Skidding after touchdown in crosswind landings

[exncsurfer]

I'm curious, with the direct linked nosewheels, is there any pedal kick when the nosewheel goes from being turned(rudder deflected) to straight after it touches? Seems like the 'loose' linkage, or no linkage is the better design for landings, no?

 

[James331]

Correct, however I view both of them the same. If a professional test pilot could only get a 15kt demo component when the airplane was manufactured, I sure don't want to be the one that tries to perform it under a 19kt component. If you would like to attempt it, more power to you.

You shouldn't, they arnt the same, at all.

Id say 70% of my pre solo students did a few laps in the pattern with a over max demo crosswind, if a pre solo student can do it, a PPL shouldn't have a issue.

 

[josephades]

Id say 70% of my pre solo students did a few laps in the pattern with a over max demo crosswind, if a pre solo student can do it, a PPL shouldn't have a issue.

Wow! You must be real confident in your students. Most instructors for safety reasons will only endorse up to 8 kts of x-wind. Just curious what the max limitation is that you give them.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Yes the nosewheel or tailwheel in planes that turn those with the rudders kick you, fortunately the safer way (if wind from right, left rudder kicks you left). Screeching back and forth can come from several sources. Pilot error or gusts. If you land crabbed, you need more rudder and more lean into the wind or a go around. This is pretty strong winds, 15 knots cross or higher things like this start happening, although bad can happen at slower. Use those fast reflexes to do little corrections.

 

[jspilot]

I had several wheelchair students back in the day. Left hand on the yoke, right hand on the hand control...which moved fore and aft for throttle changes and left/right for rudder control. When they did crosswind landings they pretty much let go of everything as soon as the upwind wheel touched down. Newton's Law of Motion says (paraphrased) that a body in motion will follow a direct path unless diverted by an outside force. In airplane terms, that means that if the airplane is moving parallel to the centerline at touchdown it will continue parallel to the centerline. Whatever aileron and rudder inputs you have at touchdown should be maintained as the airplane slows, although it will take more upwind aileron (resulting in full control deflection) as it slows. As to the rudder, that depends on the airplane. Some have a direct connection between the rudder pedals and the nosewheel and others do not. In most cases, the nosewheel goes in the direction of motion as soon as it touches the surface.

Bottom line: Fuselage parallel to the centerline, aircraft motion parallel to the centerline. On touchdown let Newton's Law take over and keep your feet off of the rudder pedals.

Bob Gardner

This is exactly right! I think your problem might be that you are immediately releasing back pressure on the yoke once you touch down! If so, that is completely wrong and will cause that plane to be traveling at high speeds down the runway. This will make you feel like you are skidding or tipping to one side because the plane has almost all its momentum moving forward and, right after touchdown if you are coming in fast, you are very close to flying still and the wind will have a substantial effect on the wing. What you need to do is use aerodynamic breaking and actually, once touched down and fully established in the role out, pull firmly back on the yoke. The plane won't take back off because it will be far below Vr. You will notice an amazing difference in the breaking of the plane.

As Bob said, you won't need your feet in the pedals this way but if you find yourself drifting, well just correct like you would for taxing off center.

I had a terrible crosswind landing on one of my first flights as a private pilot 5 or so years ago. I went up with an instructor on the next flight and he gave me the tip about aerodynamic breaking in crosswinds and ever since I use it. It really does work wonders!

 

[denverpilot]

Hey as follow up, I'll put my "Holy crap I'm about to take a CFI checkride" hat on and say...

The FAA wrote this really decent book about this stuff that anyone can download for free in PDF form (and Bob's employer makes a really nice reprint of if you like book versions!)...

It's called the Airplane Flying Handbook, and your question can be best researched by reading pages 8-27 through 8-33.

The section entitled, "Faulty Approaches and Landings", with a good hard look at the sub-sections:

- Bouncing During Touchdown
- Touchdown in a Drift or Crab

And what's interesting to me is that there's a sub-section entitled:

- Slow Final Approach

But not one entitled:

- Fast Final Approach

Which seems like a good addition the next time it's rewritten.

Seriously, check out that entire section. It's a quick read. And it's got pretty pictures and everything.

 

[James331]

Wow! You must be real confident in your students. Most instructors for safety reasons will only endorse up to 8 kts of x-wind. Just curious what the max limitation is that you give them.

Well first off, it's was with me riding shotgun first, depending on the student I may let them do it solo.

I didn't give my students any limitations,

I'd just have them call me and brief me on their flight before they could go up, sometimes I'd just say "OK, have a good flight", other times I'd ask for more info and prod them on some weather/NOTAM or other thing mentioned, or something they didn't mention that I saw, I'd be sure they knew what to keep a eye on, and have them call when when they were wheels down.

Minus one time, well before I'd have to make a executive decision, and TELL them not to lift; the student would end up pulling the plug on it after I asked a couple questions, them self.

IMO, this provided my guys with a safe environment, without giving them mindless paint by numbers stuff, which is much more dangerous, as once they get their ticket they don't need to follow any cross wind or other such limits, it's all about teaching good decision making, not making arbitrary rules.



On a similar note

 

[neilw2]

I thought I was doing myself a favor coming in slightly faster - especially on gusty days where I have a gain/loss on short final, but now I understand why I should stick to the POH approach speed. I'll give that a try.

I understand your thought process. When I was learning for my private I was always taught to come in faster on a gusty day. However, I have found, as others have already stated, that there is really no need unless there is really, really BAD gusts. Keep it slow!

I have my share of ugly landings as everyone else does, however, I have found as long as I keep it slow there is very little risk bent metal or worse. For me in my 182 the key is to aim for 60-65 kts on final and throttle closed when the runway is made. If I don't hear the stall warning on the "flare" then I know I was too fast.

But let me share with you something an old CFI taught me when I wanted to play those "let me get a feel for it" games. He said, "It doesn't matter. Use whatever it takes and make the airplane stay exactly where you want it. Don't let it drift left or right and don't let the nose start moving left or right. Put whatever control input is necessary to stop it from moving RIGHT NOW and if you over did it, immediately reverse it, RIGHT NOW.

I think think the whole concept of crosswind landings is taught wrong by a lot of instructors. People try to make it so it's mechanical, "wing into the wind, rudder to keep aligned with runway"- although that is overall correct, I feel like these "rules" make it over complicated. Do whatever you have to do to get it settled on the runway aligned correctly!

 

[denverpilot]

I think think the whole concept of crosswind landings is taught wrong by a lot of instructors. People try to make it so it's mechanical, "wing into the wind, rudder to keep aligned with runway"- although that is overall correct, I feel like these "rules" make it over complicated. Do whatever you have to do to get it settled on the runway aligned correctly!

Everyone needs the descriptions so they know what the heck is going on at first. Can't do stuff you don't understand aerodynamically.

But application is where that falls apart a little bit. People remember the description more than they remember that they can just boot a rudder pedal or bank a little more or adjust the power, or do all three at once, and quickly but smoothly, which is really what needs to happen.

Very little in the pattern requires fast large smooth control movements until you get to gusty crosswinds. You spend a lot of time reinforcing that yanking and banking is not desired for smooth flight and landings, and then the wind kicks up and you have to tell folks to yank and bank but smoothly and quickly.

For athletes, it's like switching from hitting a single softball to hitting fastballs repetitively until the airplane is tied down. That's the best analogy I've been able to come up with.

For video game players an analogy that works is you're switching from blasting everything on the map in an FPS, to twitching the mouse just right for a sniper shot all the way across the map, and making five or ten of them in a row while running and stopping between each.

You can "up the game" on yourself in good wind conditions by trying for inches of accuracy instead of hundreds of feet. You won't even get close the first time you try, but you'll work harder at it and that's the zone you have to go into in a gusty crosswind. You won't get inches in the heavier weather but you'll get within feet and that's going to be good enough.

 

[RussR]

This article by Rick Durden seems appropriate here. It's all about landing slow and under control.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182656-1.html

 

[RyanB]

You shouldn't, they arnt the same, at all.

Id say 70% of my pre solo students did a few laps in the pattern with a over max demo crosswind, if a pre solo student can do it, a PPL shouldn't have a issue.

Just a difference of opinion I suppose. I just tend to avoid any component greater than what the book states. I've landed in some pretty steep XW's and I rather not press my luck attempting a higher than rated component.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just a difference of opinion I suppose. I just tend to avoid any component greater than what the book states. I've landed in some pretty steep XW's and I rather not press my luck attempting a higher than rated component.

Keep in mind, it's a "demonstrated" component..."rated" implies a limitation in a lot of people's minds.

 

[Stewartb]

It isn't a "rated" component. It's a reported wind value. It's simply a statement of the crosswind that was experienced during an airplane's fight trials.

 

[dell30rb]

Nice timing. The ACS gurus at FAA HQ are cogitating about changing the "Slow Flight and Stalls" section of the ACS to add a MCA in addition to Maneuvering During Slow Flight. IMHO instructors do not place enough emphasis on operations close to stall speed, where the coefficient of lift is greatest. This leads to fear of getting too slow and ignoring 1.3 VSo and 1.2 VSo.

Bob Gardner

Glad to hear that. What is meant by MCA? Minimum controllable airspeed?

I don't personally agree with the 'recover at the first sign of a stall' method many instructors teach. Many students probably make it through training without actually stalling the plane.

 

[DaleB]

Glad to hear that. What is meant by MCA? Minimum controllable airspeed?

I don't personally agree with the 'recover at the first sign of a stall' method many instructors teach. Many students probably make it through training without actually stalling the plane.

MCA is indeed Minimum Controllable Airspeed. And I'd hate like heck to think anyone would make it through training without a good amount of time spent maneuvering there. I know I did, and that was only a few years ago. At least a couple of hours poking along right on the edge of a stall, stall warning whining, the poor airplane mushing around like it had just gotten dumped into a bucket of goo. The real fun was with my last instructor. We took the 172 up to about 4000 AGL, stalled it and rode it down like a falling leaf, stalled the whole way, recovered at maybe 1K AGL. Good times.

 

[Harold Rutila]

I'll explain this like I explain it in a lesson briefing. Take it one point at a time.

--
Approach speed on final: 1.3 x Vso.
Vso is stall speed in landing configuration (flaps down). Find this in POH Chapter 5, Performance.

Gust factors: Take the difference between the sustained wind and the gust factor, and add it to your approach speed on final.

Example: Wind 170@20G25. 25-20 = 5. Add 5 knots to the approach speed on final.​

Touchdown procedures: Consider each one of these points carefully.

1. When you are first getting used to performing crosswind landings correctly, put the airplane into a slip earlier, rather than later. An example of doing this "later" would be flying the airplane with the nose pointed into the wind as you descend towards the runway, and then "kicking" the nose to align it with the center line while over the runway, applying necessary aileron input to prevent the wind from pushing your aircraft sideways as you land -- all within a few seconds.

Instead of doing this "nose alignment" action over the runway, practice doing it on a 1/2 mile final. We call this a slip. Once you have this established, you can focus more on smoothly adjusting pitch and power to achieve a target airspeed and descent path.

2. On the point of smoothly adjusting pitch, don't "pump" the elevator. Smoothly adjust and re-adjust the pitch of the nose to achieve the desired speed on final until you cross over the numbers. Upon crossing over the numbers, keep the runway in sight by maintaining a slightly nose-low pitch attitude.

3. The ailerons sometimes will need to be aggressively adjusted to counteract gusts. Remember, your goal is to keep the wind from pushing the airplane to either side of the runway. Adjust the ailerons accordingly. Of course, when landing, you still need the aileron input! Don't let it all out just because you're about to land.

4. When you touch down with correct aileron input, one wheel will touch down first. As you decelerate, the other wheel will naturally touch the ground without the need for you to adjust anything. This period of time is very short. Focus on keeping the nose gear off the runway until it, too, is ready to touch the ground on its own. If there is any need to "steer the airplane," you probably don't have enough aileron input to counteract the crosswind.
--

Keep in mind that performing crosswind landings correctly is a task mastered best with someone who already knows how to do it correctly. There is nothing wrong with hiring a CFI for an hour to work specifically on this rather technical task until you feel comfortable enough to practice it solo.

 

[Kritchlow]

When I touch down, I am fully aligned with the runway. The issue I am having is trying to maintain control after the landing. Improper speed management on my end was cited. Proper use aileron deflection was established. Now I need to clarify the proper use of the rudder once on the ground.



You are not a test pilot. Some planes have a maximum x-wind component, where if you do exceed it, you can cause damage. The key here is maximum demonstrated x-wind. It simply means that this is what Piper tested when they wrote the POH. Nothing wrong with exceeding this number if you can do it safely and are comfortable with it.

Lol!!! But exceeding what is tested makes you a...........

 

[Kritchlow]

I understand your thought process. When I was learning for my private I was always taught to come in faster on a gusty day. However, I have found, as others have already stated, that there is really no need unless there is really, really BAD gusts. Keep it slow!

I have my share of ugly landings as everyone else does, however, I have found as long as I keep it slow there is very little risk bent metal or worse. For me in my 182 the key is to aim for 60-65 kts on final and throttle closed when the runway is made. If I don't hear the stall warning on the "flare" then I know I was too fast.




I think think the whole concept of crosswind landings is taught wrong by a lot of instructors. People try to make it so it's mechanical, "wing into the wind, rudder to keep aligned with runway"- although that is overall correct, I feel like these "rules" make it over complicated. Do whatever you have to do to get it settled on the runway aligned correctly!

You need to start with the fundamentals. Aileron and rudder are those fundamentals.

 

[neilw2]

You need to start with the fundamentals. Aileron and rudder are those fundamentals.

True...you definitely have to learn the fundamentals but I think practicing slow flight helps with that more. I think it makes it more complicated than it has to be sometimes when teaching crosswinds.

When I first started doing them in my head I was thinking "Ok, wind from left, left wing down, right foot down" and not concentrating on following straight down the runway.

I find my best landings are when I don't overthink the crosswind thing. I do whatever I have to do to get the airplane where I want it. Even if the book says "left wing down" I don't have it down just because I think I'm supposed to. Of course logic will tell you I will need it down to keep the plane on course to the runway but it comes more natural when I just do it by feel.

Instead of thinking "ok left xwind, left wing down, right rudder" I line up for final and think "Ok Im drifting right of course, lets put a little left aileron in to keep the center line, ok let me kick in a little right rudder to to keep the nose straight."


Subtle I guess but made all the difference for me. Just a different mindset...

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Hey guys

I fly a Piper Archer that feels "lighter" than a lot of the archers on the field - 1533 basic empty weight. With regular full flap landings, once touched down, I have to push the nose down for 1-2 seconds and/or retract the flaps to get some traction and gain steering control, and to stop those "mini bounces".

It gets trickier with nasty crosswind landings. The other day I had a crosswind down runway 32. Winds were 280 at 23 gusting 30. Landed with one notch of flaps, touched down very soft with the left wheel first. Once touched down, I had full left aileron deflection, but the plane was skidding in a "crabbed" position for a few seconds until I retracted the flaps and nosed down to get some traction. Even then, I felt some skidding going on, but it happened too quickly and I can't fully recall what else I did, including with the rudder.

Is this normal behavior? Or am I doing something wrong? I know for a fact that once I was touched down, I released pressure from the rudder just to see what the plane was doing and how to react. Do I need to apply opposite rudder once touched down? I feel like at that point, it will just take me off centerline, but then again, I could be wrong. It happens so quickly that I don't get a chance to test it out.

I've also experienced this in a Cessna under similar conditions.

All input is greatly appreciated

Thanks!

Is this your airplane or does it belong to an FBO? I can't believe an FBO would allow you to take his or her archer up with cross winds this high! It's also uncomfortable to be beat up in a Small airplane in winds this high. It sounds as though you need a good cfi to go with you and go thru this with some 90 degree direct cross winds. Personally , I get no thrill being bounced around in a light aircraft in high wind. It's also an excellent way to damage an airplane if your not a high time pilot! How many hours do you have? important factor. If a factory test pilot determined that the cross wind coefficient was a certain number, I'd believe them! unless of course you feel your better informed.

 

[bobmrg]

MCA is indeed Minimum Controllable Airspeed. And I'd hate like heck to think anyone would make it through training without a good amount of time spent maneuvering there. I know I did, and that was only a few years ago. At least a couple of hours poking along right on the edge of a stall, stall warning whining, the poor airplane mushing around like it had just gotten dumped into a bucket of goo. The real fun was with my last instructor. We took the 172 up to about 4000 AGL, stalled it and rode it down like a falling leaf, stalled the whole way, recovered at maybe 1K AGL. Good times.

That is the crux of the argument at FAA HQ (or OKC, or wherever these things are hashed out). Someone woke up to the fact that teaching slow flight with the restriction that one beep of the stall warning was a failure kept the airspeed range between the stall warning and the stall a complete mystery to the student. Not good, since the coefficient of lift is greatest in that airspeed range. I suspect that the "never ignore a warning" camp will lose this argument and that Minimum Controllable Airspeed will soon be part of the ACS.

What you and your instructor did mirrors my teaching basic students way back when...yoke as far back as it will go, stall warning screaming, ailerons ineffective, keeping the wings level with rudder, and going down like a freight elevator.

Bob

 

[MAKG1]

Is this your airplane or does it belong to an FBO? I can't believe an FBO would allow you to take his or her archer up with cross winds this high! It's also uncomfortable to be beat up in a Small airplane in winds this high. It sounds as though you need a good cfi to go with you and go thru this with some 90 degree direct cross winds. Personally , I get no thrill being bounced around in a light aircraft in high wind. It's also an excellent way to damage an airplane if your not a high time pilot! How many hours do you have? important factor. If a factory test pilot determined that the cross wind coefficient was a certain number, I'd believe them! unless of course you feel your better informed.

I've never had an FBO limit my crosswind as a private pilot. CAP does, but that's different.

The only time I've ever run out of rudder in a slip was when I tried to do one at altitude for a photo. 90 knots, full power, full right rudder, and as much left bank as I could. I held altitude, but I couldn't get much more than 20 deg bank without turning. And dang, that took a hell of a lot of effort. Both hands on the yoke, standing on the rudder pedal.

 

[jordane93]

The flight school I worked at has a 25 knot wind limitation for renters and anything that exceeds the max demonstrated crosswind component is off limits.

 

[DaleB]

Someone woke up to the fact that teaching slow flight with the restriction that one beep of the stall warning was a failure kept the airspeed range between the stall warning and the stall a complete mystery to the student.

What earthly good would that do? I don't really see the point to it. Especially given that most stall warnings start squawking well above the stall AoA. I disconnected the stall warning vane in my -12 when I added AoA (that cost me all of twelve bucks), but that sucker was set to come on at something like 7 knots above stall. How would a new pilot know, for example, what a Cherokee feels like right before it stalls, so he or she can recognize it if there's no power for the stall buzzer?

In everything I have flown -- admittedly a small sample -- the stall warning tells you you're about to get slower than you probably want to be, not that you're on the edge of a stall. I agree that one should never ignore a warning... but there are definitely times, especially with the stall or AoA warning, when you absolutely want to induce that warning and learn to deal with it. Not doing so can lead to new pilots being afraid of it and over-reacting -- or landing too fast.

 

[bobmrg]

What earthly good would that do? I don't really see the point to it. Especially given that most stall warnings start squawking well above the stall AoA. I disconnected the stall warning vane in my -12 when I added AoA (that cost me all of twelve bucks), but that sucker was set to come on at something like 7 knots above stall. How would a new pilot know, for example, what a Cherokee feels like right before it stalls, so he or she can recognize it if there's no power for the stall buzzer?

In everything I have flown -- admittedly a small sample -- the stall warning tells you you're about to get slower than you probably want to be, not that you're on the edge of a stall. I agree that one should never ignore a warning... but there are definitely times, especially with the stall or AoA warning, when you absolutely want to induce that warning and learn to deal with it. Not doing so can lead to new pilots being afraid of it and over-reacting -- or landing too fast.

You are right, of course. Apparently, there is someone (or a group) in charge of the ACS who feel that no warning should be ignored. I can accept that intellectually, but it is throwing the baby out with the bath water to say (Risk management PA.VII.R7) "Failure to manage pitch attitude and power to avoid a stall warning or stall." I can't buy that, and I trust that the folks advocating the addition of MCA will prevail.

Bob

 

[Clark1961]

The flight school I worked at has a 25 knot wind limitation for renters and anything that exceeds the max demonstrated crosswind component is off limits.

Damn! That is giving up a lot of airframe capability on the average Cesper. (or is it Pina?)

 

[jordane93]

Damn! That is giving up a lot of airframe capability on the average Cesper. (or is it Pina?)

Yea it may be overly cautious but I'd take overly cautious over a busted plane.

 

[mchesney]

I find doing a "sideslip drill" without landing can help get the hang of that. Here's what it looks like in my Sky Arrow:

Great video. Watching the yarn really shows what you're doing with your feet