Small footprint airports

Plonkywonk said:
I'm amazed nobody else has considered runways that move. Why not have a shorter runway made from the same basic stuff and design as escalators except it is a flat surface on the top. Then spool up and get the aircraft up to speed and launch them. This would solve a lot of space problems in the city. Don't you think? Is maybe the tech not ready for that kinds of speed?
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That wouldn't even work. The treadmill-like device would not cause an airplane to accelerate unless it had its brakes locked, which would defeat the acceleration from the "spool up".

This is a myth. Even Mythbusters took this on - probably 10 years ago now. So many people don't understand how airplanes accelerate.

I'm guessing the OP is just trolling.
 
You guys are seriously arguing the merits of a treadmill airport ?
 
I would love to see a 750,000 pounds of airplane on a treadmill or catapult. please please please let JAPAN fund the study and NOT the USA foot the bill.

I have a feeling that any such system will not only be inherently dangerous and foolish but also very energy wasting.
 
weilke said:
You guys are seriously arguing the merits of a treadmill airport ?
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Who is "you guys"?

I'm seriously pointing out the fallacious physics inherent in the concept.

Pilots would know this and it's why I think the OP is a troll.
 
Lets see. If I am landing on a river and the river is going 10mph south and there is a 20 mph wind from the south is it better to land into the wind but downstream or with the wind and upstream????? Its a frame of reference problem.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Lets see. If I am landing on a river and the river is going 10mph south and there is a 20 mph wind from the south is it better to land into the wind but downstream or with the wind and upstream????? Its a frame of reference problem.
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That's a slightly different situation. The water running against the floats puts an actual drag on the airframe. Any drag from a paved surface landing is negated by the wheel bearings allowing the wheel to move freely.
 
Feeble minds fail to grasp monumental new ideas. This is an age old problem for humanity. Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, all have struggled with their so-called peers attempting to ridicule their outlandish ideas.

We're talking about a huge surface with a boundary layer effect. As the surface moves, so does the air immediately above the surface. When the times come for the aircraft to depart, the wings are flying in that moving air and we can then effect a momentum transfer to get it into the air.

Try, if you can, to wrap your feeble minds around this and attempt to disgard the dogma taught to you by generations of papyrus bearing CFI's. They are wrong. Firmly and loudly tell them that they are wrong.

Stop blathering. Start thinking.

Have a good weekend I am done with all of you.
 
Plonkywonk said:
We're talking about a huge surface with a boundary layer effect. As the surface moves, so does the air immediately above the surface. When the times come for the aircraft to depart, the wings are flying in that moving air and we can then effect a momentum transfer to get it into the air.
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To get the boundary layer friction you are talking about, you'd need a treadmill upwards of 10 miles long and 150' wide with a very rough surface. :rolleyes:

Didnt answer for you, just for anyone who might believe you arent a troll.
 
Plonkywonk said:
Feeble minds fail to grasp monumental new ideas. This is an age old problem for humanity. Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, all have struggled with their so-called peers attempting to ridicule their outlandish ideas.

We're talking about a huge surface with a boundary layer effect. As the surface moves, so does the air immediately above the surface. When the times come for the aircraft to depart, the wings are flying in that moving air and we can then effect a momentum transfer to get it into the air.

Try, if you can, to wrap your feeble minds around this and attempt to disgard the dogma taught to you by generations of papyrus bearing CFI's. They are wrong. Firmly and loudly tell them that they are wrong.

Stop blathering. Start thinking.

Have a good weekend I am done with all of you.
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:goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy:
 
Plot twist....

Why not get huge fans at the end of the runway to move the air.
 
has the popcorn smiley been posted yet?
:popcorn:

this feeble mind is looking forward to many more pages on this.....i think, maybe not
 
Plonkywonk said:
Feeble minds fail to grasp monumental new ideas. This is an age old problem for humanity. Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, all have struggled with their so-called peers attempting to ridicule their outlandish ideas.

We're talking about a huge surface with a boundary layer effect. As the surface moves, so does the air immediately above the surface. When the times come for the aircraft to depart, the wings are flying in that moving air and we can then effect a momentum transfer to get it into the air.

Try, if you can, to wrap your feeble minds around this and attempt to disgard the dogma taught to you by generations of papyrus bearing CFI's. They are wrong. Firmly and loudly tell them that they are wrong.

Stop blathering. Start thinking.

Have a good weekend I am done with all of you.
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Even if boundary layer worked that way (and it doesn't) there's one other little issue. As soon as you got airborne and climbed just a few feet above this moving layer of air the plane would stall from the sudden loss of airspeed. Ever heard of wind shear?


And yes, I too think you are a troll.
 
I think I have a serious and entirely practical proposal to accomplish OP's goals using conventional means..... in fact it's so practical I bet it's a known technique somewhere.

Picture a 100x1500' concrete runway with really wide(say 300') taxiway thresholds at each end and the taxiway is a continuous arc going from one end to the other with an FBO/ramp/hangars actually located inbetween the taxiway/runway.

Takeoff procedure would be to start your ground roll on the taxiway, making a less than 90 degree turn onto the runway on that ultra-wide threshold so that hopefully you're already carrying 10-20kts of momentum onto the 1500' straight portion which should make that plenty of runway for most GA aircraft.

For landing you'd employ short field procedures and plan to do a high speed turn off and finish deceleration while turning onto the taxiway.

But really that's not a taxiway... effectively "legally" you'd have a runway with curved ends leading onto a taxiway.
 
cowman said:
Takeoff procedure would be to start your ground roll on the taxiway, making a less than 90 degree turn onto the runway on that ultra-wide threshold so that hopefully you're already carrying 10-20kts of momentum onto the 1500' straight portion which should make that plenty of runway for most GA aircraft.
.
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And let's further your idea by NASCARing it! 20-30 degree bank on that wide taxiway, wider slicks for traction, safer barriers at each end, and..... :yes:
 
Why doesn't the boundary layer blow the dust off of the wing?


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
Could you imagine the cost?? Plus it would have to slow down exactly proportional to the aircraft braking. How would it know??
 
mscard88 said:
And let's further your idea by NASCARing it! 20-30 degree bank on that wide taxiway, wider slicks for traction, safer barriers at each end, and..... :yes:
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StinkBug said:
As soon as you got airborne and climbed just a few feet above this moving layer of air the plane would stall from the sudden loss of airspeed. Ever heard of wind shear?
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It doesn't just suddenly shear. You would only start to pull back way above the stall speed so any momentary slow down will be inconsequential.

I wish I was in front of a white board with you so I could teach you a good lesson and explain how the wind velocity will change slowly with height above the surface.

This could work. Too expensive? Ok maybe today. I like that other idea of a circular or oval track. I will evaluate that idea
 
Uh oh he's baaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkkkkk! Thought you gave up on us? :hairraise:
 
cowman said:
I think I have a serious and entirely practical proposal to accomplish OP's goals using conventional means..... in fact it's so practical I bet it's a known technique somewhere.

Picture a 100x1500' concrete runway with really wide(say 300') taxiway thresholds at each end and the taxiway is a continuous arc going from one end to the other with an FBO/ramp/hangars actually located inbetween the taxiway/runway.

Takeoff procedure would be to start your ground roll on the taxiway, making a less than 90 degree turn onto the runway on that ultra-wide threshold so that hopefully you're already carrying 10-20kts of momentum onto the 1500' straight portion which should make that plenty of runway for most GA aircraft.

For landing you'd employ short field procedures and plan to do a high speed turn off and finish deceleration while turning onto the taxiway.

But really that's not a taxiway... effectively "legally" you'd have a runway with curved ends leading onto a taxiway.
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There you go! You've let your mind free itself from the shackles of dogma that these other poor deluded fools have let themselves be trapped by and you're coming up with solutions that are not based on 100 year old techniques of a simplistic straight runway.

Yes that could work.
 
mscard88 said:
Uh oh he's baaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkkkkk! Thought you gave up on us? :hairraise:
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Yeah sorry about that. I was hitting the bottle hard and other stuff last night and got all paranoid.

I will take it upon myself to educate some of these poor deluded fools.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd like to see a video of these "tests", cause either you're a troll, or you're the misinformed one.

If you want to take off in a short space without modifying the aircraft you don't need to make the runway move, you need to make the air move. Good luck with that.
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FIFY. ;)

This has got to be one of the most fun boards to troll. A bunch of smart guys who take everything seriously.
 
Plonkywonk said:
Feeble minds fail to grasp monumental new ideas. This is an age old problem for humanity. Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, all have struggled with their so-called peers attempting to ridicule their outlandish ideas.

We're talking about a huge surface with a boundary layer effect. As the surface moves, so does the air immediately above the surface. When the times come for the aircraft to depart, the wings are flying in that moving air and we can then effect a momentum transfer to get it into the air.

Try, if you can, to wrap your feeble minds around this and attempt to disgard the dogma taught to you by generations of papyrus bearing CFI's. They are wrong. Firmly and loudly tell them that they are wrong.

Stop blathering. Start thinking.

Have a good weekend I am done with all of you.
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"papyrus bearing CFIs" - pflemming, you're back!!
Really haven't missed you at all.
Recorded any check rides lately?
 
Plonkywonk said:
Yeah sorry about that. I was hitting the bottle hard and other stuff last night and got all paranoid.

I will take it upon myself to educate some of these poor deluded fools.
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Trolls gotta troll.

Tell us about your check ride.
 
wrbix said:
"papyrus bearing CFIs" - pflemming, you're back!!
Really haven't missed you at all.
Recorded any check rides lately?
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I knew I encountered that style before.
 
Brilliance can manifest itself in multiple avenues. Never jump to conclusions.

I urge you all to stop just existing: Stop and thinking. Make some sense out of this apparent chaos. There is a purpose.

Try to find it. I can help if you fail.
 
Plonkywonk said:
Brilliance can manifest itself in multiple avenues. Never jump to conclusions.

I urge you all to stop just existing: Stop and thinking. Make some sense out of this apparent chaos. There is a purpose.

Try to find it. I can help if you fail.
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4ae8d372bd9e5c7b43881c37817d8500dab39cb02b054ec04b209be4962ca917.jpg
 
This idea is just plain ridiculous. Everyone with a half a brain knows the future lies with the Moller Sky car--no airport required. You're just wasting your time. :rolleyes:
 
tsts4 said:
This idea is just plain ridiculous. Everyone with a half a brain knows the future lies with the Moller Sky car--no airport required. You're just wasting your time. :rolleyes:
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Well that's the problem: Only people with half a brain would agree with you. You're in the presence of greatness but don't even know it (yet).
 
Plonkywonk said:
Brilliance can manifest itself in multiple avenues. Never jump to conclusions.

I urge you all to stop just existing: Stop and thinking. Make some sense out of this apparent chaos. There is a purpose.

Try to find it. I can help if you fail.
Click to expand...


StinkBug said:
4ae8d372bd9e5c7b43881c37817d8500dab39cb02b054ec04b209be4962ca917.jpg
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Holy hell. I don't even remember writing that. I mean it's correct (sort of) but don't remember writing it. Yesterday evening was kind of a blur to be honest.
 
It would work if you locked the brakes and applied full throttle, but that is essentially the same thing as a catapult.

That aside, the idea is completely impractical even if it worked some other way.
 
Guys, you are thinking about this in the wrong way. We need a plane elevator.

You taxi into a big flat spot and it lifts you up to altitude. Then you apply full power, hold brakes, and then you roll off the end and into the sky!

The reverse is easy, just have a trapeze setup for each plane and it'll catch you out of the air and slow you into one of the spots and bring you down.
 
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