Skybus is dead tonight

Auburn_CFI said:
You have clearly never been involved in organized labor.
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I don't think I could stomach the overwhelming sense of entitlement that goes along with it.

Greg
 
ggroves said:
I don't think I could stomach the overwhelming sense of entitlement that goes along with it.

Greg
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You mean entitlement to things like decent wages, affordable health care, job protection, or retirement. I understand. Not to mention the things that the flying public forgets about like SAFETY. ALPA has done more for safety than any other group in the history of the airline industry.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
I want all pilots to work for at least industry average on the type of aircraft that they are flying. The reason for this has been explained, it has a profound effect on others flying that same aircraft type when their own contracts are negotiated. Like I said, if you think that Skybus pay rates would have been ignored by other airlines when pay rates were discussed then you really don't know much about contract renegotiations or section 6 negotiations as they are called. We want the bar to be raised, not lowered.
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Then, use the union. But, stop belittling other pilots for the choices they make which work for them. You did exactly that to Matt.

Six figures means $100,000 last time I checked. I am relatively young and grew up the son of an airline pilot that worked hard for his family and for the future of the industry and walked the walk when need be. So my career may be relatively new but certainly not my experience or my source of inspiration.
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You gave the impression that was not enough. You wanted much more. Not that there is anything wrong with wanting more but you seem to want to twist the arm of your employer and potential future employers rather than prove yourself worthy of earning more.

I was an instructor for just over two years and flew charter for a year before entering the airline industry just over two years ago. I didn't strive to be a career instructor but I was dedicated to my students when I was instructing and I am sure they would tell you that they felt as though I gave them 100% and learned more than they did during that part of my aviation career. I am not sure what your point was there with the college instructor remark.
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Because you give the impression you don't want to work for what you get. All I could picture was you instructed only because you had to do it to build time. Based on these posts, I can't imagine you having wanted to be there for the benefit of your students. Quite honestly, had I read these posts from you and then had you come to me for an instructing position, I'd be hard pressed to take you on.

I am a member of a pilot Union and I do involve the elected officials who represent me when I feel it will help. We are trying to raise the bar and return this profession to some semblance of what it used to be. It is very difficult when there is always someone there wanting to do the job for less money allowing their management to get rich and the rest of us poor slugs to suffer or as Matt said, to wait for and to enjoy our furlough.
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It will never go back to what it once was. As I said, regulation is gone. The economy is different and the industry is different. Competition is more fierce and passengers demand more for their money. The industry is what it is. As a whole, it's not going to change.

Now, there may be some individual airlines that do make changes and have adapted to current needs. Jet Blue and Southwest are good examples. Skybus tried but ran out of money before they could better establish themselves. I think Jet Blue would be in the same boat had fuel prices taken such an upturn during their first year.

Use your union. Attempt any changes you so desire. But, I'm not for arm twisting tactics used by unions. It's one thing to negotiate a better income. But, if you're not capable of negotiating a better rate based on your own skills and personal accomplishments, what value are you to your employer? ADM isn't limited to the cockpit.

I am sorry you want to call me a name so bad that you can't even say it. I really don't know where your motivation is since you have decided not to join the airlines and have no dog in the proverbial fight.
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Well, I suppose I can't get much worse than use of the word "scum." The word I did use in the past which got me banned for a couple weeks wasn't that bad. But, you did use it with Matt. I think an apology is owed.

My not joining the airlines is irrelevant. But, I'll be teaching many who plan to head that way. By your logic, I should also be teaching them to demand more pay or consider themselves scum for accepting less than what you deem reasonable.

My dog in this fight is your attitude. It scares me you have greater concerns over pay than you do safety and your job as a pilot. Is that truly the case? That's sure as hell how you come across.

As said before, I have no problem with wanting more. But, try making that case for yourself with your own employer. Stop dragging down everyone else who doesn't meet your expectations because you think it hurts your goal for getting more. After that, consider how far you're willing to go before you price yourself out of a job. Think about Eastern Airlines.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
I want all pilots to work for at least industry average on the type of aircraft that they are flying.
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So, if everyone works for at least industry average, then industry average gets raised. Rinse, lather, repeat. If everyone must be at industry average or above, then the only final solution is that everyone gets paid the same.

In effect, you're taking the free market out of it.

The reason for this has been explained, it has a profound effect on others flying that same aircraft type when their own contracts are negotiated. Like I said, if you think that Skybus pay rates would have been ignored by other airlines when pay rates were discussed then you really don't know much about contract renegotiations or section 6 negotiations as they are called. We want the bar to be raised, not lowered.
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Great. And you're free to try and negotiate the value of your services upward.

Management is looking at one factor: price. Less pilots would drive prices higher. Negotiation covers a lot of factors - as Matt noted, he's willing to give something for quality of life. I know a number of folks that could get private sector jobs that have chosen government work - because it carries a different amount of job security and there's the trade between price and security. Likewise, there are many folks in the military that could earn a LOT more working for firms like Blackwater..... but....

Last time I checked, the unions represented everyone at a carrier, giving you immense negotiating power. The selling point to having folks belong to a union is that power (and all it's trappings, including compensation). But folks who don't join give up the ability to work for a large carrier, but they gain a certain amount of personal freedom. I personally think it's up to them to make that choice for themselves, though I understand and sympathize with your position.

We are trying to raise the bar and return this profession to some semblance of what it used to be. It is very difficult when there is always someone there wanting to do the job for less money allowing their management to get rich and the rest of us poor slugs to suffer or as Matt said, to wait for and to enjoy our furlough.
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Two points:
1) The airline industry is never going to be what it was before deregulation. Not going to happen. More change is coming with Open Skies. That affects employees, passengers, and management alike.

2) You're always - in every industry - going to have folks that are willing to do the same job for less money. In this industry in particular, you've got furloughed pilots, you've got a bunch of folks still wanting to come into the industry, and you've got (or will have) ex-military folks that still want to fly. I don't think you can ever make everyone refuse to work unless they get a certain level of pay - personal circumstances are different: if the only job offered pays less and you've got mouths to feed and no other prospects, you'll take the lower paying job. At least most folks will.

BTW, Point #2 is why I personally think a pro pilot ought to have a college degree in some other area that they can fall back on. It gives them an additional negotiating point if the airlines say FU.

I am sorry you want to call me a name so bad that you can't even say it. I really don't know where your motivation is since you have decided not to join the airlines and have no dog in the proverbial fight.
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I think name-calling is inappropriate. I see your point, and I respect you for standing up for something you believe in. For me, I do have a dog in the fight because I fly commercially (a lot) for business and I want the air carriers to be both healthy and reasonably priced.

Let me ask you a question:

You understand the commodity pricing issue and the fact that airlines are raising all kinds of other fees on the passengers - yet they're not being exactly profitable. Even if you eliminated all management compensation, there's not much to spread around on a per-employee basis. Services are being eliminated and non-flight personnel are being fired.

Question: given all that, and especially the pricing pressure, how would YOU propose that management deal with the need to be profitable yet meet your desire to be paid more (and have more bennies)? Remember that at some point passengers will choose an alternate means of transportation if prices go too high.
 
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KennyFlys said:
Then, use the union. But, stop belittling other pilots for the choices they make which work for them. You did exactly that to Matt.


You gave the impression that was not enough. You wanted much more. Not that there is anything wrong with wanting more but you seem to want to twist the arm of your employer and potential future employers rather than prove yourself worthy of earning more.


Because you give the impression you don't want to work for what you get. All I could picture was you instructed only because you had to do it to build time. Based on these posts, I can't imagine you having wanted to be there for the benefit of your students. Quite honestly, had I read these posts from you and then had you come to me for an instructing position, I'd be hard pressed to take you on.


It will never go back to what it once was. As I said, regulation is gone. The economy is different and the industry is different. Competition is more fierce and passengers demand more for their money. The industry is what it is. As a whole, it's not going to change.

Now, there may be some individual airlines that do make changes and have adapted to current needs. Jet Blue and Southwest are good examples. Skybus tried but ran out of money before they could better establish themselves. I think Jet Blue would be in the same boat had fuel prices taken such an upturn during their first year.

Use your union. Attempt any changes you so desire. But, I'm not for arm twisting tactics used by unions. It's one thing to negotiate a better income. But, if you're not capable of negotiating a better rate based on your own skills and personal accomplishments, what value are you to your employer? ADM isn't limited to the cockpit.


Well, I suppose I can't get much worse than use of the word "scum." The word I did use in the past which got me banned for a couple weeks wasn't that bad. But, you did use it with Matt. I think an apology is owed.

My not joining the airlines is irrelevant. But, I'll be teaching many who plan to head that way. By your logic, I should also be teaching them to demand more pay or consider themselves scum for accepting less than what you deem reasonable.

My dog in this fight is your attitude. It scares me you have greater concerns over pay than you do safety and your job as a pilot. Is that truly the case? That's sure as hell how you come across.

As said before, I have no problem with wanting more. But, try making that case for yourself with your own employer. Stop dragging down everyone else who doesn't meet your expectations because you think it hurts your goal for getting more. After that, consider how far you're willing to go before you price yourself out of a job. Think about Eastern Airlines.
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How could you possibly say that I consider pay to be more important than safety? Please quote where I said that.

The rest of your post, just as the statement about safety, is completely without base and I have addressed all of your points.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
How could you possibly say that I consider pay to be more important than safety? Please quote where I said that.
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KennyFlys said:
My dog in this fight is your attitude. It scares me you have greater concerns over pay than you do safety and your job as a pilot. Is that truly the case? That's sure as hell how you come across.
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I said, that's how you come across. I don't know what is in your mind, only what you write in your posts. You are harping on money as if nothing else matters.

The rest of your post, just as the statement about safety, is completely without base and I have addressed all of your points.
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Your opinion and that's fine. But, you still owe Matt an apology as far as I'm concerned.

There's so much about this business you're ignoring. Bill addressed some of it and I addressed some.

Tell ya what though... get the regs changed so you can fly more and you'll be able to earn more. I'm sure airlines would rather employee less people to manage. That's part of the cost factor. But, with all those added hours, another issue pops up... safety. Dang, ya just can't get away from that word.
 
wsuffa said:
So, if everyone works for at least industry average, then industry average gets raised. Rinse, lather, repeat. If everyone must be at industry average or above, then the only final solution is that everyone gets paid the same.

In effect, you're taking the free market out of it.



Great. And you're free to try and negotiate the value of your services upward.

Management is looking at one factor: price. Less pilots would drive prices higher. Negotiation covers a lot of factors - as Matt noted, he's willing to give something for quality of life. I know a number of folks that could get private sector jobs that have chosen government work - because it carries a different amount of job security and there's the trade between price and security. Likewise, there are many folks in the military that could earn a LOT more working for firms like Blackwater..... but....

Last time I checked, the unions represented everyone at a carrier, giving you immense negotiating power. The selling point to having folks belong to a union is that power (and all it's trappings, including compensation). But folks who don't join give up the ability to work for a large carrier, but they gain a certain amount of personal freedom. I personally think it's up to them to make that choice for themselves, though I understand and sympathize with your position.



Two points:
1) The airline industry is never going to be what it was before deregulation. Not going to happen. More change is coming with Open Skies. That affects employees, passengers, and management alike.

2) You're always - in every industry - going to have folks that are willing to do the same job for less money. In this industry in particular, you've got furloughed pilots, you've got a bunch of folks still wanting to come into the industry, and you've got (or will have) ex-military folks that still want to fly. I don't think you can ever make everyone refuse to work unless they get a certain level of pay - personal circumstances are different: if the only job offered pays less and you've got mouths to feed and no other prospects, you'll take the lower paying job. At least most folks will.

BTW, Point #2 is why I personally think a pro pilot ought to have a college degree in some other area that they can fall back on. It gives them an additional negotiating point if the airlines say FU.



I think name-calling is inappropriate. I see your point, and I respect you for standing up for something you believe in. For me, I do have a dog in the fight because I fly commercially (a lot) for business and I want the air carriers to be both healthy and reasonably priced.

Let me ask you a question:

You understand the commodity pricing issue and the fact that airlines are raising all kinds of other fees on the passengers - yet they're not being exactly profitable. Even if you eliminated all management compensation, there's not much to spread around on a per-employee basis. Services are being eliminated and non-flight personnel are being fired.

Question: given all that, and especially the pricing pressure, how would YOU propose that management deal with the need to be profitable yet meet your desire to be paid more (and have more bennies)? Remember that at some point passengers will choose an alternate means of transportation if prices go too high.
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Excellent post and I appreciate your invitation for my input.

The industry average scenario you gave is a good starting point. In reality you always hope that when other carriers negotiate they are able to bring the average up and that it is always increasing. There is always the chance for huge economic changes such as 9/11 and that causes some recalibration. We have seen this recalibration and now the goal must be to increase pay and benefits as well as improve work rules. Every pilot group has an influence on other pilot groups and that is why this entire subject is so important.

There will always be people willing to work for less. I concede that point. It doesn't take away from the validation of my above point. The problem is that they do it looking out only for themselves and I am arguing for a better outcome for the entire profession (I don't think you can call this selfish).

Simply put, airline management hasn't realized something that those of us who participate in General Aviation already know, FLYING AIRPLANES IS EXPENSIVE. Like Greg B. alluded to several weeks ago in a post about Delta Airlines, the public is addicted to cheap tickets and the airlines know this. Basically, in recent years, as costs have risen instead of raising ticket prices airline management has depended on labor concessions to remain profitable. What they should be doing is raising prices, they would still be highly affordable to the average flyer. For example, a $10.00 increase in fares would have possibly a billion dollar influence on bottom line for most major network carriers. The management teams are so scared that their price may be the second or third on the list that they are willing to sacrifice service and happy employees to stay number on on FAVORITECHEAPTICKETWEBSITE.com.

Certainly at some point people will choose an alternate method of transportation. Airline ticket prices between many markets would still have to multiply times over in order for it to be more expensive than filling up the family SUV with gas prices over $3.00/gal. So I am an advocate of responsible management and charging a price for your product that allows you to keep the promises you made to your employees and at the same time keep your fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders.
 
KennyFlys said:
I said, that's how you come across. I don't know what is in your mind, only what you write in your posts. You are harping on money as if nothing else matters.


Your opinion and that's fine. But, you still owe Matt an apology as far as I'm concerned.

There's so much about this business you're ignoring. Bill addressed some of it and I addressed some.

Tell ya what though... get the regs changed so you can fly more and you'll be able to earn more. I'm sure airlines would rather employee less people to manage. That's part of the cost factor. But, with all those added hours, another issue pops up... safety. Dang, ya just can't get away from that word.
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You still have no way to backup your statement that I put money over safety in my list of priorities. I am harping on money because that is what this discussion is about. You are completely off base, I think you just have your feelings hurt because my opinions differ from your friends.

**I think you can do a search and see where I have been a huge advocate of checklist usage and other safety measures.
 
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Auburn_CFI said:
You still have no way to backup your statement that I put money over safety in my list of priorities. I am harping on money because that is what this discussion is about. You are completely off base, I think you just have your feelings hurt because my opinions differ from your friends.

**I think you can do a search and see where I have been a huge advocate of checklist usage and other safety measures.
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My feelings aren't hurt at all. Maybe your economics professors at Auburn are thinking they failed you and they are hurt.

But, my opinion of you hasn't changed from the point you referred to Matt and his fellow pilots as "scum."

Lastly, I said it was the impression you give. Period.
 
KennyFlys said:
My feelings aren't hurt at all. Maybe your economics professors at Auburn are thinking they failed you and they are hurt.

But, my opinion of you hasn't changed from the point you referred to Matt and his fellow pilots as "scum."

Lastly, I said it was the impression you give. Period.
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Just to be certain I just read the entire thread again. In my original response to Matt I tried to keep the conversation on the point of Skybus and said I would not spent much time addressing the Colgan issue. In a response he gave a detailed defense to which I responded. At no point did I call Matt scum, if I did you need to quote it and then I will offer a response to your demand for an apology.

Economics is black and white, you clearly don't understand this issue is not black and white at all.

I encourage you to re-read the entire thread.
 
KennyFlys said:
but you seem to want to twist the arm of your employer and potential future employers rather than prove yourself worthy of earning more.
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For what it is worth, most airline employers need their arms twisted or nothing ever gets done.

Competition is more fierce and passengers demand more for their money. The industry is what it is. As a whole, it's not going to change.
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From what I can tell, the passengers could care less as long as they get a cheap fare. But you are right. The way things are now, not much is going to change until the passengers are willing to pony up some money to pay for the change.

Jet Blue and Southwest are good examples.
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Yeah, but things aren't all rosy in their worlds either. Especially JB.

But, I'm not for arm twisting tactics used by unions.
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Tit for tat. Management does their share of arm twisting.

But, if you're not capable of negotiating a better rate based on your own skills and personal accomplishments, what value are you to your employer?
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That does not work in a seniority based system. And anything other than a seniority based system, in this industry, would result in labor chaos.

After that, consider how far you're willing to go before you price yourself out of a job. Think about Eastern Airlines.
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I think you better research that one a little more. IIRC, there were a whole lot more issues than pay that lead to the demise of Eastern.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
For what it is worth, most airline employers need their arms twisted or nothing ever gets done.



From what I can tell, the passengers could care less as long as they get a cheap fare. But you are right. The way things are now, not much is going to change until the passengers are willing to pony up some money to pay for the change.



Yeah, but things aren't all rosy in their worlds either. Especially JB.



Tit for tat. Management does their share of arm twisting.



That does not work in a seniority based system. And anything other than a seniority based system, in this industry, would result in labor chaos.



I think you better research that one a little more. IIRC, there were a whole lot more issues than pay that lead to the demise of Eastern.
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I encourage anyone to read the book Grounded if they want an unbiased look at what happened to Eastern. You may not always agree with what I say but I certainly agree with all of your points.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
Just to be certain I just read the entire thread again. In my original response to Matt I tried to keep the conversation on the point of Skybus and said I would not spent much time addressing the Colgan issue. In a response he gave a detailed defense to which I responded. At no point did I call Matt scum, if I did you need to quote it and then I will offer a response to your demand for an apology.

Economics is black and white, you clearly don't understand this issue is not black and white at all.

I encourage you to re-read the entire thread.
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Auburn_CFI said:
And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
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Teller1900 said:
I guess I'm scum too, since I fly for one of the lower paying regionals who is "stealing" routes from X-Jet and airplanes from Pinnacle.

<snip>

If you don't like the company, don't work there, but don't try to paint their entire pilot group as bad people...that's not going to do anything for the public's view on airline pilots, and it's simply unprofessional to do to a fellow pilot.
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You lumped a lot of pilots in a single catagory who do not meet your expectations. Whether it was directed at a single invidual or not, I believe it to be wrong. It served no purpose.
 
KennyFlys said:
You lumped a lot of pilots in a single catagory who do not meet your expectations. Whether it was directed at a single invidual or not, I believe it to be wrong. It served no purpose.
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Still didn't show where I called Matt scum. You are reaching pretty far here Ken. You have yet to have any factual based evidence to back up your obviously emotionally fueled claims.
 
HCS, why did you decide to become a professional pilot. You seem to be pretty distraught over issues with management not manageing properly and "scum" pilots causing you to make less.

It seems like you think you are entitled to high wages, superb working conditions, guarenteed rich retirement, etc like pilots got back in the early days of airlines.

It seems to be you should have picked a different career if you wanted all those things. The airline industry has had problems long before you entered the workforce... hence the reason I'm curious why you chose it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
For what it is worth, most airline employers need their arms twisted or nothing ever gets done.

<snip>
Tit for tat. Management does their share of arm twisting.
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I agree with accountability. It's the forgetting who is the employer and who is the employee I have to wonder about. I'm sure the shareholders are asking that question at times.

That does not work in a seniority based system. And anything other than a seniority based system, in this industry, would result in labor chaos.
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I understand. But, I think some see it as an entitlement program as opposed to working your way up.

I think you better research that one a little more. IIRC, there were a whole lot more issues than pay that lead to the demise of Eastern.
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There's plenty of blame to go around. It started with not being already geared to compete in an unregulated industry and ended with battles between Lorenzo and the unions. There was time to make changes for such competition. But, they didn't. I'll place most of the blame on Lorenzo. It was his own former people he had to compete against.
 
LeonardMack said:
HCS, why did you decide to become a professional pilot. You seem to be pretty distraught over issues with management not manageing properly and "scum" pilots causing you to make less.

It seems like you think you are entitled to high wages, superb working conditions, guarenteed rich retirement, etc like pilots got back in the early days of airlines.

It seems to be you should have picked a different career if you wanted all those things. The airline industry has had problems long before you entered the workforce... hence the reason I'm curious why you chose it.
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If you look back you will read where I wrote:

"You mean entitlement to things like decent wages, affordable health care, job protection, or retirement. I understand. Not to mention the things that the flying public forgets about like SAFETY. ALPA has done more for safety than any other group in the history of the airline industry."

Your words were high wages and guaranteed rich retirement.

I got into the industry because I think it is a great and noble profession and will always be around at least in some form. As I alluded to earlier, it is somewhat the "family business." My father was a pilot for NWA for 31 years and my mother a flight attendant for the now defunct Eastern Airlines. Sure there have always been problems but when we work together it has also provided for some great careers.
 
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Auburn_CFI said:
Still didn't show where I called Matt scum. You are reaching pretty far here Ken. You have yet to have any factual based evidence to back up your obviously emotionally fueled claims.
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:rolleyes: You don't see your own words? Add to that a reasonable interpretation of your words.

I'm not emotional on this at all. I don't give a flip. In the end, others won't care, either. I've read your posts and I've read Matt's posts on this and many other issues. I've never met either of you in person and it may never happen. But, I know which one has earned my respect.
 
KennyFlys said:
:rolleyes: You don't see your own words? Add to that a reasonable interpretation of your words.

I'm not emotional on this at all. I don't give a flip. In the end, others won't care, either. I've read your posts and I've read Matt's posts on this and many other issues. I've never met either of you in person and it may never happen. But, I know which one has earned my respect.
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I am sorry you feel this way. In the end I must stand for what I believe to be right. If that means that you do not respect me, then I really must consider that to be loss for the cause.

You also have no right to reasonable interpretation of my words, those are my words and are meant to be taken literally. This is a web forum and you cannot take the words for more than they are.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
I am sorry you feel this way. In the end I must stand for what I believe to be right. If that means that you do not respect me, then I really must consider that to be loss for the cause.

You also have no right to reasonable interpretation of my words, those are my words and are meant to be taken literally. This is a web forum and you cannot take the words for more than they are.
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:dunno: I give up! :rolleyes:
 
Auburn_CFI said:
You also have no right to reasonable interpretation of my words, those are my words and are meant to be taken literally. This is a web forum and you cannot take the words for more than they are.
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Haha, you're kidding, right?
 
Play nice, gang. We are more alike than different.

The sad reality is that pilot pay has, as a result of many dynamics over which pilots themselves have no control, become less lucrative (in the overall marketplace) than it used to be.

But, toe in reality pond here, most of the problems here derive not from some failure of pilots to assert themselves adequately, but rather, from the overall abysmal state of management at most airlines. Airlines are, by and large, run terribly. As a result, many lose money, and some fail.

So the question you have to ask yourself is this: "Is there anything that I, as a pilot, or my union, as a collective bargaining agent for me, can do to make the airlines more successful and the pilots' pay better?"

Some of the pilots who were the lowest-paid in the industry (many of whom were mocked for even accepting the jobs) are wealthy now, because they took a chance on a carrier that, while operating differently than other carriers, had a shot at greatness. Are they worthy of your disdain for having taken a chance, at a carrier which paid less and worked more?

If so, why?

If not, then how can you suggest that the pilots at any particular carrier are not entitled, also, to take that shot, in the hope and belief that they have found the next great one, or that they will be able to springboard to a much better opportunity down the line?

Is there any reason why lawyers should not be entitled to a particular minimum in pay? After all, we spend outrageous amounts of money in law school, and really work hard for the position, yet average lawyer pay is not high at all, something less than the typical 19-year-old web coder was making in 1999.

I joke, of course, but why are airline pilots inherently entitled to be protected from the vicissitudes of the marketplace?

It is problematic; the seniority system removes a substantial measure of the flexibility you might otherwise have, but there are some compelling reasons for its retention, too (principally, safety).

But let's assume there were some magical mandate that boosted the pay of all pilots at carriers which paid below some magical threshold (your "industry average"), and then their employing carrier fails; are you willing to accept them into your airline, merged into seniority and not crammed-down? This is an inevitable consequence, you know...

...just something to think about.

No easy answers, are there?
 
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Man Spike, you really are a good lawyer, you know that? :)
 
Auburn_CFI said:
I want all pilots to work for at least industry average on the type of aircraft that they are flying.
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You should move to Lake Wobegon. It's the only place where this could happen. You obviously don't understand basic economics or mathematics.
 
Bottom line for me...I'm all for unions. I voted in favor of ALPA last year when we had the big drive...I even helped out a couple days at LGA on my day off. I don't, however, think they're the all powered holy thing they used to be, nor should they be. The good days are gone, and they're gone for good. Could things be better? Absolutely! Is infighting between pilot groups going to do anything to make it better? Hell no. And I know you see it as Colgan/Skybus/etc's fault, but in the real world (that where dogmatic marching cries have no bearing in an argument) it's not.

If Horizon, or Delta, or American, or, or, or decides they want to try to lower lower pilot pay the next time contract negotiations come around (don't all employers want to be able to pay employees less, anyways?) is it because of Skybus and Colgan? Or is it because of rising fuel prices and falling ticket prices? Management might try to make the argument that they should be able to pay less because another airline pays less, but 1) that's not going to be their sole motivation for trying to lower wages, and 2) that's why you have your union...to keep them from being able to do that. Now I ask again...where's the empirical evidence that me or Colgan, or any other pilot/company has hurt you? You said that my choice to work here has had a direct effect on your job (though yours has had no effect on mine...that's not selfish at all, by the way) but you never explained how. Other than I get paid less than you. Which isn't proof at all, really.

You can hate my company all you want, lord knows I do sometimes! But please don't talk down to me or any other pilots simply because we've made different choices in our careers. It's that kind of thing that is truly going to be the downfall of the industry. Pit pilot group against pilot group and everyone will lose. Your beef is with the companies and their management, not the pilots.
 
kkoran said:
You should move to Lake Wobegon. It's the only place where this could happen. You obviously don't understand basic economics or mathematics.
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Ahh, but managers do.

"We were given our yearly evaluations and handed our objectives for the upcoming year: "Everyone must exceed the Team Average in sales dollars." My boss explained that this was not a case of exceeding a previous average; all ten of us were expected to be above whatever our current average was."

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/dnrc/html/newsletter68.html
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In reference to Teller's latest post in this thread;

my beef is with employees who don't know any better but behave as if they have the same level of experience as those who do. This permits them to chide others who do not share their optimism. I think it appropo to add the quote, "Don't **** on my shoes and then tell me it's raining.". What I mean is you hardly know the diff yet you clamor that if others be against your arguement then they must be against you (or the labor pool which represents you).

I've been an employer for most of my work history. I was also a Teamster for a number of years. I was in 2 other labor unions as well, as employee and employer. What gets me is I had taken very good care of my guys yet they also spoke as you do here. Basically I see a regurgitation of party line largely because of a lack of actual experience.

Don't be a tool.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
And their pilots were scum who worked for the lowest wages in the industry just to fly those nice new airplanes. These are the type of operations that have made being a professional pilot very difficult.
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It is precisely this vitriolic speech that further proves just how screwed up union pilot thinking can be.

Maybe they took a low wage to start at a new airline and hopefully "cash in" like those at SWA and JBLU did many years ago?

Maybe they liked the idea of the airline, the routes, and the equipment?

Such a terrible, terrible attitude.

Sigh.

-Andrew
 
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