Slick magneto problems ?

[Scrabo]

We have been experiencing some starting problems the last few months, very intermittent issue but this pass weekend has left the bird grounded at another airport.

Today our A&P pulled the left mag and it is on the bench at the moment.

The plane is “new to us” for about 11 months now but records indicate that magneto was rebuilt about two years ago. The A&P has indicated that Slick magneto have had problems apparently caused by poor quality imported internal components are common these days, many are not making it past 150 hours, which is about where this mag is.

Anyone else experienced this or heard about it ?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Just trade it in for a new one

 

[James331]

Get bendix mags.

My plane had slicks, swapped them for bendix the second one of them coughed funny.

 

[kyleb]

All of my airplanes have had Slicks (luck of the draw), and I've never had any problems in something like 1700 hours. However, Slicks, particularly the ones with impulse couplings (often the left mag) do have a worse reputation than Bendix mags.

 

[Tom-D]

Get bendix mags.

My plane had slicks, swapped them for bendix the second one of them coughed funny.

Actually no, they are now TCM electronic, better in every way than slicks.

 

[James331]

Actually no, they are now TCM electronic, better in every way than slicks.

So bendix are better, think we're saying the same thing here tom

 

[Tom-D]

So bendix are better, think we're saying the same thing here tom

There is no Bendix anymore,... the production certificate was bought by TCM many years ago, TCM is making a magneto from that old production certificate That are Called TCM electronic, If you are buying Bendix mags you are buying used mags that have been rebuilt.

 

[simtech]

I have slicks on my Cherokee...at 950 hours on them my left one decided to crap out away from home. $800 (they replaced the distributor block and something else, the impulse was fine)later it was running and has been doing great since. The right one I sent out for its 500 hr (at close to 1000 hrs) and it too has been running fine. Now that I say that Ill have problems but anyway over 900 hours before my first problem with slicks.

 

[James331]

There is no Bendix anymore,... the production certificate was bought by TCM many years ago, TCM is making a magneto from that old production certificate That are Called TCM electronic, If you are buying Bendix mags you are buying used mags that have been rebuilt.

Which is still better than a slick

I have slicks on my Cherokee...at 950 hours on them my left one decided to crap out away from home. $800 (they replaced the distributor block and something else, the impulse was fine)later it was running and has been doing great since. The right one I sent out for its 500 hr (at close to 1000 hrs) and it too has been running fine. Now that I say that Ill have problems but anyway over 900 hours before my first problem with slicks.

Try that on a lake with no name, no cell or VHF reception.

Bendix > hiking and surviving till you find humanity again lol

 

[simtech]

Which is still better than a slick




Try that on a lake with no name, no cell or VHF reception.

Bendix > hiking and surviving till you find humanity again lol

Eh...anything can fail and at the most inopportune time, even the perceived best and most expensive things.

I was stranded on a river last year on my jetski. I was pizzed, I could barely make it to shore and drifitng down stream. When I got to the bank and had to walk it back with a rope I swear I could have just let it float away. Had it been a plane on water...ugh!!! hahaha

 

[Tom-D]

Which is still better than a slick

"Amen"

 

[James331]

Eh...anything can fail and at the most inopportune time, even the perceived best and most expensive things.

I was stranded on a river last year on my jetski. I was pizzed, I could barely make it to shore and drifitng down stream. When I got to the bank and had to walk it back with a rope I swear I could have just let it float away. Had it been a plane on water...ugh!!! hahaha

True, but I like to bet my odds, and slicks are not the odds I'd want to run

 

[Tom-D]

True, but I like to bet my odds, and slicks are not the odds I'd want to run

Can't wait until we get certified dual electronic ignition, No more heavy mags, impulse couplings, and 30 dollar spark plugs.

 

[GRG55]

We have been experiencing some starting problems the last few months, very intermittent issue but this pass weekend has left the bird grounded at another airport.

Today our A&P pulled the left mag and it is on the bench at the moment.

The plane is “new to us” for about 11 months now but records indicate that magneto was rebuilt about two years ago. The A&P has indicated that Slick magneto have had problems apparently caused by poor quality imported internal components are common these days, many are not making it past 150 hours, which is about where this mag is.

Anyone else experienced this or heard about it ?

I have Slick as well. If you have them repaired you need to have it done by a grizzled old veteran who knows what they are doing. I had the LH mag on the LH engine done at one of my local airport shops. Twice. After third failure I just bought a new mag. I've had the two RH engine mag 500 hr kits done by one of those aforementioned veterans (owns three high wingers and works out of his farm strip shop south of the city). They have been running sweet as can be for two years now.

Having said that, wanna bet one of them quits tomorrow.

 

[Scrabo]

The repair shop has indicated that the spark from the left magneto is weak and inconsistent. This apparently is not unusual as Champion purchased Slick Magnetos some time ago and outsourced component manufacturing to China.

These newly manufactured Champion parts have had a tendency to exhibit intermittent problems, then fail. Champion parts were used when the left mag was rebuilt in May 2016.

Lycon at our local field will rebuild thr mag with new Non-Champion parts.

 

[kyleb]

Can't wait until we get certified dual electronic ignition, No more heavy mags, impulse couplings, and 30 dollar spark plugs.

In ~1100 hours, I have had 3 electronic ignition failures. All hardware issues. It'll take decades of refinement (IMO) before electronic ignitions are substantially more reliable in our application(s) than our archaic, but mature, magnetos.

 

[GRG55]

In ~1100 hours, I have had 3 electronic ignition failures. All hardware issues. It'll take decades of refinement (IMO) before electronic ignitions are substantially more reliable in our application(s) than our archaic, but mature, magnetos.

One of the problems with electronic ignitions in airplanes is the repeated heat soaking under the cowl after flights cooks the solid state electronics.

 

[kyleb]

One of the problems with electronic ignitions in airplanes is the repeated heat soaking under the cowl after flights cooks the solid state electronics.

I had two hall effect sensors go bad and then the board in my ignition went bad. Could certainly have been heat related. The manufacturer has updated the installation instructions and recommends new installations go on the cool side of the firewall.

 

[Raymo]

The quality issue with Slick mags was due to some inferior parts 10+ years ago (circa 2006, if I recall). If you have one from that time, you should send it out for a rebuild. Newer and older ones are fine. The OH cost of a Slick is as much or more than a new one but for around $300, you can have the IRAN inspection done. It'll be like new and is recommended to be done every 500 hrs with a timing check every annual or 100 hrs. If the timing must be adjusted more than a few degrees (keep track yearly), it is a sign that internal parts are wearing and will need the IRAN.

 

[James331]

Isn't there also a 500hr inspection for slicks?

 

[Tom-D]

Isn't there also a 500hr inspection for slicks?

slick mag service bulletin
there are a bunch of SBs on slick, Want to do them? or do we pick and choose which ones ?

 

[Lance F]

For what it's worth Champion recommends, and supports, one and only one overhaul shop. That is Quality Aircraft Accessories in Ft. Lauderdale. All replaceable parts are new and contrary to numerous OWTs it's definitely cheaper than a new one. Prices vary depending on whether you want to do an exchange or have them overhaul yours. You can call and get the details on your particular Slick mag. 954-493-9262. I have experience with both Slick and Bendix. With either one 500 hours is the limit I'd ever go without at least an IRAN from a very reputable and experienced mag shop. Such a knowledgeable shop will pick up any and all SBs. I personally would not trust the 500 hour check to your local A&P.

 

[mondtster]

One of the problems with electronic ignitions in airplanes is the repeated heat soaking under the cowl after flights cooks the solid state electronics.

How is the repeated heat soaking on an airplane any different than that on modern vehicles? Their electronics live fairly well.

I personally don't think there is enough difference in engine efficiency to make switching to electronic ignition worth it. Plus, the electronic ignitions that I've seen aren't particularly impressive in design and construction. When a company comes up with a simple and inexpensive electronic ignition based on common, time tested automotive ignition components that I can get at a parts store in BFE I might consider giving it a shot. Having electronic spark retard for starting rather than expensive impulse couplers that wear out is pretty appealing though.

 

[Tom-D]

How is the repeated heat soaking on an airplane any different than that on modern vehicles? Their electronics live fairly well.

I personally don't think there is enough difference in engine efficiency to make switching to electronic ignition worth it. Plus, the electronic ignitions that I've seen aren't particularly impressive in design and construction. When a company comes up with a simple and inexpensive electronic ignition based on common, time tested automotive ignition components that I can get at a parts store in BFE I might consider giving it a shot. Having electronic spark retard for starting rather than expensive impulse couplers that wear out is pretty appealing though.

http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html

This on a 0-200, along with 9 to 1 compression pistons from Klouse Engineering you get near 150 horse power. Plus a couple other things like a tuned exhaust, balance it, run it at 3000 RPM.
But what the hell, it'll push a VariEZ to 200 MPH.

 

[GRG55]

How is the repeated heat soaking on an airplane any different than that on modern vehicles? Their electronics live fairly well.

...

Because your tightly-cowled, high specific output, air-cooled aircraft engine creates temperatures within the stationary cowling (after shut-down) that are a hell of a lot higher than your water-cooled, not-so-tightly enclosed automotive engine.

Why do you think so many injected aircraft engine fuel supply lines routinely vapor lock after being shut down for a little while, but that condition is virtually unheard of in fuel injected automobiles.

Heat cooks electronics. Higher heat cooks them a lot faster.

 

[kyleb]

http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html

This on a 0-200, along with 9 to 1 compression pistons from Klouse Engineering you get near 150 horse power. Plus a couple other things like a tuned exhaust, balance it, run it at 3000 RPM.
But what the hell, it'll push a VariEZ to 200 MPH.

You don't get markedly more power from EI and/or fuel injection. You get better efficiency. You may get easier starting. In automobiles, you get better emission control.

 

[mondtster]

Because your tightly-cowled, high specific output, air-cooled aircraft engine creates temperatures within the stationary cowling (after shut-down) that are a hell of a lot higher than your water-cooled, not-so-tightly enclosed automotive engine.

Why do you think so many injected aircraft engine fuel supply lines routinely vapor lock after being shut down for a little while, but that condition is virtually unheard of in fuel injected automobiles.

Heat cooks electronics. Higher heat cooks them a lot faster.

I bet there isn't as much different in under hood temps as you're implying. Or do you have actual measured data to prove it?

 

[Dan Thomas]

I bet there isn't as much different in under hood temps as you're implying. Or do you have actual measured data to prove it?

It's not just heat. Vibration is a much bigger factor in aircraft due to the lower RPMs, larger cylinders and high power levels. Anything attached to the engine suffers, and even stuff attached to the firewall gets pounded quite a bit, some of that from the pulsation of the cooling air by the passing prop blades.

Mechanics will find wiring and plumbing attached to an aircraft engine chafed and worn much more than with any modern auto engine. Baffling and seals crack or shred. The sheet metal or plastic stuff on an auto engine outlasts the car.

 

[mondtster]

It's not just heat. Vibration is a much bigger factor in aircraft due to the lower RPMs, larger cylinders and high power levels. Anything attached to the engine suffers, and even stuff attached to the firewall gets pounded quite a bit, some of that from the pulsation of the cooling air by the passing prop blades.

Mechanics will find wiring and plumbing attached to an aircraft engine chafed and worn much more than with any modern auto engine. Baffling and seals crack or shred. The sheet metal or plastic stuff on an auto engine outlasts the car.

I can buy vibration, to a point. However, there are plenty of vehicle electronics attached to diesel engines that operate at similar engine speeds and vibrate as much or more than aircraft engines and they survive that heat and vibration ok. One of the things I do at my primary job is vibration survey work on diesel engines and their components. You'd probably be amazed at how much vibration there is and some of the components that are vibrating a significant amount.

By far the biggest chafing and wear problems I've found under the cowl of an airplane were mechanic induced. IOW, if people would take the time to properly secure stuff the problems would be minimized. There are some things that don't package or mount well however, and nothing can be done about that.

Back to the electronic ignition comments. Nobody ever said that all the components needed to be mounted under the cowl and subjected to the heat. The main control box could be mounted in the passenger compartment with adequate vibration isolation and cooling, requiring only the coils and crank/cam position sensors to be installed under the cowl. The same way many auto manufacturers do it...

 

[GRG55]

I bet there isn't as much different in under hood temps as you're implying. Or do you have actual measured data to prove it?

LOL I fully expected exactly this predictable response from you. I gave you the anecdotal evidence with the fuel injection observations.
Should that not be satisfactory and you require further evidence, tests, data, experiments, studies, contemplations, research reports or otherwise I encourage you to invest the effort to seek those out, primarily to ensure they meet your exacting standards.

 

[nrpetersen]

Auto under hood hardware also has to deal with the considerable rejected heat from the air conditioner AND the heat from the radiator, all before the engine compartment. There's no shortage of cooler air in an aircraft forward to the baffling. I can put my hand on a baffling-back magneto (just barely but with no magneto blast tubes) immediately after landing. Precautions for heat can and have to be taken at the design stage with electronics. With the silicon stuff nowadays it isn't the real problem. Even my lawn mower operates with a solid state ignition and doesn't seem to have gotten any design or vibration considerations.

 

[kyleb]

Auto under hood hardware also has to deal with the considerable rejected heat from the air conditioner AND the heat from the radiator, all before the engine compartment.

A 200 hp aircraft engine produces 150 hp or more for most of every flight. A 200 hp auto engine is producing a fraction of that power for most of its duty cycle (almost certainly 50 hp or less).

Which has more heat to dissipate?

 

[Raymo]

Because your tightly-cowled, high specific output, air-cooled aircraft engine creates temperatures within the stationary cowling (after shut-down) that are a hell of a lot higher than your water-cooled, not-so-tightly enclosed automotive engine.

Why do you think so many injected aircraft engine fuel supply lines routinely vapor lock after being shut down for a little while, but that condition is virtually unheard of in fuel injected automobiles.

Heat cooks electronics. Higher heat cooks them a lot faster.

Auto FI and aircraft FI are totally different. Autos run at much higher pressures, which helps avoid vapor lock.

I run an Emagair P-Mag, which has a blast tube, as specified by the MFG for cooling. The record highest temperatures during operation and have had no heat related problems as long as the cooling blast tube is properly installed, which many magneto installations also require.

LOP operations with a single P-Mag cuts my cruise fuel burn by 1-1.5 gallon per hour due to timing advance and improved spark. Plus I can run auto plugs, which are a fraction of the price of the standard aviation plug. They get replaced every 100 hrs; not worth the time to clean.

Several electronic ignitions have been flying for many thousands of hours and have proven to be more reliable and economical than magnetos - especially the impulse coupled versions.

 

[mondtster]

A 200 hp aircraft engine produces 150 hp or more for most of every flight. A 200 hp auto engine is producing a fraction of that power for most of its duty cycle (almost certainly 50 hp or less).

Which has more heat to dissipate?

Your question is valid, and something I had considered prior to my comments. My opinion still stands, not all automotive engines and controls live such a sheltered life.

As I mentioned before, I do testing on Diesel engines. Many of the applications they are in (including OTR trucks and off road applications) see much higher power outputs and heat than an aircraft engine sees. Many of these engines have electronic modules (including the engine ECU) bolted right on the side of the engine and have exhaust aftertreatment also mounted right next to it. Despite all this, the electronics are rarely a problem.

My suspicion is that many of the aircraft electronic ignition systems are simply not designed or tested to put up with these abuses, hence the failures. Relying on the consumer to decide where and how to install some of the components doesn't help matters either.

 

[Tom-D]

You don't get markedly more power from EI and/or fuel injection. You get better efficiency. You may get easier starting. In automobiles, you get better emission control.

Better fuel management will always get you better power.
If you don't believe me try this, upon reaching cruise altitude, level off, trim to stay level, start leaning, watch the VSI, at a certain point your aircraft will start to climb, because it is making more power than it did when you started to lean.
Now it is making better power, trim nose down to level, it will show better speed.

WHY?

 

[hotprops]

every time I had a early failure with a slick mag it was failures of the p lead to the cap due to over tightening the p lead nut. when slick says 12 inch lbs they mean it. Over tight pulls on the lug and grounds out the capacitor ,sometimes it is a intermittent .

 

[kyleb]

Better fuel management will always get you better power.
If you don't believe me try this, upon reaching cruise altitude, level off, trim to stay level, start leaning, watch the VSI, at a certain point your aircraft will start to climb, because it is making more power than it did when you started to lean.
Now it is making better power, trim nose down to level, it will show better speed.

At "full tilt boogie", you need to run a slightly rich mixture and around 25* BTDC on our slow turning engines to generate best power. That's just as easy to do with a carb and mags as with more sophisticated and expensive hardware.

Best efficiency is entirely different and you can get substantially better efficiency running a hot, advanced spark at a lean condition at lower power setting with the more complicated gear.

 

[Tom-D]

At "full tilt boogie", you need to run a slightly rich mixture and around 25* BTDC on our slow turning engines to generate best power. That's just as easy to do with a carb and mags as with more sophisticated and expensive hardware.

Best efficiency is entirely different and you can get substantially better efficiency running a hot, advanced spark at a lean condition at lower power setting with the more complicated gear.

Depends upon who's theory you believe, Lindberg, explained it many many years ago. and is the method the military used for decades.

 

[James331]

Better fuel management will always get you better power.
If you don't believe me try this, upon reaching cruise altitude, level off, trim to stay level, start leaning, watch the VSI, at a certain point your aircraft will start to climb, because it is making more power than it did when you started to lean.
Now it is making better power, trim nose down to level, it will show better speed.

WHY?

How about just lean off CHT/EGT

 

[kyleb]

Depends upon who's theory you believe, Lindberg, explained it many many years ago. and is the method the military used for decades.

Lindberg was going for best efficiency, not max power.