Slower aircraft descending in front

TheGolfPilot

TheGolfPilot

Line Up and Wait
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Modesto, CA
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Golfpilot
Had an interesting situation I really hadn’t come across before. I was almost home in my archer and a slightly faster airplane commander) made a turn 2500’ below and 2 miles behind me on the exact same direction. I only knew they were there because they were on my gtn. As I began to descend our speeds were identical then he started to descend a little to so he kept getting closer. Upon reaching the class D he was at the same altitude and only about a mile behind making about 5 knots faster than me. Controller cleared me to land and told him to follow. It was obvious the guy was a little P.O. ed, by the tone of his voice, me descending to the airport in front of him. I figured if he wanted/could pass he could go over to the right. but it sure didn’t feel right descending in front of a guy like that. Part of me says maybe I could have stayed at altitude, slowed down, let him pass first. The other part of me says I have the right away being the slower airplane and if he wants to overtake me to the right and try to beat me to the pattern he can.

What would you have all done?
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Had an interesting situation I really hadn’t come across before. I was almost home in my archer and a slightly faster airplane commander) made a turn 2500’ below and 2 miles behind me on the exact same direction. I only knew they were there because they were on my gtn. As I began to descend our speeds were identical then he started to descend a little to so he kept getting closer. Upon reaching the class D he was at the same altitude and only about a mile behind making about 5 knots faster than me. Controller cleared me to land and told him to follow. It was obvious the guy was a little P.O. ed, by the tone of his voice, me descending to the airport in front of him. I figured if he wanted/could pass he could go over to the right. but it sure didn’t feel right descending in front of a guy like that. Part of me says maybe I could have stayed at altitude, slowed down, let him pass first. The other part of me says I have the right away being the slower airplane and if he wants to overtake me to the right and try to beat me to the pattern he can.

What would you have all done?
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First come, first served. The difference in overtake isn’t enough to put the Commander first.The controller’s radar feed (if they have one) is in 10 kt increments. At a 5 kt difference, the trailing aircraft could have easily been showing the same ground speed as you.

Just try and keep your speed up as much as possible and if the sequence doesn’t seem to work, let the controller modify their original plan and adjust the sequence. Done it several times in both tower and radar.
 
It's interesting because before the advent of ADSB, you wouldn't have known he was there right? I wonder what the impact this will have overall because a few times now I've felt like other airplanes can "see me" and then they want to mess with me. I had one guy in an RV chase me into the pattern at Sportys while I was on the left 45 & downwind. He was acting like a real jack-hole and ignored my calls on freq.

My thought is that ATC issued an instruction for him to follow you, end of story. If you two were very different class of a/c, I might have gotten out of his way (and have), but a Commander?
 
bobmrg said:
Fly your airplane...you are PIC. Let the guy in the other plane deal with it.

Bob
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Agree 100%. You were ahead, tower sequenced the other guy behind you. If I was in a much slower plane, like a 152, then I might offer to let him pass, but first things first...fly your plane, don’t let the other plane make you rush things.
 
iflyvfr said:
It's interesting because before the advent of ADSB, you wouldn't have known he was there right? I wonder what the impact this will have overall because a few times now I've felt like other airplanes can "see me" and then they want to mess with me. I had one guy in an RV chase me into the pattern at Sportys while I was on the left 45 & downwind. He was acting like a real jack-hole and ignored my calls on freq.

My thought is that ATC issued an instruction for him to follow you, end of story. If you two were very different class of a/c, I might have gotten out of his way (and have), but a Commander?
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ADSB = Air Rage
 
iflyvfr said:
My thought is that ATC issued an instruction for him to follow you, end of story. If you two were very different class of a/c, I might have gotten out of his way (and have), but a Commander?
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The tower cleared you to land, he was #2. End of story. If he had a beef, it was with the controller in the tower, not you. What would I have done? Keep on keeping on. Just as cleared.
 
bobmrg said:
Fly your airplane...you are PIC. Let the guy in the other plane deal with it.

Bob
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I agree as well. Allowing him to pass you that near the airport could make for a confusing situation for all parties involved. I had this happen at a nontowered airport recently (I was the faster plane gaining on the slower plane) and I just throttled up, climbed and did another lap of the pattern.

When something doesn't feel right, it usually isn't.
 
It's not like a Commander is all that much faster anyway. We all have to adjust speed once in a while. Don't worry too much about the other guy when you are getting sequenced by ATC.
 
You have the right of way because you're slower? Didn't you say he was 2500' below you? Um... somebody must have changed some stuff in the aviatin' rules. Although he had the right of way because he was lower, the controller cleared you first. I'd also be willing to bet that he didn't slow down on purpose just to show that controller what a big mistake they'd made. No harm done, have a nice sip of single malt, neat with just a splash of water.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You have the right of way because you're slower? Didn't you say he was 2500' below you? Um... somebody must have changed some stuff in the aviatin' rules. Although he had the right of way because he was lower, the controller cleared you first. I'd also be willing to bet that he didn't slow down on purpose just to show that controller what a big mistake they'd made. No harm done, have a nice sip of single malt, neat with just a splash of water.
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Are you suggesting that the lower plane was on a 5+ mile final? Either way I think he loses


(f)Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtakingaircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g)Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over otheraircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for anaircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching anairport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake thataircraft.
 
The commander was behind him, he didn't have the right of way.
 
To clarify. We were both entering the class delta on a 45, he was just a mile or so behind me when i called up tower. and once I was talking to tower all thoughts of letting him pass left my mind. I kept my speed up knowing he was behind me but that was it.
 
I would normally ignore him.
Once in a while when I want to practice something specific I ask ATC to let him in front so I can practice X procedure.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 
There are a couple of hot spots in my local area where VFR traffic seems to converge. A lot of traffic following the freeway about 2 miles from my home runway, and a lot of traffic squeeking between Class C airspace and a nearby uncontrolled field transiting toward the San Juans. When I'm inbound toward either of those airports, I'll usually do a few gentle S-turns to look for traffic behind me, and to show them my wings in case the haven't spotted me yet.
 
For a 5kt differential the guy behind should not have gotten worked up. Now if it was a 210 vs 152 there might be something there, but somebody should have negotiated an overtaking pass in that case.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
To clarify. We were both entering the class delta on a 45, he was just a mile or so behind me when i called up tower. and once I was talking to tower all thoughts of letting him pass left my mind. I kept my speed up knowing he was behind me but that was it.
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You coulda said why dontcha let that that guy pass me when you heard him check in and the Tower had him follow you. Sounds like it wasn’t that busy seeing as how you got cleared to land right away out there and weren’t following anyone. You mighta got a ‘cool,’ in so many words, from the Tower and he woulda made it so. Or ya may have got a ‘no pilot is going to tell me what to do’ attitude. Anyway, you cared about keeping things efficient and kept your speed up.
 
Normally, a plane converging from a different direction would be less of a conversation. It was just really amusing how the guy was on my exact same route below me and I had concern for him. It’s also amusing to me how the added traffic awareness of abs-b gave me some sense of urgency that I wouldn’t have had if I was totally ignorant to his presence.
Not a big connection but sort of similar to how engine monitors make us aware of “problems” we didn’t know we had.
 
Used to peel off and do a 360 to let the Beech 1900’s and Dash 7’s scoot by, as they were 30+ kts faster than what I was flying. If I was within 1/2 mile or less from touchdown, they got to start s turning and wait on me. Most of the guys would thank me for it, but few had the attitude that since they were pro’s, I needed to be out of their way all the time.
 
I'm very much with @bobmrg on this. I'm having a problem seeing the problem.

Yes, if I'm aware of an airplane on a converging route, I'm going to pay more attention than if I don't know it exists. But what I do is going to be very situational specific. The one posted, nothing.
 
It's the controller's traffic pattern and they call the sequence. Often pilots aren't aware of what else the controller has going on. If the controller makes someone number two, get over it, slow down to follow, and if you're still po'd call the tower and have a conversation. Good luck with that. I've had a few when I controlled and after explaining my point of view the pilot usually was satisfied, a few still ticked. Wanted to tell those ones to go take a number two! :confused::p:D
 
I get behind slower aircraft al the time. I can fly slow too, it isn't that difficult.
 
steingar said:
I get behind slower aircraft al the time. I can fly slow too, it isn't that difficult.
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Except when on approach to a field with strong cross winds. Then you need the speed for rudder control.... :D

Tim (could not resist)
 
I also think you did the right thing, especially in controlled airspace. If it was me I would have stopped focusing on him once ATC cleared me to land #1. Fly your plane and stop guessing what the other pilots are thinking or not thinking. He could have sounded mad because of something totally different and not at you.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You have the right of way because you're slower? Didn't you say he was 2500' below you? Um... somebody must have changed some stuff in the aviatin' rules. Although he had the right of way because he was lower, the controller cleared you first. I'd also be willing to bet that he didn't slow down on purpose just to show that controller what a big mistake they'd made. No harm done, have a nice sip of single malt, neat with just a splash of water.
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The Commander was 2 miles behind when the OP was outside class-d, meaning the Commander was at least 6 miles out from the airport. So, too far out to be on final

"When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft."

Rules are unchanged.
 
I this "MY SKY" attitude more and more these days. Just last weekend I called ten out to the south just before a 210 called ten to the north. Tower told both of us to report a 4 mile base. He calls and gets cleared to land and I'm told to turn 10 degrees left for spacing and cleared number 2. As I approach the turn to final the controller realizes what's going on and clears me to land number 1 and tells the 210 he's number 2. He reports me in sight but didn't sound to happy about it. I land taxi to the ramp and I'm sitting there cooling down the turbos when this guy finally lands. No way he was on a four mile base (8000 foot rwy with FBO at the far end).

OP, as others have said, fly your plane but keep an eye out for what's going on around you. If you don't like what you see go around.
 
Twin_Flyer said:
I this "MY SKY" attitude more and more these days. Just last weekend I called ten out to the south just before a 210 called ten to the north. Tower told both of us to report a 4 mile base. He calls and gets cleared to land and I'm told to turn 10 degrees left for spacing and cleared number 2. As I approach the turn to final the controller realizes what's going on and clears me to land number 1 and tells the 210 he's number 2. He reports me in sight but didn't sound to happy about it. I land taxi to the ramp and I'm sitting there cooling down the turbos when this guy finally lands. No way he was on a four mile base (8000 foot rwy with FBO at the far end).

OP, as others have said, fly your plane but keep an eye out for what's going on around you. If you don't like what you see go around.
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You forgot to tell us what was going on.
 
denverpilot said:
Anybody who gets bent out of shape because of being cleared to land, number two, with a whopping five knot overtake speed, is ... a prick of the first order.
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The guy was probably more bent that his Commander could only do 5 more knots than an Archer.
 
2 summers ago with my friend flying left seat we were approaching an unfamiliar uncontrolled airport in northern Michigan: Charlevoix (CVX). We listened intently on CTAF as a couple aircraft of different performance levels negotiated the traffic pattern entry & landing. Meanwhile a jet reported inbound from the west. My buddy did something I thought was quite savvy: he pulled the throttle way back. He explained there was no need to inject himself into the situation in the pattern nor to cause issues for the jet. In a few minutes everyone was down or on final and we proceeded to enter the pattern. The jet thanked us for giving way. I learned something that day.
 
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth I trained all of my primary students in transitioning from cruise (or downwind) speed to just above the white arc and back without changing altitude. A useful skill.

Bob
 
Don't understand the issue. Once in the class D, it's tower's call as to who goes where when. If you're #2, your're #2. No big deal. Everyone gets on the ground safe. Without ADS-B, no one is the wiser. With ADS-B, a potential mid-air could be avoided.

Courtesy goes a long way for safety. At our airport, jet traffic helps us pay the bills. I'm happy to expedite their landing, as I'm usually (never?) in a hurry. I fly for pleasure and non-urgent business.

Fly safe, and enjoy the ride. Let others be irritated if they must.
 
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