Skybus is dead tonight

Not a good week for the airlines.

But holy cow $10 airfares!!! How can they ever have hoped to have that work in their business plan?
 
smigaldi said:
Not a good week for the airlines.

But holy cow $10 airfares!!! How can they ever have hoped to have that work in their business plan?
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Those were only random I think for prices. Most fares were at least $25. They were making it work till the fuel crisis hit.

Just another blow to our economy here in Ohio. Worries me that I will have a hard time making it as a Commercial pilot when I finally get my CFI as there will be more furloughed pilots around.

David
 
What a shame, they had only just started up in Wilmington, DE (ILG). They were booking 90 of 149 seats on avg. or so I am told from the ground crews.

So much for service out of wilmington.
 
Captain Jared and I were just placing bets on when they would fold, last night. One of my favorite captains to fly with went there about three months ago...this sucks pretty hard for him.
 
Well, THAT venture lasted long: :no:

The fledgling low-cost carrier Skybus Airlines is scheduled to launch service on March 13 from Gary-Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/transportation/chi-gettingaround25feb25,0,1427306.column
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March 24, 2008

Rail terminals at airports are usually bustling places, but South Shore Line trains go right past the Clark Road crossing near Gary-Chicago International Airport—except on the rare occasions when passengers ask a conductor to stop the train.

Only one person, with a backpack over his shoulder and a Skybus Airlines ticket to Greensboro, N.C., tucked in a jacket pocket, requested to exit the train at the Clark Road flag stop Tuesday morning.

That was me.

The intent was to assess the door-to-door travel experience of flying from Gary-Chicago under the new Skybus service that started March 13. Skybus offers the only regularly scheduled flights at Gary.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/transportation/chi-gettingaround_24mar24,0,4675377.column
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April 5, 2008

COLUMBUS, Ohio - Low-cost carrier Skybus Airlines is shutting down Saturday and plans to file for bankruptcy protection next week, becoming the latest of the nation's airlines to fall because of rising fuel costs and a slowing economy.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/chi-skybus-travel-bankruptcy-story,0,5187149.story
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Only a week short of a whole month of service. :dunno:
 
smigaldi said:
Makes you wonder just how successful Peotone will be. Probably be fighting for #1 of the bottom with Mid-America by St. Louis.
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Peotone will be very successful. It will successfully allow pols that haven't had the privilege yet supervise the awarding of $billions in contracts.

Oh. You meant successfully used as passenger airport. :rolleyes: Not so much.
 
This is sad. I flew Skybus a couple times over the last year and they provided the best customer service of any airline I ever flew. Not to mention, their planes were new and nice.
 
LeonardMack said:
This is sad. I flew Skybus a couple times over the last year and they provided the best customer service of any airline I ever flew. Not to mention, their planes were new and nice.
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And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
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I do not believe that makes them scum. Just because they choose to work for lower wages does not make the horrible people...it just makes them practical and willing to work for what they can get. Sometimes the best job is not the one who pays the most. In fact, I would consider my two best paying jobs to be the worst jobs I have ever had. It could be that these pilots considered the quality of the aircraft or the way the administration treated them to be more important than their paycheck.

If anything, making such claims make you seem petty, IMHO.
 
mikea said:
Oh. You meant successfully used as passenger airport. :rolleyes: Not so much.
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Yeah :)

I cannot wait to see the airspace. I am sure I will have to fly to Champaign before Chi-App will allow a turn tot he east. I already have to head to Peotone before an east turn is allowed.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
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I guess I'm scum too, since I fly for one of the lower paying regionals who is "stealing" routes from X-Jet and airplanes from Pinnacle.

How about the "regionals" that fly from Boston to Tampa, or New York to Dallas in their 50 to 76 seat "commuter" planes...they're certainly not hurting the industry as they're taking routes from the main line. Skybus wasn't doing anything to hurt the majesty of the professional pilot. They were a niche airline with a poorly planned business model, but that has nothing to do with their pilots. If a guy wants to fly a Bus for $30-something an hour between Columbus and Chicago, how's that going to hurt the future generations of pilots? The company wasn't formed as a whipsaw (I don't think Delta is going to say, "hey, lets pay our pilots $30 an hour starting next week...it's worked for Skybus), and their plan was to raise the rates once they were established...they just never got that far.

If you don't like the company, don't work there, but don't try to paint their entire pilot group as bad people...that's not going to do anything for the public's view on airline pilots, and it's simply unprofessional to do to a fellow pilot.
 
Teller1900 said:
I guess I'm scum too, since I fly for one of the lower paying regionals who is "stealing" routes from X-Jet and airplanes from Pinnacle.
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Matt, I'm happy to see you come clean on this issue. :D

Auburn or HCS or whatever... man, that was way off base. Those pilots went to work for an airline whom they saw as having great potential. And, had it not been for a sudden increase in fuel taking out their cash resources, I think it would have gone far. But, there are costs in any new start-up and this one was no different.

Look at how many years Amazon operated at a loss before going into the black? Were those employees scum as well because it cut into other "legitimate" online retailers or big box book stores?

I'm looking for the right gig with a flight school to work for. I'd rather be with a small outfit doing it right with healthy management and excellent potential than work for a large school that simply has the volume but no quality. I'm sure many of those pilots felt the same way and saw an opportunity.

It was tried once, it will be tried again. In fact, I wonder how many naysayers are now biting their tongue from statements made when Jet Blue first took off?
 
Teller1900 said:
I guess I'm scum too, since I fly for one of the lower paying regionals who is "stealing" routes from X-Jet and airplanes from Pinnacle.

How about the "regionals" that fly from Boston to Tampa, or New York to Dallas in their 50 to 76 seat "commuter" planes...they're certainly not hurting the industry as they're taking routes from the main line. Skybus wasn't doing anything to hurt the majesty of the professional pilot. They were a niche airline with a poorly planned business model, but that has nothing to do with their pilots. If a guy wants to fly a Bus for $30-something an hour between Columbus and Chicago, how's that going to hurt the future generations of pilots? The company wasn't formed as a whipsaw (I don't think Delta is going to say, "hey, lets pay our pilots $30 an hour starting next week...it's worked for Skybus), and their plan was to raise the rates once they were established...they just never got that far.

If you don't like the company, don't work there, but don't try to paint their entire pilot group as bad people...that's not going to do anything for the public's view on airline pilots, and it's simply unprofessional to do to a fellow pilot.
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I won't address my feelings on Colgan in detail but I think if you take a look at Horizon's pay scale and contract on the Q-400 compared to yours and you think that it won't come up in their next round of contract negotiations then you are crazy.

Flying a bus for $30.00 an hour hurts everyone because if you think that when pilots from United, SWA, Delta, NWA, CAL, insert favorite airline here, go to the negotiating table the management negotiating team is going to ask why they should get double what the Skybus pilots are making to fly the same airplane. We should all be in this together to help pull this profession out of the gutter.

Flying a 50 or 76 at a market rate is certainly not the same as flying an airplane for half of what everyone else is. Each to their own but I have a feeling that these Skybus guys will have a very difficult time finding jobs at other carriers. If you think any of the above points are incorrect then you haven't been around this industry long enough.
 
KennyFlys said:
Matt, I'm happy to see you come clean on this issue. :D

Auburn or HCS or whatever... man, that was way off base. Those pilots went to work for an airline whom they saw as having great potential. And, had it not been for a sudden increase in fuel taking out their cash resources, I think it would have gone far. But, there are costs in any new start-up and this one was no different.

Look at how many years Amazon operated at a loss before going into the black? Were those employees scum as well because it cut into other "legitimate" online retailers or big box book stores?

I'm looking for the right gig with a flight school to work for. I'd rather be with a small outfit doing it right with healthy management and excellent potential than work for a large school that simply has the volume but no quality. I'm sure many of those pilots felt the same way and saw an opportunity.

It was tried once, it will be tried again. In fact, I wonder how many naysayers are now biting their tongue from statements made when Jet Blue first took off?
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Or the airline could have said, what is the average rate for pilots flying an A-320? Let's pay our pilots this wage and charge $12 for our tickets instead of $10. Instead these pilots worked for next to nothing and the management had little labor cost to figure into their "business model". This hurt the entire industry.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Or the airline could have said, what is the average rate for pilots flying an A-320? Let's pay our pilots this wage and charge $12 for our tickets instead of $10. Instead these pilots worked for next to nothing and the management had little labor cost to figure into their "business model". This hurt the entire industry.
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I think you might want to dig into the upper management history of a few US majors. Those being Delta, United, Continental, Northwest and US Air. Name one that hasn't been in bankruptcy at least once. There isn't one. The existing Delta pilots took a cut they didn't have to because management ran the companies into the ground without adapting to the changing market place. ONLY the upper management is winning at this game.

I don't know what you fly now or where you're headed but there's no place where you can get a job well into six-figures these days. The few remaining will soon be gone through attrition. Your blame on the pilots is wrongly placed.

By the way, what you describe would be illegal if the airlines did it with fares. It's called price fixing.
 
KennyFlys said:
Matt, I'm happy to see you come clean on this issue. :D
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I know you're kidding here, Kenny, but I was only half joking. I know at least those two other airlines are getting the short end of the stick thanks to CJC. If the union ends up putting up fences that allow the PCL pilots to bid the Q, I won't hold anything against them...it is their company's money that bought the planes, though I do think if the pilots wanted an east coast base in a turbo-prop, maying getting hired by Pinnacle wasn't the best choice in the first place...but that's nether here nor there. If the PCL pilots win the Q, good for them, and I'll be happy to meet them on the line some day.

As far as X-Jet goes...well...that's the price of doing business. Sure we're stealing their routes that they've been flying for year, but it's not the pilots that are stealing them...we didn't just say "Oooo, EWR to PWM looks like fun, COA, give us that route!" The Q can do it just as fast but a lot cheaper. If someone else can come along and do it cheaper than us, then they should get the routes instead of us, even though that would probably spell the end for CJC.

AuburnCFI -

I know people say that, because I work for CJC I'm hurting other pilots and the industry. I was hired before there was talk of a PCL merger. I was hired when the Q was still a wet dream for Colgan management. I was hired expecting to fly the 1900 until I was a captain. I was hired when our paychecks came from Manassas, VA. Now I'm on my second base, which is about to close, the 1900 is going to be gone before I get to upgrade, and my checks come from Memphis, TN. Dems da breaks. I'm not going to quit my job, and go fly for PCL or X-Jet or Comair or ASA because they pay more and they aren't stealing routes. I could quit and go to Horizon on the Q, but I like the schedules that Colgan has, and I love the East coast. So here I stay. And if my $26 an hour in a 74 seat twin turbo-prop somehow hurts the Horizon pilots, I do apologize, but I'd be really surprised if Horizon cares what Colgan does.

Horizon pays more, but their mins are a lot higher. Here at CJC, they get what they pay for in terms of new hires...it's not that they're bad, just inexperienced...and that's the joy of the free market. Now if we were bought by Horizon next week and management went to the Horizon pilots and said, "we're going to cut your pay now to $26 because the east coast pilots get that," then I might consider taking my career elsewhere. I absolutely won't cross the line or allow myself to be a whipsaw, but as it is, Colgan is going to have as much effect on Horizon as Skybus did on any of the majors - we're different companies in different markets, serving different airlines. This constant blaming of one pilot group for the downfall of another is a cheap cop out and a great way to avoid saying that the management of the fallen company sucked.

And if, by some shot in the dark, Colgan or Skybus are hurting the industry, your beef is with the management not the pilots. Like Ken pointed out, new companies happen. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but they're almost always going to be somehow different from what everyone else has been doing. Sure that's gonna **** some people, but that doesn't make them evil, just new and different. Again, Ken said it best, the era of the grand airlines with grand pay scales are gone. Bottom line, it's a business, and we're all just here hoping to make a dollar more than we did yesterday...and if we get to fly while doing it, bonus. You're welcome to stick with Comair, Eagle, ASA, TSA, NW, US Air, American...the non-industry killing airlines...but I hope you enjoy your furlough. I'll be over here at the great and evil Colgan with my 350 fellow pilots of the dark side enjoying the view from 16,000 feet and my grossly deflated paycheck.

Flame away.
 
Fuel prices aren't going down anytime soon. I doubt this will be the last news story we read about an airline going under.
 
KennyFlys said:
I think you might want to dig into the upper management history of a few US majors. Those being Delta, United, Continental, Northwest and US Air. Name one that hasn't been in bankruptcy at least once. There isn't one. The existing Delta pilots took a cut they didn't have to because management ran the companies into the ground without adapting to the changing market place. ONLY the upper management is winning at this game.

I don't know what you fly now or where you're headed but there's no place where you can get a job well into six-figures these days. The few remaining will soon be gone through attrition. Your blame on the pilots is wrongly placed.

By the way, what you describe would be illegal if the airlines did it with fares. It's called price fixing.
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You think price fixing is when Airline X decides that their product costs $x.xx and decides to charge at least that to break even and possibly charge $0.01 more to make a profit without collaboration with competitors? Here is a review of price fixing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

As far as six figure jobs go, DAL, NWA, FDX, UAL, CAL, all reach into six figures. DAL could have you in six figures by the third year or soon depending upon which aircraft you fly. Take a look at airlinepilotcentral.com and have a look at the pay scales. They certainly aren't where they were before 9/11 but the legacy pilots (including FL, B6, and SW) aren't being paid $65.00 an hour to fly as CA on the A-319 either. LABOR SHOULD BE A FIXED COST, adjust fares accordingly.
 
Teller1900 said:
I know you're kidding here, Kenny, but I was only half joking. I know at least those two other airlines are getting the short end of the stick thanks to CJC. If the union ends up putting up fences that allow the PCL pilots to bid the Q, I won't hold anything against them...it is their company's money that bought the planes, though I do think if the pilots wanted an east coast base in a turbo-prop, maying getting hired by Pinnacle wasn't the best choice in the first place...but that's nether here nor there. If the PCL pilots win the Q, good for them, and I'll be happy to meet them on the line some day.

As far as X-Jet goes...well...that's the price of doing business. Sure we're stealing their routes that they've been flying for year, but it's not the pilots that are stealing them...we didn't just say "Oooo, EWR to PWM looks like fun, COA, give us that route!" The Q can do it just as fast but a lot cheaper. If someone else can come along and do it cheaper than us, then they should get the routes instead of us, even though that would probably spell the end for CJC.

AuburnCFI -

I know people say that, because I work for CJC I'm hurting other pilots and the industry. I was hired before there was talk of a PCL merger. I was hired when the Q was still a wet dream for Colgan management. I was hired expecting to fly the 1900 until I was a captain. I was hired when our paychecks came from Manassas, VA. Now I'm on my second base, which is about to close, the 1900 is going to be gone before I get to upgrade, and my checks come from Memphis, TN. Dems da breaks. I'm not going to quit my job, and go fly for PCL or X-Jet or Comair or ASA because they pay more and they aren't stealing routes. I could quit and go to Horizon on the Q, but I like the schedules that Colgan has, and I love the East coast. So here I stay. And if my $26 an hour in a 74 seat twin turbo-prop somehow hurts the Horizon pilots, I do apologize, but I'd be really surprised if Horizon cares what Colgan does.

Horizon pays more, but their mins are a lot higher. Here at CJC, they get what they pay for in terms of new hires...it's not that they're bad, just inexperienced...and that's the joy of the free market. Now if we were bought by Horizon next week and management went to the Horizon pilots and said, "we're going to cut your pay now to $26 because the east coast pilots get that," then I might consider taking my career elsewhere. I absolutely won't cross the line or allow myself to be a whipsaw, but as it is, Colgan is going to have as much effect on Horizon as Skybus did on any of the majors - we're different companies in different markets, serving different airlines. This constant blaming of one pilot group for the downfall of another is a cheap cop out and a great way to avoid saying that the management of the fallen company sucked.

And if, by some shot in the dark, Colgan or Skybus are hurting the industry, your beef is with the management not the pilots. Like Ken pointed out, new companies happen. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but they're almost always going to be somehow different from what everyone else has been doing. Sure that's gonna **** some people, but that doesn't make them evil, just new and different. Again, Ken said it best, the era of the grand airlines with grand pay scales are gone. Bottom line, it's a business, and we're all just here hoping to make a dollar more than we did yesterday...and if we get to fly while doing it, bonus. You're welcome to stick with Comair, Eagle, ASA, TSA, NW, US Air, American...the non-industry killing airlines...but I hope you enjoy your furlough. I'll be over here at the great and evil Colgan with my 350 fellow pilots of the dark side enjoying the view from 16,000 feet and my grossly deflated paycheck.

Flame away.
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Typical response. Enjoy my furlough while you drive the industry downward just to enjoy your Q. If you don't see the irony in what you just posted then I guess you just won't ever get it. Do you think that Horizon requires more experience because they have to or want to? If Colgan paid more and had any semblance of work rules do you think they could recruit these more experienced pilots? Chicken and the egg, which came first?

This is really the typical response I get on this particular board, it seems that the love for flying, which I certainly understand, clouds peoples mind that it is a career (airline flying) we use to pay our mortgages, put our kids through college, and try to enjoy an afternoon every now and then in a real airplane. I will enjoy my furlough, thanks, and while you pass your fellow pilot in Home Depot who has just lost his job enjoy that warm fuzzy that you contributed by allowing his management to shift jobs to cheaper outsourcing because YOU really are the most important person in the world and others should just understand that is business and not personal. I would love to see you give that opinion to a guy that actually sacrificed to make this career bearable for the rest of us. I feel like I just wasted a lot of time because you won't ever understand. Your argument about PCL pilots should have gone somewhere else if they wanted to fly props out east doesn't hold water either. They want to opportunity to progress their careers since their management has been telling them for years that they cannot afford a new contract yet they go out and buy a non-union carrier and buy them airplanes, violating PCL scope, just so that they can take advantage of cheap labor flying larger airplanes.

Colgan Q-400: 35% - more revenue for management.
15% - less pay for the pilots.

**My opinion does not necessarily reflect those of XJT or ALPA in any form. They are my own.**

Sorry this bounces around, it is personal.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Take a look at airlinepilotcentral.com and have a look at the pay scales. They certainly aren't where they were before 9/11 but the legacy pilots (including FL, B6, and SW) aren't being paid $65.00 an hour to fly as CA on the A-319 either. LABOR SHOULD BE A FIXED COST, adjust fares accordingly.
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Just out of curiosity I looked at airlinepilotcentral.com and I found something interesting. Here is the first year hourly pay for the "Legacy" airlines, that is, if they were hiring.

American $35
Continental $31
Delta $50
Northwest $30
United $32
USAirways $25

I realize that the pay goes up fairly quickly at some places after the first year, but I don't see how you can be complaining about pilots making $30/hr at Skybus.

I think that everyone needs to decide for themselves what pay they are willing to accept for what job. Everyone's situation and priorities are different. I won't tell someone they are scum for taking a job for X-amount just because I wouldn't.
 
Everskyward said:
Just out of curiosity I looked at airlinepilotcentral.com and I found something interesting. Here is the first year hourly pay for the "Legacy" airlines, that is, if they were hiring.

American $35
Continental $31
Delta $50
Northwest $30
United $32
USAirways $25

I realize that the pay goes up fairly quickly at some places after the first year, but I don't see how you can be complaining about pilots making $30/hr at Skybus.

I think that everyone needs to decide for themselves what pay they are willing to accept for what job. Everyone's situation and priorities are different. I won't tell someone they are scum for taking a job for X-amount just because I wouldn't.
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Take a look at second year pay at all of those carriers. Also look at pay scale for CA's. Not even comparable to the airline formerly known as Skybus.
 
One guy wants to get paid more, another is willing to get paid less; I'm not sure which one thinks he's the "most important person in the world." I sympathize with the bitterness. In the movies, architects are always millionaires, so way aren't I?
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Take a look at second year pay at all of those carriers. Also look at pay scale for CA's. Not even comparable to the airline formerly known as Skybus.
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I'm sure it was a lot easier to get on with Skybus than it is at any of the Legacy carriers too, and it would be a chance to get some heavier aircraft time. Like I said, people have their own reasons whether you like it or not.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
LABOR SHOULD BE A FIXED COST, adjust fares accordingly.
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2 points:

1) Labor is never a truly fixed cost - unless you have featherbedding and folks sitting wround sipping coffee. It varies (for the airlines) based on the number of planes and flights that operate. Less flights, less passengers, less staff.

2) Fare adjustment is problematic as the airline business has become a commodity. The majority of passengers choose based on fares. There is little product differentiation - meaning that there is no gain or penalty for choosing a different carrier. Airlines have tried - hard - through FF programs, non-refundable tickets, round trip purchase requirements, etc. to force people to commit to a particular carrier, change penalties.... yet as long as there is competition that offers lower fares (or in the case of one airline, offers OW tickets at 1/2 the price of RT). The airlines, in general, treat passengers as chattel - and think that more and more fees and penalties are the way to go. Competition is on market share as opposed to service. As long as all this persists, it will be very difficult to raise base fares. The ONLY place where the airlines have pricing power is fortress hubs (e.g. DL at CVG).... and even then, folks will drive to LEX, SDF, CMH, or DAY where it's in their economic best interest (FWIW, there are some companies in Cincinnati that will split the cost savings of LEX/SDF/CHM/DAY with any employee that's willing to drive and take flights out of the alternate).

This is also why you see fees and fuel surcharges as opposed to fare increases. Nickle-and-diming passengers. Why? Because of the fare sensitivity and the demands of most corporations for their travelers to take the lowest available fare regardless of airline (exceptions are made in some cases, but on a route like NYC-LAX or NYC-WAS there is really no exception). Base fares are ranked in the GDS/reservations systems, surcharges are not). Airlines are forced to lower their costs by other businesses that are lowering their costs. Pay and staff cuts are not uncommon for labor in other companies where there is cost pressure.... and many of those have cut "bone".

So, while I'm sympathetic to your issue, I don't think we've seen the end. At least you're in a role that can't be outsourced to Mexico, China, or India where the payscales are a LOT lower. And frankly, I don't blame Matt for doing what he needed to do (nor do I blame the Skybus pilots). There's more to life than just pay.

Now before you or anyone else takes a shot at me, you should know that I've worked in both upper corporate management (non-airline, but a "perishable inventory" service industry that's similar) as well as entrepreneurual ventures (translation: little or no pay during the startup periods). I sure wish someone offered me guaranteed high pay with little risk (my labor cost right now is truly variable: no clients or no deals = no pay, at all). Again, it's my choice. Matt's made Matt's choice, and you've made yours.
 
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JohnR said:
One guy wants to get paid more, another is willing to get paid less; I'm not sure which one thinks he's the "most important person in the world." I sympathize with the bitterness. In the movies, architects are always millionaires, so way aren't I?
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Pretty funny. I am married to an architect and I have been wondering the same thing... A very noble profession nonetheless.
 
wsuffa said:
Matt's made Matt's choice, and you've made yours.
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Good analysis, but Matt's choice and the choice of his colleagues is having a direct influence on my life. My choice has not affected them at all. Raising the bar never hurt anyone, lowering it on the other hand... Well, you get the point.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Good analysis, but Matt's choice and the choice of his colleagues is having a direct influence on my life.
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Welcome to life. I'll bet your employer would pay peanuts without regard to Matt's choice. If they could get away with it, that is.

Your problem is not Matt & his colleagues - your problem is that there is an oversupply of eager pilots. Economists would call it supply/demand pricing. And a market that doesn't value the skills of a pilot any more than it values a bus driver - because the revenue side is severely limited by other factors.

My choice has not affected them at all. Raising the bar never hurt anyone, lowering it on the other hand... Well, you get the point.
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Well, it has. It affects his ability to move up (because if you chose to leave for a different profession, that would open another slot that he or his colleagues could take).

I don't think you'll be able to raise the bar as long as airline seats are a commodity... and as long as there are so many pilots that are willing to step up. Be glad that there's a stiff(er) barrier to entry in the type-ratings that are required.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Good analysis, but Matt's choice and the choice of his colleagues is having a direct influence on my life. My choice has not affected them at all. Raising the bar never hurt anyone, lowering it on the other hand... Well, you get the point.
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How? How have I hurt you? Give me some empirical evidence about how my job or my company has hurt you personally. If we've stolen routes from you, sorry, but that's business (and isn't that just a little selfish of you to think that makes us evil?) All you've given me so far is ALPA's dogmatic marching slogan of "If you're not with us, you're agin' us." I fly for a small airline, so I'm hurting everyone else. I don't know who you fly for, but I have yet to see any evidence that my 1900 is hurting anyone but the birds, or my company's Qs are doing anything but the same. Sure other airlines are losing routes to us, but we've lost routes to other airlines, and I'm sure we will again. Sure we don't get paid much, but what I sacrifice in my pay I get back in QOL (I'm home every night, I have a nice car, and I can support my fiance and her retarded cat). We're not lowering the bar, we just work for a smaller airline with shallower pockets. Sure, we could demand higher pay (I voted for ALPA last year, too) but we're going to be demanding it right into the unemployment line.

Is it selfish to say I have a good QOL so I'm going to stay? Sure, a little. But you keep saying that's a bad thing. Well if I'm not a little selfish, who's going to look out for my career? If you can prove to me that I've hurt your job, and you can protect my seniority, I'll come work for your airline tomorrow. But the long and the short of it is, I got the job here sooner than I would have elsewhere. I will upgrade sooner here than I would elsewhere. I go to work, do my job, and get my paycheck. How have I affected anyone but myself? It's always about "doing the best for the industry and other pilots" as long as you're not the one giving up your job. And what's best for the industry? We could all quit Colgan, go back to the bottom at another airline, X-Jet gets their routes back that we stole from them, PCL gets the Qs, and then some other airline comes along as says "hey, lets fly turbo-props because they're cheaper to operate and can get into airports that RJs can't." And it all begins again. That's how business works.

The union view of, "if you're not working with us at our approved and sponsored airlines then you're scum," worked great back when the unions had power and the airlines had endless amounts of money. But that's no more. Airlines don't have endless money streams, especially not small regionals. They're businesses now, and that's it. The bigger ones pay more, but they also have more overhead. The smaller ones have less overhead, but less revenue, so they pay less. That's how it works now. We can demand that they do more for us, but they won't be around much longer if we do. Colgan has been around for 30 years paying what they do...obviously it's worked for them. They're not a perfect company, by any means, but they know how to plane the business game.

I can appreciate that the Pinnacle pilots want to fly the Q. We're all one company now, but it was their company that fronted the money for the planes...I have no problem with their pilots getting to fly them. I do, however, have a problem with this constant personification of Colgan pilots as the evil schmucks who stole the Q out from under PCL. CJC negotiated the contracts for the Q long before PCL came along, they just didn't have the money for them. PCL offered to front the money, in exchange for a buyout. The pilots had nothing to do with, and the planes were bought for the CJC side of the house, as the new CRJ-900s were bought for the PCL side of the house. If we cross sides, good for the PCL pilots, welcome to our side of the house. If we don't cross, that's just another example of how union protection doesn't do anything if the company doesn't want it to. If all us Colganites quit because PCL management doesn't open the fences, then both companies are screwed and we're all out of a job. That'll sure show them.

Wow, how far have we strayed from the OP!?
 
Auburn_CFI said:
You think price fixing is when Airline X decides that their product costs $x.xx and decides to charge at least that to break even and possibly charge $0.01 more to make a profit without collaboration with competitors? Here is a review of price fixing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

As far as six figure jobs go, DAL, NWA, FDX, UAL, CAL, all reach into six figures. DAL could have you in six figures by the third year or soon depending upon which aircraft you fly. Take a look at airlinepilotcentral.com and have a look at the pay scales. They certainly aren't where they were before 9/11 but the legacy pilots (including FL, B6, and SW) aren't being paid $65.00 an hour to fly as CA on the A-319 either. LABOR SHOULD BE A FIXED COST, adjust fares accordingly.
Click to expand...
Let's see if I have this right. You want all pilots to refuse to work for less than a minimum wage. You throw $30 per hour out there. Any pilot who works for less is scum. But, regardless you want all airline pilots to do this. That is indeed the equivalent of price fixing, just applied to wages rather than the price of a product. Or, is it? Aren't pilot services something provided to the airlines?

The "six-figure jobs" I was referring to were the days of an international pilot making $250k+ flying a 74, 77 or otherwise around the globe. Those days are gone. But, maybe they could come back if airlines chose to price fix the fares way up there. But wait again, there used to be price fixing! It was called regulation.

Want labor fixed? Join a union and cry to the Democrats in office. They are big on unions and really big on sticking it to big business.

I've gathered you're a young guy still relatively new in the industry. Yet, you already seem fed up and discouraged not to mention ticked off at the airlines and their pilots who "give in." If you're that unhappy then perhaps this isn't for you. This isn't a job you do for the money. I don't have a problem with "greed" and wanting more money for what you do. But, I fear it's going to rule your life and in the end make you an unsafe pilot on that flight deck.

You're in the airlines and you have that start. You can take it a long way if you so choose. I don't have that option and never will. That's ok. I earned my CFI ticket so I'll be content with teaching. Further more, I'm dang glad to be there and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. I have to wonder if you ever experienced that. Or, were you one of those college instructors Tristan was telling me about?

I'm done with this. I won't apply the word to you I'm thinking here as it would get me a message from the MC. But, you can pick one and apply it to yourself. Either way, it's probably correct in your own mind and/or in reality. Appreciate what you have then look at what else you might earn. But, do it while enjoying being there and providing a safe, quality service to your passengers.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, the principles of Capitalism were still intact. I find your view of someone who works an honest job for a living as scum....frankly....disgusting.

Greg
 
KennyFlys said:
Let's see if I have this right. You want all pilots to refuse to work for less than a minimum wage. You throw $30 per hour out there. Any pilot who works for less is scum. But, regardless you want all airline pilots to do this. That is indeed the equivalent of price fixing, just applied to wages rather than the price of a product. Or, is it? Aren't pilot services something provided to the airlines?

The "six-figure jobs" I was referring to were the days of an international pilot making $250k+ flying a 74, 77 or otherwise around the globe. Those days are gone. But, maybe they could come back if airlines chose to price fix the fares way up there. But wait again, there used to be price fixing! It was called regulation.

Want labor fixed? Join a union and cry to the Democrats in office. They are big on unions and really big on sticking it to big business.

I've gathered you're a young guy still relatively new in the industry. Yet, you already seem fed up and discouraged not to mention ticked off at the airlines and their pilots who "give in." If you're that unhappy then perhaps this isn't for you. This isn't a job you do for the money. I don't have a problem with "greed" and wanting more money for what you do. But, I fear it's going to rule your life and in the end make you an unsafe pilot on that flight deck.

You're in the airlines and you have that start. You can take it a long way if you so choose. I don't have that option and never will. That's ok. I earned my CFI ticket so I'll be content with teaching. Further more, I'm dang glad to be there and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. I have to wonder if you ever experienced that. Or, were you one of those college instructors Tristan was telling me about?

I'm done with this. I won't apply the word to you I'm thinking here as it would get me a message from the MC. But, you can pick one and apply it to yourself. Either way, it's probably correct in your own mind and/or in reality. Appreciate what you have then look at what else you might earn. But, do it while enjoying being there and providing a safe, quality service to your passengers.
Click to expand...

I want all pilots to work for at least industry average on the type of aircraft that they are flying. The reason for this has been explained, it has a profound effect on others flying that same aircraft type when their own contracts are negotiated. Like I said, if you think that Skybus pay rates would have been ignored by other airlines when pay rates were discussed then you really don't know much about contract renegotiations or section 6 negotiations as they are called. We want the bar to be raised, not lowered.

Six figures means $100,000 last time I checked. I am relatively young and grew up the son of an airline pilot that worked hard for his family and for the future of the industry and walked the walk when need be. So my career may be relatively new but certainly not my experience or my source of inspiration.

I was an instructor for just over two years and flew charter for a year before entering the airline industry just over two years ago. I didn't strive to be a career instructor but I was dedicated to my students when I was instructing and I am sure they would tell you that they felt as though I gave them 100% and learned more than they did during that part of my aviation career. I am not sure what your point was there with the college instructor remark.

I am a member of a pilot Union and I do involve the elected officials who represent me when I feel it will help. We are trying to raise the bar and return this profession to some semblance of what it used to be. It is very difficult when there is always someone there wanting to do the job for less money allowing their management to get rich and the rest of us poor slugs to suffer or as Matt said, to wait for and to enjoy our furlough.

I am sorry you want to call me a name so bad that you can't even say it. I really don't know where your motivation is since you have decided not to join the airlines and have no dog in the proverbial fight.
 
ggroves said:
Last time I checked, the principles of Capitalism were still intact. I find your view of someone who works an honest job for a living as scum....frankly....disgusting.

Greg
Click to expand...


You have clearly never been involved in organized labor.
 
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