Slow flight problem, I’m just not getting it...

[midlifeflyer]

I’ve checked out in a half dozen planes with at least 4 different instructors and they have always had me show them slow flight before landing.

Of course. A checkout is to test your ability to handle the airplane, not just land without breaking it,

 

[Spring Ford]

slow the plane to the verge of stall, and hold altitude and speed right at the point of the stall horn. This is where I have the problem.
He tells me to keep the ball centered. Check. He tells me to keep the ailerons centered and control any tendency to drop a wing with the rudder. Check. But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both.

I think you are right, you can't do both. By using the secondary effect of the rudder to correct roll you are inevitably going to have uncoordinated flight so the ball can't be centered at that time.

Also "to the verge of stall" may not be "slow flight", which some people have been discussing. I don't know, but someone here will.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The thing you’re missing is you are supposed to make the airplane your *****. Not the other way around.

I have never flown anything in GA that didn’t require both aileron and rudder input to maintain control in any regime of flight. AOA and power settings cause the ratio of feet & hands to change. Just fly the dang thing and don’t over think it to the point you stop being in control.

 

[sarangan]

Yup, same here, stalls and slow flight.

Slow flight at the edge of stall is a culmination of many different skills. It's an absolute must in my opinion. If a pilot can't demonstrate turns, climbs and descents with the stall horn blaring, I won't sign them off. The ball is not necessary to know when you are co-ordinated. One should be able to feel it.

 

[David Megginson]

So recently I bought a new plane, and my insurance requires I spend some time with an instructor in it. My regular instructor is out of town on an extended vacation, so I’m using someone new. After a few hours of doing normal checkout type things, he decides he’s going to “take it up a notch” and he starts asking me to do some commercial check ride stuff like lazy eights, chandelles,etc. Ok, at first no problem. So then he asks me to slow the plane to the verge of stall, and hold altitude and speed right at the point of the stall horn. This is where I have the problem.
He tells me to keep the ball centered. Check. He tells me to keep the ailerons centered and control any tendency to drop a wing with the rudder. Check. But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both. If I push hard enough on right rudder to nearly center the ball, the plane starts banking to the right hard, and he’s yelling at me to stop the roll with left rudder. But as I’m stepping on left rudder to stop the roll to the right, he’s yelling, “ no no no you let the ball leave center!” Are both even possible? What am I doing wrong? As a 1000 hour pilot I have to say I’m finding this impossible and I’m not remembering ever having a problem with this before.

If you're accurately representing what your instructor said, then they need to take some remedial lessons. In a stall — especially a power stall — you do use the rudder to pick up a dropped wing, but in slow flight (which is still above the stall) you need to be doing proper coordinated turns, banking with the ailerons and adding just enough rudder to keep the ball centred.

Leading a turn with the rudder any time — but especially in slow flight — is an excellent way to initiate a spin by stalling just one of the wings.

 

[steingar]

Yup, same here, stalls and slow flight.

I’ve checked out in a half dozen planes with at least 4 different instructors and they have always had me show them slow flight before landing.

So you guys do Chandelles whenever you pick up a new airplane? And have the CFI yell at you like a Sergeant Major? That was the OP's experience, and that was what I was responding to. Yeah, I've always done low approach and departure stalls in new airframes. But mostly we concentrated on landing the fool things.

 

[PaulS]

So you guys do Chandelles whenever you pick up a new airplane? And have the CFI yell at you like a Sergeant Major? That was the OP's experience, and that was what I was responding to. Yeah, I've always done low approach and departure stalls in new airframes. But mostly we concentrated on landing the fool things.

No, in fact I've never done a chandelle and would jump at the chance if an instructor asked. I have done stalls and slow flight every time in a check out though. I was mostly agreeing with Salty in that post.

You are absolutely correct though, short of a huge mistake like incipient spin in the pattern or something else as egregious, I will not tolerate an instructor yelling.

 

[dtuuri]

So recently I bought a new plane, and my insurance requires I spend some time with an instructor in it. My regular instructor is out of town on an extended vacation, so I’m using someone new. After a few hours of doing normal checkout type things, he decides he’s going to “take it up a notch” and he starts asking me to do some commercial check ride stuff like lazy eights, chandelles,etc. Ok, at first no problem. So then he asks me to slow the plane to the verge of stall, and hold altitude and speed right at the point of the stall horn. This is where I have the problem.
He tells me to keep the ball centered. Check. He tells me to keep the ailerons centered and control any tendency to drop a wing with the rudder. Check. But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both. If I push hard enough on right rudder to nearly center the ball, the plane starts banking to the right hard, and he’s yelling at me to stop the roll with left rudder. But as I’m stepping on left rudder to stop the roll to the right, he’s yelling, “ no no no you let the ball leave center!” Are both even possible? What am I doing wrong? As a 1000 hour pilot I have to say I’m finding this impossible and I’m not remembering ever having a problem with this before.

Gee, I thought I settled this a week ago:

You can't serve two masters: rudder and "aileron centered". Instead of keeping the ailerons centered—keep the wings level. In slow flight you've got a lot of power, so also a lot of "P" factor which is asymmetrical thrust. The pull on the right side of the prop disk will cause an aerodynamic slip to the left (get a yaw string to see it) as you hold heading with right rudder (keeping the ball centered as told), but the side slip will increase AoA on the left wing (dihedral) and roll you to the right, capiche?

Maybe I misread the problem as one of trying to please your instructor instead of a search for moral support to dump him for "yelling"? What was the purpose of the insurance company's requirement for dual, to learn the avionics or to become familiar with the airplane? Did you express any interest in getting a commercial license at some point? If you flew well and there was still a lot of time remaining to meet insurance I don't see any problem with practicing advanced maneuvers, as you didn't either. So the rub seems to be in the yelling, totally.

All I can say is we're all human and we get frustrated and raise our voices naturally, like when trying to communicate with somebody who speaks a different language—we raise our voices when words fail us. Could the CFI have meant well but was frustrated when it seemed his words couldn't get through to you? Was he being obnoxious? Were you too sensitive? I don't know. I would say it isn't a case of what he did, but how he did it and how you reacted. With 1,000 hours and an attitude the CFI is only there for you to "check a box", so you can get back to doing your own thing your own way in the new airplane, I can see a breakdown in communications—as well as some frustration on the part of your CFI.

 

[TxJim]

I don't get the instructor's insistence on not using aileron input rudder only. Wouldn't this actually be encouraging uncoordinated flight and leading to a cross-control stall?

 

[David Megginson]

No, in fact I've never done a chandelle and would jump at the chance if an instructor asked. I have done stalls and slow flight every time in a check out though. I was mostly agreeing with Salty in that post.

You are absolutely correct though, short of a huge mistake like incipient spin in the pattern or something else as egregious, I will not tolerate an instructor yelling.

I could take the yelling, but an instructor who gave me dangerous advice like making boat turns with the rudder in slow flight would immediately be my ex-instructor.

 

[Country Flier]

Gee, I thought I settled this a week ago:

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Maybe I misread the problem as one of trying to please your instructor instead of a search for moral support to dump him for "yelling"? What was the purpose of the insurance company's requirement for dual, to learn the avionics or to become familiar with the airplane? Did you express any interest in getting a commercial license at some point? If you flew well and there was still a lot of time remaining to meet insurance I don't see any problem with practicing advanced maneuvers, as you didn't either. So the rub seems to be in the yelling, totally.

All I can say is we're all human and we get frustrated and raise our voices naturally, like when trying to communicate with somebody who speaks a different language—we raise our voices when words fail us. Could the CFI have meant well but was frustrated when it seemed his words couldn't get through to you? Was he being obnoxious? Were you too sensitive? I don't know. I would say it isn't a case of what he did, but how he did it and how you reacted. With 1,000 hours and an attitude the CFI is only there for you to "check a box", so you can get back to doing your own thing your own way in the new airplane, I can see a breakdown in communications—as well as some frustration on the part of your CFI.

I didn't dump him for yelling at all. As I originally said back on the first day of my post, I have thick skin, and the yelling, in and of itself, isn't nearly as much of a concern for me as him trying to repeatedly get me to do something that isn't possible, and him getting ****ed that I couldn't do the impossible. THAT, is the problem, and why I dumped him. In hindsight, I guess I knew it wasn't possible, but just wanted to be sure before I dumped him. If that's "moral support" as you put it, so be it.
To answer your other question, no, I have no interest in getting my commercial. The maneuvers were his suggestion as just something to do to burn hours with an instructor, because he originally said I was handling the aircraft to the point that repeating a normal checkout would be boring. I've already found a new instructor and I'm getting some instruction that I would now call valuable, as opposed to frustrating.