Sky Divers in low ceiling?

J

JasonM

Pattern Altitude
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JM
Ok, so does anyone have a link to the rules with regard to sky divers jumping in low ceilings? I was out the other day and doing some pattern work and the ceiling was only 2000 AGL with light rain and it was a thick cloud base above. for my entire 2 hours practicing landings, the skydive plane is making calls of "jumpers away 14K and below". Are they allowed to do this? what if I was crossing the runway mid field and they popped out of the clouds right above me? who's fault is this? I watched them time and time again pop out from the clouds and land where they should (which I must admit is pretty dang impressive unless they have some type of GPS on them).

Also the skydive plane was not saying the airport name in his CTAF calls. he kept saying his plane type "Skylane, Traffic" instead of 'Airport Name, Traffic".
 
They basically have VFR cloud separation minimums. They aren't jumping in 2000 ft. ceilings, not a chance.... The CTAF calls should include the airport they were at.
 
JasonM said:
I watched them time and time again pop out from the clouds and land where they should (which I must admit is pretty dang impressive unless they have some type of GPS on them).

Also the skydive plane was not saying the airport name in his CTAF calls. he kept saying his plane type "Skylane, Traffic" instead of 'Airport Name, Traffic".
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I'm searching for the rules, but they cannot jump through a solid deck, they do have to maintain cloud clearance requirements.

A simple call to FSDO could solve the problem. The local jump company will not talk sensibly with you about it, because if they are not jumping they are not making money.
 
I jumped before I was a pilot. I can recall several marginal (ahem) days where.

1. I suspect we may have been climbing in IMC, and I doubt there was a clearance.

2. We got dropped through cloud decks - including one light snow squall. It was fun at the time...

This was at a very large DZ using twin otters.

We also got dumped out once at 18k AGL. No oxygen. I told my instructor "uhh, I don't feel so good". Response? "Don't worry, you'll be at a lower altitude soon enough".. :)

Of course, I had no clue about the FARs at the time.
 
JasonM said:
Ok, so does anyone have a link to the rules with regard to sky divers jumping in low ceilings? I was out the other day and doing some pattern work and the ceiling was only 2000 AGL with light rain and it was a thick cloud base above. for my entire 2 hours practicing landings, the skydive plane is making calls of "jumpers away 14K and below". Are they allowed to do this? what if I was crossing the runway mid field and they popped out of the clouds right above me? who's fault is this? I watched them time and time again pop out from the clouds and land where they should (which I must admit is pretty dang impressive unless they have some type of GPS on them).

Also the skydive plane was not saying the airport name in his CTAF calls. he kept saying his plane type "Skylane, Traffic" instead of 'Airport Name, Traffic".
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Btw, are you sure they were jumping at your airport? Weather can be very local.
 
The rules don't apply for people who throw themselves at the ground...

Seriously, there are lots of skydiving operations that don't pay a lot of attention to the rules. I've heard them making drop calls when there was a solid ceiling everywhere within 50 miles of the drop zone.
 
I don't think skydivers and aircraft would be realistically able to "see and avoid" each other anyhow...
 
Didn't happen. Stop being a jealous hater.
 
Brad Z said:
Those weren't clouds...it was "industrial haze".
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... yeah Ive heard that before lol

Look up FAR 105.

You lookin' to rat out a DZ?

I'd just ask to talk to the DZO and tell him your concerns and take it from there.
 
JasonM said:
WOW.. These guys are definitely not following the rules. Knowing these smaller airports need the extra income from these guys, would you guys say anything? Obviously can put myself and other pilots in danger.
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Like I said talk to the DZO (Drop Zone Owner) first, then go from there.
 
Are you really going to "see and avoid" falling bodies even if its VFR? If these guys are talking to ATC prior to drop, I don't think going through a layer is a huge deal.

Yes, it would be illegal, but I'm talking practical impact here. I assume they are dropping on the opposite side from the traffic pattern, etc.

Most jump runs are done by GPS anyhow
 
dans2992 said:
Are you really going to "see and avoid" falling bodies even if its VFR? If these guys are talking to ATC prior to drop, I don't think going through a layer is a huge deal.

Yes, it would be illegal, but I'm talking practical impact here. I assume they are dropping on the opposite side from the traffic pattern, etc.
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The rules are there for a reason. There are plenty of aircraft out there without transponders and they don't appreciate having meat bombs dropped on them either...
 
Well lets start with this: What do you mean the "Ceiling?" Seriously, was it broken, because that is a ceiling or are you saying it was completely overcast with NO holes in it?

Here is the deal.. It is not illegal to drop divers above clouds if they can navigate there way under canopy around the clouds, if they cannot you should not be dropping them. Many times I will turn on the green light for them, and they will wait until they have a hole available or give me corrections to hit one.

Chances of you hitting one, if you are flying your pattern correctly is slim, they have their own pattern to fly and as long as you know that then you all should be good, don't do fly overs if you know they are jumping (which you did.)

Some jump zones can push the bounderies sometimes. If you have concerns then have a conversation with the the people who work there like others have said first.
 
kyleb said:
The rules are there for a reason. There are plenty of aircraft out there without transponders and they don't appreciate having meat bombs dropped on them either...
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Nope. The rules are there because in the old days, when it was legal, we put a load of skydivers through a cloud and into a lake and most of them didn't make it out.
 
flyingmoose said:
Well lets start with this: What do you mean the "Ceiling?" Seriously, was it broken, because that is a ceiling or are you saying it was completely overcast with NO holes in it?
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I mean a solid layer of gray light rain clouds. Not broken or scattered. I was limited to staying in the pattern at the airport and at pattern ALT I had close to minimum VFR seperation from the base above me.

I'm not trying to get this guy in trouble and as I said they were landing exactly where they should be, but I did witness them time and time again pop out from the thick cloud base while flying in the pattern. I just thought there was no way this was ok and felt like if there had been another plane flying across midfield, he could have been in a situation.

So what is your, my, our responsibility when we witness such events? Talk to the DZ operator is the answer I get, so that's how I will approach it. I just hope that others don't let this stuff happen and put myself at risk when visiting other non towered fields.
 
at my airport on july 4th they were also jumping with 1500 ft ceilings wondering same thing
 
kyleb said:
The rules are there for a reason. There are plenty of aircraft out there without transponders and they don't appreciate having meat bombs dropped on them either...
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I imagine there's not a lot of aircraft without transponders tooling along in the supposed solid overcast?
 
jbarrass said:
I imagine there's not a lot of aircraft without transponders tooling along in the supposed solid overcast?
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Depends on the height of the ceiling, if you aren't going to be over 1,500AGL who cares about clouds at 2500?
 
Skylane81E said:
Depends on the height of the ceiling, if you aren't going to be over 1,500AGL who cares about clouds at 2500?
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If you are not going over 1500 agl you will not run into a skydiver in freefall. So chill out people.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If you are not going over 1500 agl you will not run into a skydiver in freefall. So chill out people.
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No, but I could be on approach in the soup to that airport or a nearby one and get tangled up with one of those chutes.

It's illegal for a reason.

--Carlos V.
 
Unbeliever said:
No, but I could be on approach in the soup to that airport or a nearby one and get tangled up with one of those chutes.

It's illegal for a reason.

--Carlos V.
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You are right that its illegal for a reason, but that is not one of them. #1 ATC should know of the drop and not vector you into it #2 They are not flying around in the approach gate.

I am not trying to say that is ok for them to be flying through clouds, because that is certainly not ok and def illegal.
 
Unbeliever said:
No, but I could be on approach in the soup to that airport or a nearby one and get tangled up with one of those chutes.

It's illegal for a reason.

--Carlos V.
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It's illegal so jumpers don't drown. If the ceiling is below 2,000 you won't have jumpers punching clouds. If you are above 4,000 it is mostly all highspeed meat and ATC will know about them even if it is murky. Not a safety issue get over it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
It's illegal so jumpers don't drown. If the ceiling is below 2,000 you won't have jumpers punching clouds. If you are above 4,000 it is mostly all highspeed meat and ATC will know about them even if it is murky. Not a safety issue get over it.
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BS. VFR is legal and common 500' below a layer and there are tens of thousands of Cubs, Ercoupes, Aeroncas and the like which don't have transponders and which ATC can't see. Dumping people through clouds is illegal and stupid and you can't rationalize that away.
 
The risk is the same with or without the overcast. If you want your mind to function properly you need to let it open like a parachute.
 
JasonM said:
WOW.. These guys are definitely not following the rules. Knowing these smaller airports need the extra income from these guys, would you guys say anything?
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Absolutely. I'd start by a polite mention of what happened to the operator of the jump business. If that doesn't work, try airport management, and if that doesn't work, give it to the FSDO to handle.

Obviously can put myself and other pilots in danger.
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...not to mention the jumpers, too.
 
dans2992 said:
Are you really going to "see and avoid" falling bodies even if its VFR? If these guys are talking to ATC prior to drop, I don't think going through a layer is a huge deal.
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It sure can be for the plane without a radio who has no warning of what's happening, and to the jumpers who aren't expecting to be falling out of the cloud onto an airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
It sure can be for the plane without a radio who has no warning of what's happening, and to the jumpers who aren't expecting to be falling out of the cloud onto an airplane.
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Ok, but this can happen with or without a cloud layer.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, but this can happen with or without a cloud layer.
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Not by surprise, as without an obscuration between them and the plane, the jump pilot will be able to see the plane in time to abort the drop, and if that fails, the jumpers will be able to see the plane with time to avoid it. Hence, the rule.
 
There's no practical way the jump pilot can see a plane 10,000 ft below, clouds or not.

Also, unless the jumper is under canopy, it's very hard/impossible to even see aircraft, much less avoid them.

Yes, they ARE breaking the rules. I'm just not sure it's any higher risk than jumping VFR...
 
Everyone here has had an airplane to airplane miss that close. Welcome to the sky, chickens don't fly.
 
Jeez, jumpers scare me to begin with. I mean really, 200lb meat sacks falling at 125mph where I am trying to fly a plane...gah! Add them popping out of clouds at 2000 AGL and it becomes a horror show for me.

Somebody needs to drop a dime on these guys before somebody gets hurt.
 
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