making a decision based on similar parameters to yours. About 70% of my flying is by myself. About 20% is with one other person. About 10% with us and another couple. My wife and I together weigh about 300 lbs. Other couples with whom we fly are similarly sized. I looked at Archers and Arrows, Tigers, Mooneys (smaller size), and fixed gear Cardinals (I had been warned off Cardinal retracts...not saying that's good advice, only that was what I had to go on at the time). My price range was lower than yours and I did not see Bonanzas that I wanted to own in my price range.

Of the planes I considered, all could take the two of us with full fuel for 4-5 hours, or four plus 50 lbs of baggage for at least 3 hours plus a 1 hour reserve. The Mooney was far and away the fastest, but the rear seat was so small that there was no way that I could ask adults to sit there for any length of time. Maybe at your price point you could pay for a larger size that could fit adults in the back, but the ones I saw (M20 series, IIRC) were too small.

I also found that crawling into and out of that single door to be inconvenient, at best. The Pipers had more room in the back, but I did not look forward to dealing with the single door (it feels to me like crawling into a cave), and they were the slowest of the group. Even the Arrow with its retractable gear was no faster than the Tiger.

The Tiger was easy to get into and out of. Not luxurious in the back seat, but comfortable enough. Second fastest after the Mooney. Opening the canopy on the ground on a hot day beats cracking the door on a Piper/Mooney or opening Cessna windows by a wide margin. Most nimble handling in the air of the group, as well. I was worried about parts availability, but found that there is a small network of airframe parts suppliers from which you can get just about anything you need. The engines are standard Lycoming O-360-A types.

Cardinal was the most spacious. Easy in and out with massive doors. Including the back seat. Good speed with the 180 hp engine (near the Tiger...not so much with 150 hp). Great looking (IMHO). For all my looking, I never found one to fly nearby. And by the time I was near the decision, I was favoring a fixed pitch prop and could not find any for sale with 180 hp and fixed pitch prop (only made for 1 year). So I dropped them from consideration. At your price point you might be more willing to accept the maintenance cost of a constant speed prop, so you would have a greater selection from which to choose.

As you can probably tell from the above, I purchased a Tiger and love it. Useful load is 973 lbs. Put in 39 gallons of usable fuel to the tabs and cabin load is 739 lbs. It does 135 kts (155 mph) at 9.5 gph. Handles like a sports car. People can get into the back seats while standing up. And the one time I had to get in while out in the rain, a standard umbrella worked just fine. Have put about 800 hours on it since 2012 and love it.

Take the advice about flying (or at least seeing) the candidates before narrowing your decision. Crawl into the back seats.

And at your price point you should be able to get a pretty nice 4 seat Bonanza that can carry what my Tiger can carry, and more. If you and your prospective passengers are larger, then something like a 36 series Bonanza or a larger Piper may be your only single engine choices.
 
wrbix said:
Unless you end up with the Tiger, with which you can open the canopy and enjoy the cooling breeze or wind from that big fan up front.
Click to expand...

Heat index was 110 today.
I got 2 pool noodles now which are my "Grumman Noodles". One is 2 inches and the other 6.
There are other things to use but these don't scratch the paint.

Me and a friend flew for a few hours this evening and the canopy even at just 2 inches open is great.
We flew the grumman for a bit and then landed where I keep the Cirrus and flew it just so he could see it.
Sweating like mad in the Cirrus and trying to hold the doors open on the ground has nothing on the Canopy. It is a far superior plane in many ways but in the Texas heat the open canopy rocks. We were doing stop and goes and my pax opened it once the wheels were down every time.
 
comanchepilot said:
The advice on a Tiger / PA28-235 / 182T / is very sound - and you will be very happy.
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A 182T will be a challenge within that budget. A T182, on the other hand, is doable. But a T182T will be darned near impossible.
 
IMG_2940.JPG
SixPapaCharlie said:
Heat index was 110 today.
I got 2 pool noodles now which are my "Grumman Noodles". One is 2 inches and the other 6.
There are other things to use but these don't scratch the paint.

Me and a friend flew for a few hours this evening and the canopy even at just 2 inches open is great.
We flew the grumman for a bit and then landed where I keep the Cirrus and flew it just so he could see it.
Sweating like mad in the Cirrus and trying to hold the doors open on the ground has nothing on the Canopy. It is a far superior plane in many ways but in the Texas heat the open canopy rocks. We were doing stop and goes and my pax opened it once the wheels were down every time.
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.....and you can even outfit them with cup holders! - important to some ;)
 
weilke said:
The cheapest avionics are the ones already installed when you buy the plane.
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Hence Joe's Airplane Purchase corrollary: "The prior owner does all the upgrades"

A panel GPS, decent AP, HSI to keep you sane - will run you $30-40k installed - and thats without the latest and greatest glass HSI/primary instrument.

You will NEVER find an aircraft discounted that much because it lacks those things. . .
 
gsengle said:
I get soaked because my airplane is too heavy to push into the hangar while holding said umbrella.


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why not just wait for the heavy stuff to stop? 10 min? Then you'll just get heavily damp!

 
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comanchepilot said:
why not just wait for the heavy stuff to stop? 10 min? Then you'll just get heavily damp!
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Because my Mooney cockpit is so hellishly cramped I can't wait to get out :)


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Something to consider when buying a plane.
The market has decided as a rule of thumb, less then 500 hours is since major overhaul/reman is a new engine. Less then 500 hours till TBO is a run out engine. In between is mid life.
Planes are often priced based on the above rules of thumb. With the list and perceived selling price of the run out compared to the new is rather close to the price of getting an overhaul. Depending on the model of plane, and some options on the engines, the market is wrong to price it this way. For example, if I was looking for a NA C182, I would be searching for one with a solid airframe, good avionics, good cosmetics, and a run out engine that is actively flown. The reason is, if the C182 without a turbo can often go past TBO by a wide margin. You then get better avionics, and can fly "free" on the run out engine for potentially years before you need to replace it.

Tim
 
steviedeviant said:
After doing some research, reading boards, etc, I have started seriously searching for the type of plane that would fit me. I met with someone who helped me breakdown several ideas from the many that are out there. It was the owner of the flight school I took from. They mentioned Dakota, Arrow, Bo F34, A36 and may a Cherokee 6. Yeah, a lot of variation here, but I wanted some options. I am open to other ideas - however - my wife "likes" the low wing, so that is what we are focusing. We have decided to eliminate all high wings plans because it just isn't what we want.

It is just my wife and I, no children, two small dogs (under 5 pounds each).
Nearly all the flying would be in the South East, no mountains to really deal with.
Most trips would be under 400 miles
I have 100 hours, VFR and I want to get my IFR in the plane I purchase. I do not have complex training, but the school would immediate work with me on this if I decided to go that route.
I want some speed - personally don't wan to see the cars below going faster than me.

Here is something that I don't know how to plan for. Yeah it is my wife and I an probably 90% of the time it will be just us 2 and bags. However, there is going to be that situation where we have two other adults - Everyone says two things:

1) Buy your second plane first
2) Buy the plane for the 90% of the time mission

But I want to be able to car others and that is what I was told to take a look at those with 6 seats.

Budget is probably up to $75,000 to $125,000 but I would be willing to go more for the right plane - maybe up to $150,000.

Any thoughts?
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It can be challenging to try those planes out as they are rarely in rental fleets. Notice I said "rarely" instead of "never". You may be lucky and have one or more in a rental fleet near you. You may be able to meet some owners and get a ride though, or at the very least see them and sit inside.

Insurance is going to be high the first year. Between no complex time, no IR and only 100 hours you're a higher risk. Not a big deal, we've all been there before. Get your IR and as much flying as you can in the first year and the second year should be significantly lower.

Speed helps with longer trips, but not so much for the short ones. It definitely helps fight headwinds. A SR22 beats and Arrow on a 400 nm by ~45 min. That's not a lot. Toss in just 15 knots of headwind though and the margin grows to almost an hour. The biggest difference to me between those two is the time it takes to get to cruise altitude. One summer trip I thought we were never going to make it to 9,000' in the Arrow, while getting there in the SR22 is quick.

Here's a chart I built years ago:

speeds2.jpg

Climb rate is also very important, especially in the summer. You can get up to the cooler air quicker, as well as getting to your cruising speed sooner, and on top of the clouds as much as that is possible. That's largely horsepower to weight.

Planning for 4 adults is possible for some of those planes; of course depending upon how big they are. As others have said, most other folks won't want to ride for a long time in a small plane. Don't leave your plane topped off and you can carry more people/stuff instead. From Birmingham to New Orleans is 2 hours or less with a speedy traveling plane. Even quicker to the panhandle. You don't need a lot of fuel for flights like that. This is where useful load is critical. I flew a friend's Commander 112A for a bit, but it's useful load was just too low. Nice plane, but a useful load in the upper 800's.
 
The trick to getting rides is to take a genuine interest in a type. Ask intelligent questions on the types owner forums. And then accept offers of rides to check out the type. And meet other owners while you're at it. Flying with an owner is a great way to learn.


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gsengle said:
The trick to getting rides is to take a genuine interest in a type. Ask intelligent questions on the types owner forums. And then accept offers of rides to check out the type. And meet other owners while you're at it. Flying with an owner is a great way to learn.
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Hell, you don't even have to ask intelligent questions -- I'll give anyone a ride in a 182! :)
 
Just an interesting aside- Aviation Consumer this month (just received it today) has a review of Grumman Tiger and Cheetah.....again - seems like about third time in as many years.

Of course, nothing but the highest praise and outperforms all competitors......:)
 
wayne said:
It can be challenging to try those planes out as they are rarely in rental fleets. Notice I said "rarely" instead of "never". You may be lucky and have one or more in a rental fleet near you. You may be able to meet some owners and get a ride though, or at the very least see them and sit inside.
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Superior Flight School at KRYY supposedly has a Tiger on its flight line. It might be worth the OP''s while to take a ride over to Atlanta and get an hour or two of dual in it.
 
Don't know where in SouthEast OP is but I'd be happy to give a ride - currently at KVJI, but spend time at KCDK also.
 
steviedeviant said:
Any thoughts?
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FormerHangie said:
Superior Flight School at KRYY supposedly has a Tiger on its flight line. It might be worth the OP''s while to take a ride over to Atlanta and get an hour or two of dual in it.
Click to expand...

Skybound at KPDK has an Arrow and a Lance.

You could take a trip to Atlanta and fly all three of those.
 
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