Slow flight problem, I’m just not getting it...

Country Flier

Country Flier

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So recently I bought a new plane, and my insurance requires I spend some time with an instructor in it. My regular instructor is out of town on an extended vacation, so I’m using someone new. After a few hours of doing normal checkout type things, he decides he’s going to “take it up a notch” and he starts asking me to do some commercial check ride stuff like lazy eights, chandelles,etc. Ok, at first no problem. So then he asks me to slow the plane to the verge of stall, and hold altitude and speed right at the point of the stall horn. This is where I have the problem.
He tells me to keep the ball centered. Check. He tells me to keep the ailerons centered and control any tendency to drop a wing with the rudder. Check. But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both. If I push hard enough on right rudder to nearly center the ball, the plane starts banking to the right hard, and he’s yelling at me to stop the roll with left rudder. But as I’m stepping on left rudder to stop the roll to the right, he’s yelling, “ no no no you let the ball leave center!” Are both even possible? What am I doing wrong? As a 1000 hour pilot I have to say I’m finding this impossible and I’m not remembering ever having a problem with this before.
 
You can't serve two masters: rudder and "aileron centered". Instead of keeping the ailerons centered—keep the wings level. In slow flight you've got a lot of power, so also a lot of "P" factor which is asymmetrical thrust. The pull on the right side of the prop disk will cause an aerodynamic slip to the left (get a yaw string to see it) as you hold heading with right rudder (keeping the ball centered as told), but the side slip will increase AoA on the left wing (dihedral) and roll you to the right, capiche?
 
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To do flight a minimum controllable speed you use both rudder and aileron.

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texasclouds said:
If he was yelling at me, I’d land and tell him to get out of my plane. If he is getting frustrated, then he doesn’t know how to teach you properly.
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Yeah that’s what I’m now thinking as well. He’s an old timer, and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt (and I have thick skin too), but after hearing him repeatedly yell I’m wondering why I’m paying for this.
 
Country Flier said:
Yeah that’s what I’m now thinking as well. He’s an old timer, and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt (and I have thick skin too), but after hearing him repeatedly yell I’m wondering why I’m paying for this.
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Sounds like a good enough reason to fire him and look for someone else.

I’ve never been required to perform slow flight without the use of aileron - that’s part of the maneuver in its proper form. It’d be interesting to ask him to demonstrate it and see how he does. :rolleyes:
 
How are you supposed to turn in slow flight without ailerons? I haven't done it in a while, but we used to fly around in slow flight, making turns, etc. Once you get set up, it is kind of relaxing, especially in the late afternoon/evening.
 
Me three... ask him to demonstrate... IF you ever fly with him again!

Not a big fan of screamers.
 
Yup move on.

rule one of all flying- Fly the plane... when it requires an input we gotta give it that. To be told not to use a control surface at all is odd. Now obviously we aren’t supposed to use the aileron to pick the wing up but that doesn’t seem like your struggle, your struggle is you want to fly the plane and someone’s yelling at you not to do what you know you need to do...
 
So this morning I fired him...the more I thought about it, I was only using him to check a box, not to get training. In addition to the problem's with the slow flight and him yelling, the guy admitted he didn't know how to use my G1000, or the TKS known-ice system (TKS is new to me as well). I was hoping to just get the insurance part covered now, then wait until my regular instructor returns in six weeks to get some more training on the TKS. I now will probably just wait the six weeks and get it all at once, or maybe I'll call my instructor for a local recommendation from him.
 
It sounds like he exposed a problem in your controlling the airplane. That has nothing to do with your glass panel or TKS.
 
The yelling aside, I think there is too much focus on "the ball" in slow flight. Unless it's under the hood or in the clouds, slow flight is a visual maneuver. At least part of the goal is learning the visual cues outside the airplane.

This post made me think. Earlier this month, a vacation (yay!) gave me the opportunity to do a Cirrus refresher. Included slow flight. Even after 9 years, I don't recall looking at the "ball" even once.
 
Stewartb said:
It sounds like he exposed a problem in your controlling the airplane. That has nothing to do with your glass panel or TKS.
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Maybe. To me it sounded more like a problem trying to meet the commands of the instructor (which may or may not have been reasonable) than a problem flying the airplane.

Hopefully CFI #2 will help resolve it.

PS. @Country Flier, do not treat it as "checking a box." After over 30 years and over 20 as a CFI, I still manage to learn something on every flight.
 
Rudder response in slow flight is very different in my two planes. The falling leaf stall is meant to familiarize us with rudder, or so I was led to believe. It sure feels different in a Cessna than in a Cub. In either case in stall or near stall you use rudder to lift the wing. Riding the rudder to center the ball ignores that. Using aileron is the wrong response.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Maybe. To me it sounded more like a problem trying to meet the commands of the instructor (which may or may not have been reasonable) than a problem flying the airplane.

Hopefully CFI #2 will help resolve it.

PS. @Country Flier, do not treat it as "checking a box." After over 30 years and over 20 as a CFI, I still manage to learn something on every flight.
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I look at it the same way. I'm always trying to learn something new, whether I'm receiving training for my profession, or for flying, or for whatever.
 
It’s hard to learn anything when the guy beside you is confusing you.
 
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Never mind, tired post after covid shot.
 
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Yes, you can pick up a wing with rudder, (we do it all the time), but only to a certain extent. At some point you're going to need an aileron adjustment.

In all the slow flight and stall training/practice I have done, I never paid attention to the ball. I paid attention to the horizon. If you ever actually NEED your slow flight skills, survival, not passenger comfort, will be the primary goal.

Glad you ditched him. Hope you told him why.
 
slow flight...........mixture full rich.......prop full forward........throttle full forward.........pitch up 90*............slow flight.
 
Ya, I don’t look at the ball in my c-120 either. It doesn’t, nor has it ever, have one.

My Chief didn’t have one stock, someone did add one at some point.

Point is, flying by reference to one probably isn’t the ultimate goal as noted. It sure didn’t seem to be back in the “day”.

Like all instruments, it requires interpretation, part of the skill. Nothing on that panel is stand alone. Even while flying instruments, that is the case.

The same applies to instructors and all associated with them. No ONE has all the right “stuff”. Kinda have to assimilate what you learn from them as well.
 
Why in the name of Odin is this guy doing this stuff to check you out in a new aircraft? They're supposed to make certain you can land the fool thing.
 
How comfortable are you with full stalls? It might help to find a CFI who will teach you the falling leaf and really learn how to pick up a wing with the rudder, then integrate that into "feel" into slow flight.
 
Country Flier said:
But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both. If I push hard enough on right rudder to nearly center the ball, the plane starts banking to the right hard, and he’s yelling at me to stop the roll with left rudder. But as I’m stepping on left rudder to stop the roll to the right, he’s yelling, “ no no no you let the ball leave center!”
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Time for "I'm having some trouble seeing what you want me to do here so how about you take it and demonstrate for me what I should be doing. Your airplane. And since I'm the one paying you in this deal, please stop yelling at me. I'm sitting right here. I can hear you fine."
 
I wonder what he would require for planes with bungees that connect the ailerons with the rudder?

Agree with the firing; Beyond flying technique, sounded like a personality mismatch. CFI'ing is supposed to be a team effort and, for a new plane checkout, fun.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The yelling aside, I think there is too much focus on "the ball" in slow flight. Unless it's under the hood or in the clouds, slow flight is a visual maneuver. At least part of the goal is learning the visual cues outside the airplane.

This post made me think. Earlier this month, a vacation (yay!) gave me the opportunity to do a Cirrus refresher. Included slow flight. Even after 9 years, I don't recall looking at the "ball" even once.
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I understand your comment, but less experienced pilots need the ball.
 
Country Flier said:
So recently I bought a new plane, and my insurance requires I spend some time with an instructor in it. My regular instructor is out of town on an extended vacation, so I’m using someone new. After a few hours of doing normal checkout type things, he decides he’s going to “take it up a notch” and he starts asking me to do some commercial check ride stuff like lazy eights, chandelles,etc. Ok, at first no problem. So then he asks me to slow the plane to the verge of stall, and hold altitude and speed right at the point of the stall horn. This is where I have the problem.
He tells me to keep the ball centered. Check. He tells me to keep the ailerons centered and control any tendency to drop a wing with the rudder. Check. But here’s the problem: I seem to be able to do one,OR, the other, but not both. If I push hard enough on right rudder to nearly center the ball, the plane starts banking to the right hard, and he’s yelling at me to stop the roll with left rudder. But as I’m stepping on left rudder to stop the roll to the right, he’s yelling, “ no no no you let the ball leave center!” Are both even possible? What am I doing wrong? As a 1000 hour pilot I have to say I’m finding this impossible and I’m not remembering ever having a problem with this before.
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I would recommend you focus on an outside obeject to maintain co-ordination rather than the ball.
midlifeflyer said:
The yelling aside, I think there is too much focus on "the ball" in slow flight. Unless it's under the hood or in the clouds, slow flight is a visual maneuver. At least part of the goal is learning the visual cues outside the airplane.

This post made me think. Earlier this month, a vacation (yay!) gave me the opportunity to do a Cirrus refresher. Included slow flight. Even after 9 years, I don't recall looking at the "ball" even once.
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I would agree with that. I don't recall paying much attention to the ball during a stall or slow flight. In fact, once I recall looking at the ball during a power-on stall and commenting why it was not centered, yet everything felt co-ordinated and it stalled straight ahead (no wing drop).

The whole purpose of this exercise is to get a feel for how the airplane reacts at slow speeds, not to follow an instrument indication.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
How comfortable are you with full stalls? It might help to find a CFI who will teach you the falling leaf and really learn how to pick up a wing with the rudder, then integrate that into "feel" into slow flight.
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Very comfortable, actually. In my younger/braver days, I owned a clip wing and took full advantage of stalls/spins/and some light aerobatic training. Yes, I've done falling leaf waaaay back many years ago. I've never in the past had a problem with slow flight...and I also don't think I've ever given attention to the ball during the slow flight before. Once settled in on power and pitch, I usually just put in a moderate "feels right by the seat of your pants" amount of rudder and then go from there.
 
steingar said:
Why in the name of Odin is this guy doing this stuff to check you out in a new aircraft? They're supposed to make certain you can land the fool thing.
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Are you saying a checkout shouldn’t include slow flight?
 
Clip4 said:
I understand your comment, but less experienced pilots need the ball.
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I don't agree. The ball is to correct for yaw. When I was teaching primary, I spent a lot of time on learning visual cues for most everything, including recognizing yaw. Even now in flight reviews, transitions, and checkouts, if someone is not doing slow flight well, first thing I do is cover the ball.
 
PaulS said:
Ifly Cirrus now, they have a cuffed wing where the inner portion of the wing stalls before the outer portion. They say to use coordinated control input to keep the wings level. On one stall in that plane, a wing dropped. I guess law of primacy took over and I stomped the opposite rudder to bring it level again. Aileron was an afterthought. It worked well
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The Cirrus technique is no different. If you say, flew, a Cessna single before, you may not have noticed there is a twist in the wings with a lower angle of incidence outboard. Same purpose-having the wing root stall first to retain some aileron effectiveness in the initial stage of a stall. Rudder is still "primary" for a dropped wing.

PHAK 5-25

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midlifeflyer said:
The Cirrus technique is no different. If you say, flew, a Cessna single before, you may not have noticed there is a twist in the wings with a lower angle of incidence outboard. Same purpose-having the wing root stall first to retain some aileron effectiveness in the initial stage of a stall. Rudder is still "primary" for a dropped wing.

PHAK 5-25

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The Cirrus technique is different. The twist in wings helps, but isn't nearly as effective as the cuffed wing design of the Cirrus. Also, the Cirrus POH specifically says that if a wing drops during a stall, to recover using "rolling wings level with coordinated use of the controls".

I was surprised in previous conversations with pilots who had never heard of rudder being primary control in or near stall.

Unfortunately there was what appears to have been a stall spin Cirrus accident yesterday, makes me wonder if Cirrus screwed this procedure up.
 
PaulS said:
The Cirrus technique is different. The twist in wings helps, but isn't nearly as effective as the cuffed wing design of the Cirrus. Also, the Cirrus POH specifically says that if a wing drops during a stall, to recover using "rolling wings level with coordinated use of the controls".

I was surprised in previous conversations with pilots who had never heard of rudder being primary control in or near stall.

Unfortunately there was what appears to have been a stall spin Cirrus accident yesterday, makes me wonder if Cirrus screwed this procedure up.
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Maybe.

It's actually coordinated use in other aircraft too. That's why the twist. Some things get lost in the mists of time but IMO, it's taught with rudder only technique for a very simple human factor reason. There's a natural tendency to use the ailerons, period. Someone along the way figured out that it was easier to overcome that tendency by teaching rudder only. Plus, it absolutely needs to be rudder to stop yaw and no aileron if you manage to enter a spin. Just teaching a good habit.

I just had a short discussion about stalls with the instructor on my recent refresher flight. I told him the story of when I joined COPA some years back when I suddenly had access to a Cirrus. It was back when Cirrus still had a really bad safety record. They were probably still teaching 120 in the pattern back then too. (Cirrus flamers: I had become much, much, better. Cirrus has an excellent training program.) There was a discussion about why the DA40 had a much better safety record. Someone said the Diamond was more stable or some such nonsense. I replied that I had done falling leaf stalls in both. Boy, did I get flamed for even suggesting doing a maneuver outside the syllabus! Cracked him up.

You see it in other areas. Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. The reality is, when you have power, pitch and power are coordinated. But the uninitiated natural tendency is to dive when too high and pull back when too low, foregoing power adjustment altogether. So we teach using a technique designed to overcome it. Rudder turns on the FAS of an ILS is the same concept. It's just the easiest way to avoid overcorrecting.
 
I don't agree with using rudder only in slow flight. The point of slow flight is to fly slowly without stalling. Stalling during slow flight is disqualifying per the maneuver's completion standards. You should not be getting random sudden wing drops during slowflight. That sounds more like a falling leaf stall, which is a different maneuver.
 
steingar said:
Why in the name of Odin is this guy doing this stuff to check you out in a new aircraft? They're supposed to make certain you can land the fool thing.
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I’ve checked out in a half dozen planes with at least 4 different instructors and they have always had me show them slow flight before landing.
 
Salty said:
I’ve checked out in a half dozen planes with at least 4 different instructors and they have always had me show them slow flight before landing.
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Yup, same here, stalls and slow flight.
 
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