So, here is the mission...

steviedeviant

steviedeviant

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 28, 2015
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StevieD
After doing some research, reading boards, etc, I have started seriously searching for the type of plane that would fit me. I met with someone who helped me breakdown several ideas from the many that are out there. It was the owner of the flight school I took from. They mentioned Dakota, Arrow, Bo F34, A36 and may a Cherokee 6. Yeah, a lot of variation here, but I wanted some options. I am open to other ideas - however - my wife "likes" the low wing, so that is what we are focusing. We have decided to eliminate all high wings plans because it just isn't what we want.

It is just my wife and I, no children, two small dogs (under 5 pounds each).
Nearly all the flying would be in the South East, no mountains to really deal with.
Most trips would be under 400 miles
I have 100 hours, VFR and I want to get my IFR in the plane I purchase. I do not have complex training, but the school would immediate work with me on this if I decided to go that route.
I want some speed - personally don't wan to see the cars below going faster than me.

Here is something that I don't know how to plan for. Yeah it is my wife and I an probably 90% of the time it will be just us 2 and bags. However, there is going to be that situation where we have two other adults - Everyone says two things:

1) Buy your second plane first
2) Buy the plane for the 90% of the time mission

But I want to be able to car others and that is what I was told to take a look at those with 6 seats.

Budget is probably up to $75,000 to $125,000 but I would be willing to go more for the right plane - maybe up to $150,000.

Any thoughts?
 
Plenty of four seaters can carry two couples. Just not that far nonstop. Beyond that not enough info to narrow it down. Your flights are not that far, but if you wanna go fast, Mooney. If you like comfort and a retract, not as fast, Commander or Trinidad. If you want sweet handling and speed in the middle, consider a Bonanza, not a 36 per se. The safe first retract choice? Arrow. Just not fast. All of these types have examples in your price range.

If you want a chute and don't care about retract, Cirrus. Maintenance and insurance isn't cheap though, and chute repack is what, $1000 a year addl reserve. And they are newer so may be our of your range. Other good fixed gear option is a Tiger...

If you want 4 people plus baggage, Cherokee six/Lance are in your price range. But higher fuel burn all the time and not that fast.

So what matters to you?

The best advice I can give is to go see em, sit in em, fly em. That's what will help you most. The other advice is if you're a brand new pilot, rent for a little while and get some perspective on what traveling in a little airplane is like before you really understand your mission.

Other thoughts, a minor point, but a retract is handy to have if you ever wanna get your commercial cert.... and looks cool imho ;)


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M20 F or J will fit your budget and mission. My wife and I do that with a (smaller) M20-C, but we onl have a single 9 lb dog . . . . :eek: I get 148 KTAS, 9 gph block time, with 5 hours range plus IFR reserves. Works for 4 people day trips, no bags, and handles asphalt and grass just fine.

If you're serious about complex, get the Endorse entry first, it will really help your first year insurance (says the man who bought a Mooney with 62 Cessna hours in his logbook).
 
Your mission description shouts "Tiger". Dakota, or its predecessor Cherokee 235/Pathfinder, would work too, but is thirstier.

With most trips under 400 miles, I personally wouldn't bother with retractable gear. It'll never save as much time in the air as you spend fussing with it on the ground. And a big six-seater like an A36 or Cherokee Six would get tiresome quickly, like driving to work alone every day in a Suburban. Keep it simple. Just my $.02.
 
Pilawt said:
Your mission description shouts "Tiger". Dakota, or its predecessor Cherokee 235/Pathfinder, would work too, but is thirstier.

With most trips under 400 miles, I personally wouldn't bother with retractable gear. It'll never save as much time in the air as you spend fussing with it on the ground. And a big six-seater like an A36 or Cherokee Six would get tiresome quickly, like driving to work alone every day in a Suburban. Keep it simple. Just my $.02.
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That's sound advice. But what's this fussing with retractable gear on the ground? I don't fuss with mine particularly until it's time for "gear up"!

I think the point is that faster more complex airplanes are a bit more work to fly and are not as easy to just jump in and take off.

My break even on retract though is more like 200 miles. Over 400 nautical miles, the speed difference between say an Archer and a J Mooney means something like an hour faster if I did my math right...


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Beech Sundowner is something to look at. 2 doors good payload, fixed gear. nice planes
 
Pilawt said:
With most trips under 400 miles, I personally wouldn't bother with retractable gear. It'll never save as much time in the air as you spend fussing with it on the ground.
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All I do with my gear is jack it up at annual to repack the wheel bearings, and spend a few minutes with a grease gun lubricating the joints. I save more time than that in a single flight over a couple hundred miles compared to anything else with 200 hp or less. And I walk away from 182s on much less fuel . . . Call it three flights (out, back and out to somewhere else) to make up for time spent "fussing with the gear on the ground."

Must be because Mooney didn't go for the exotic wounded duck Cessna motion, nor Piper's pricey hydraulic gear transmission, preferring your choice (before purchase!) of an electric motor (just one) or your own strong right arm.
 
AKBill said:
Beech Sundowner is something to look at. 2 doors good payload, fixed gear. nice planes
Click to expand...

I left it off my list for a couple of reasons, although it's roomy, they are mediocre performers, super slow, relatively few were built, and one owned by a friend has been laid up more than once by parts availability. Also Beech parts aren't cheap. I'd go for an earlier Bo myself first... but if you found a nice one, take a look!


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I appreciate the feedback. Purchasing a plane should be something to be excited about - I feel a little overwhelmed by the entire process. I don't want to fall into a situation where I analysis this to the point of not doing anything. Owning a plane is an expensive proposition, but it is one that my wife and I have decided we want and can afford to do. I don't know how you all went about getting your first plane - but I am finding the process to be difficult to decide. I don't have a lot of friends in the aviation community because I am still very knew to it. However, I don't want to wait 10 years to buy a plane either. I think right now it is just not having enough education on each type of plane to be able to make a well-informed decision. That is why your feedback it helpful. Also, since I don't have a complex endorsement yet, I know that is something I have to get done - I will take Hank S advice and speak with the flight school about going ahead and getting that out of the way.

Ultimately, I may just break down and talk with a broker who can just search one out for me. I dread trying to find the plane that best fits me and I just don't think it should be that way.
 
gsengle said:
But what's this fussing with retractable gear on the ground? I don't fuss with mine particularly until it's time for "gear up"!
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I don't quibble strongly with you and Hank, and I understand where you're coming from. I owned a Cheetah for five years, then a K35 Bonanza for five years, now I have a 172N/180hp. The Bo's speed and range were great for those occasional 1000-nm trips, but for most of my flying it was just gilding the lily. Especially at annual time and paying the insurance bill -- and the time the gear motor failed and I had to crank it down on a lovely local flight after work one evening.

I loved the airplane, but eventually came to appreciate the advice of William Bushnell Stout, designer of the Ford Tri-Motor: "Simplicate and add more lightness."
 
steviedeviant said:
I appreciate the feedback. Purchasing a plane should be something to be excited about - I feel a little overwhelmed by the entire process. I don't want to fall into a situation where I analysis this to the point of not doing anything. Owning a plane is an expensive proposition, but it is one that my wife and I have decided we want and can afford to do. I don't know how you all went about getting your first plane - but I am finding the process to be difficult to decide. I don't have a lot of friends in the aviation community because I am still very knew to it. However, I don't want to wait 10 years to buy a plane either. I think right now it is just not having enough education on each type of plane to be able to make a well-informed decision. That is why your feedback it helpful. Also, since I don't have a complex endorsement yet, I know that is something I have to get done - I will take Hank S advice and speak with the flight school about going ahead and getting that out of the way.

Ultimately, I may just break down and talk with a broker who can just search one out for me. I dread trying to find the plane that best fits me and I just don't think it should be that way.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. Common types aren't that hard to buy and sell. So don't worry about buying the wrong plane or trying to buy your second plane first. Buy a type like an Arrow, where you can't really go wrong - and learn from ownership a few years.

Browse the listings (which should be fun) and just make a spreadsheet with possible candidates comparing features times and price. Pick one get a prebuy inspection for sure. All can be done in a month or two.

My experience was I bought an Arrow. Was great. But also learned I liked to fly far away. Like New England to Florida far. Learned that I could go 40 knots faster in a Mooney for about 2 more gallons per hour. Now I've had a Mooney almost ten years. Guess what, along came twins. The child kind not the airplane kind. We shall see if useful load considerations drive me to a Saratoga maybe or a light twin. But sure would miss being able to literally cross the country in one day.

Don't stress, short of skipping a good prebuy inspection, you won't go too far wrong....


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steviedeviant said:
... it is my wife and I an probably 90% of the time it will be just us 2 and bags. However, there is going to be that situation where we have two other adults
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When loading up two couples, is that with "full baggage" or "traveling light"?

Reason I ask is, two couples plus full baggage is really a six-seater or heavy load hauling four-seater's job. You'll limit-out on total payload with most four-seaters and "modern" American sized couples.

But if you have friends who can do the "take a very small bag and a credit card" thing... larger four-seaters can work fine.

I'll be honest... it's really rare that we find a couple who wants to do a LONG X-C with us in the 182... four or more hours in an airplane going somewhere with a fuel stop, isn't "fun" for most folks. Once you tell them after they breathlessly ask, "Oh! You have your own airplane! Can we all fly to Vegas some weekend?!" that you can, and it'll take about six hours and a fuel stop somewhere... they suddenly aren't as interested.
 
Borrow/steal some money and buy a F33A or A36 with FTA air conditioning. Your little pooches would probably die from heat stroke in any lesser aircraft.
 
Depending on the adults, even a Super Viking can fo the mission.
At that budget, you can reach for a clapped out A36, or a well maintained V-Tail.
What you are missing in the analysis is the emotion. This is what will sustain you when you get the large unexpected bils.
And by far the most critical emotion is one you have sort of alluded too. That is the wife, a travel plane is useless if she does not like it or want to travel with you in it. At that point switch to a Cub and enjoy punching holes in the sky.
Therefore, go find a clapped out A36 and take her up. Then find a mint condition old V-Tail or Mooney, and lastly an old Cirrus or Diamond.
That will give you the complete spectrum and find what is important to her. E.g. two doors, modern, smaller/old but cherry...

It then is a lot easier to narrow the field. The one exception is if she likes the old mint condition, at you budget you can find a really nice old V-Tail and plan on dealing with the cosmetics over a couple of years.

Good luck,

Tim

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Go fly one of each of the airplanes on your list.
 
No matter how you slice it, this is pleasure flying, no NEED to get anywhere. With your stats & mission I wouldn't feel under gunned in a nice Archer or Cherokee 180. You'll have plenty of breathing room with your budget.

Learn the 'fuel straw' for the plane & on cool days you can carry plenty on shorter flights. That's for the rare occasion you want 4 onboard.
 
sourdough44 said:
No matter how you slice it, this is pleasure flying, no NEED to get anywhere. With your stats & mission I wouldn't feel under gunned in a nice Archer or Cherokee 180. You'll have plenty of breathing room with your budget.

Learn the 'fuel straw' for the plane & on cool days you can carry plenty on shorter flights. That's for the rare occasion you want 4 onboard.
Click to expand...

I think you're hitting on some good advice without being explicit - don't be plane poor. Buy the plane you can afford to fly, be proficient in and maintain well... not that more expensive planes are necessarily more to maintain, but they leave you with less money on hand to be sure...


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My dad and I own an Arrow and I think it fits your mission perfectly. Most of the time we fly it's 2 people or less but we can load 4 adults and light luggage and go 300 miles at 150 mph. Might not be as fast as a Mooney or Cirrus but it's also cheaper to buy and maintain. Besides, speed isn't everything. It's supposed to be a vacation, why rush?
 
steviedeviant said:
It is just my wife and I, no children, two small dogs (under 5 pounds each).
Nearly all the flying would be in the South East, no mountains to really deal with.
Most trips would be under 400 miles
...I want to get my IFR in the plane I purchase.
Click to expand...
Wow... sounds like we're in similar boats! Except we're in the southwest and we have one dog who's about 70 lbs (but I worry about his ears so doubt he'll come with me flying much if ever)

**My biggest conundrum is that while there are a LOT of planes for sale, there are very FEW that don't feel like an ancient relic, are roomy inside, and relatively fast. I still have never sat in a Mooney but from what I've seen and read I really like them.. and for your budget you could get a pretty nice one. If not a Mooney (because they're "too small" (again, haven't sat in one yet)) then the TB-20 is what I'm going for. They're very wide and have some military heritage to them so they're built solid. I (think) there is not a single case of inflight breakup of these birds

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/19114117/1991-socata-tb-20-trinidad
 
gsengle said:
Unless it rains :p


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Some ill-informed person always brings that up :rolleyes: There are these miraculous new contraptions called umbrellas.
And besides, I'll bet two or four people can enter a Tiger faster and drier than they can ANY low wing with just one door.
Try a Tiger, you'll like the feel.
 
wrbix said:
Some ill-informed person always brings that up :rolleyes: There are these miraculous new contraptions called umbrellas.
And besides, I'll bet two or four people can enter a Tiger faster and drier than they can ANY low wing with just one door.
Try a Tiger, you'll like the feel.
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It may not be a big purchase factor, but it is not ill informed to say it has a canopy and you would get your interior wet getting out in real rain. It's actually true :p

I like a tiger and I like a low wing.


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.....can I buy you an umbrella when you actually own a Tiger? o_O
 
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wrbix said:
.....can I buy you an umbrella when you actually own a Tiger? o_O
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Would be a very big umbrella to cover entire cockpit but sure!


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Tantalum said:
Wow... sounds like we're in similar boats! Except we're in the southwest and we have one dog who's about 70 lbs (but I worry about his ears so doubt he'll come with me flying much if ever)

**My biggest conundrum is that while there are a LOT of planes for sale, there are very FEW that don't feel like an ancient relic, are roomy inside, and relatively fast. I still have never sat in a Mooney but from what I've seen and read I really like them.. and for your budget you could get a pretty nice one. If not a Mooney (because they're "too small" (again, haven't sat in one yet)) then the TB-20 is what I'm going for. They're very wide and have some military heritage to them so they're built solid. I (think) there is not a single case of inflight breakup of these birds

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/19114117/1991-socata-tb-20-trinidad
Click to expand...

Nice airplane! But why why black!
 
A regular golf umbrella does the job just fine while pilot and pax exit gracefully out canopy (c/w single side door for all).
....and don't even get me started on the great advantage of the partially opened canopy on hot days. :)
 
Grumman AA-5 series. Just a darn nice plane with good performance and economy.
 
FormerHangie said:
Don't you get wet walking from your car to the airplane when it rains? And, how often do you enter or exit the airplane when it's raining significantly?
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He does get wet, because he hasn't discovered the umbrella yet.
 
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