Single engine into a Class Bravo suggestions

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Myfpilot

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Myfpilot
Hello all,

Living out here in San Diego, one of the benefits is having all sorts of airspace around us. I have seen several private single engine aircraft fly into SAN before, and it lead me to this question:

For those that have done it, what do you recommend for someone who is looking into taking a single engine aircraft, say a 172, and wanting to fly it in/out LAS IFR. If it makes your answer more specific. It would be an R model, or an SP.

Do note, this question also relates to anyone who has done something similar to other more congested Class B's/C's.

I am looking at bringing some friends to LAS near the new years time and certainly want to avoid that dreaded drive on the 15 North. But, also want to make sure I take proper steps ahead of time to avoid any issues.

Thank you all for your help, suggestions! :)
 
I flew a 172 into LAS solo with less than 60 hours in my logbook, and then several times since then both VFR and IFR.

It is a non issue for anyone who is used to flying using SOCAL.

But be prepared to pay the landing fees.

Avoid the push. You can look at flightaware or even call the tower to see when those are.
 
Just call approach and tell them what you want to do.

Alaskaflyer had some good suggestions.

Keep in mind there are smaller fields nearby that are much cheaper in terms of landing and overnighting. Going to the big airport is always fun though.
 
In my experience in flying to large, air-carrier-dominated airports, the principal issue is getting around on the ground. I study the airport diagram beforehand, and print it larger (for my old-fart eyes).
 
I would be looking at Henderson instead. LAS is not that bad to get into but the fees are high and the FBO is not really happy to see a single engine piston there, at least that was my feeling 2X. Henderson was great.
 
Myfpilot said:
Hello all,

Living out here in San Diego, one of the benefits is having all sorts of airspace around us. I have seen several private single engine aircraft fly into SAN before, and it lead me to this question:

For those that have done it, what do you recommend for someone who is looking into taking a single engine aircraft, say a 172, and wanting to fly it in/out LAS IFR. If it makes your answer more specific. It would be an R model, or an SP.

Do note, this question also relates to anyone who has done something similar to other more congested Class B's/C's.

I am looking at bringing some friends to LAS near the new years time and certainly want to avoid that dreaded drive on the 15 North. But, also want to make sure I take proper steps ahead of time to avoid any issues.

Thank you all for your help, suggestions! :)
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Are you a member of Plus One by any chance? There was a CFI in the club who recently posted on club board that he was looking for a ride to Vegas and would offer free dual in exchange. It is doable, but if you have never done it before, it is always nice to have someone along with experience.

Personally, if I was in a 172, I would look at the outlying fields. I do class B airports fairly frequently, in fact, MYF to PHX is a regular trip for me, but I prefer to have a fast complex aircraft for that - really helps the controllers fit you in if you can keep your speed up.
 
Luvrv8 said:
I would be looking at Henderson instead. LAS is not that bad to get into but the fees are high and the FBO is not really happy to see a single engine piston there, at least that was my feeling 2X. Henderson was great.
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That is what I love about Phoenix - no fees (or at least waived with fuel) and Cutter treats the single piston guys just as well as the jets.
 
The _only_ problem you might encounter (probably not at LAS though since it's not all that busy) is that a 172 is slooooow. Much slower than pretty much everybody else there. That can make it more difficult to fit you in the flow of traffic.

Other than that, there really isn't anything to it.
 
The ground handling & fuel fees at LAS may exceed the cost of the flight. :eek:

That said, I've flown into LAS, North Vegas (VGT) and Henderson (HND). All are fine. I'd choose something other than LAS, though, unless I were visiting someplace within walking distance.
 
I really thought KHND did a great job when we visited Vegas. I wouldn't have bothered with KLAS.
 
wsuffa said:
The ground handling & fuel fees at LAS may exceed the cost of the flight. :eek:

That said, I've flown into LAS, North Vegas (VGT) and Henderson (HND). All are fine. I'd choose something other than LAS, though, unless I were visiting someplace within walking distance.
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Have you ever flown into KPHL? For a class B airport, the fees were very reasonable (in 2005). $7 landing fee waived with fuel purchase and no handling fees. That's how it should be!
 
I just returned from Las Vegas and RONed at Henderson (KHND). I didn't see going into LAS as a problem, but it was much more expensive and really not geared to your type of plane. That being said, if you're willing to pay the money, I'm sure they'll take you. It is closer to the strip. As has been said, try to stay away from peak hours or you may be holding for awhile. Last time I flew into San Diego, they had me circle until they could get me in between arriving jets and that was IFR. I over heard a military aircraft request a touch and go at D/FW recently; the request was denied.

I don't rule out going into the busier airports if it really serves a purpose, but don't do it on a lark. I really study up on the arrival/departure procedures and airport diagrams (taxiways). If it's busy, controllers can be stressed and may not be as nice as some other places. If you aren't sure what you're doing, it may be difficult to get help with everyone in a rush.

Have a good trip.

Best,

Dave
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's nothing.....they have solo student pilots flying in and out of HNL.
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The one Class B I've flown in and out of. Really no big deal. Of course, the plane I was renting was based there, so I don't know about any extra fees.
 
LearDriver said:
HND or VGT. The fees at the fbo's will kill you at LAS.
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General rule of thumb in aviation...if there is a Signature FBO based on the field it the fees will make you run screaming.

Latest fuel price at Signature LAS for 100LL - $8.40/galllon!

Atlantic isn't a whole lot better - $7.82.
 
sba55 said:
Have you ever flown into KPHL? For a class B airport, the fees were very reasonable (in 2005). $7 landing fee waived with fuel purchase and no handling fees. That's how it should be!
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I've not been into PHL. I've been to several other Class B airports. Some are reasonable... Hobby (HOU) and CLT come to mind. Others, like LAS, are not.
 
wsuffa said:
I've not been into PHL. I've been to several other Class B airports. Some are reasonable... Hobby (HOU) and CLT come to mind. Others, like LAS, are not.
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I think BOS is the worst - Massport's landing fee for a 172 is something like $450-500 alone...and that is on top of Signature's fuel ($8.44/gal)
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think BOS is the worst - Massport's landing fee for a 172 is something like $450-500 alone...and that is on top of Signature's fuel ($8.44/gal)
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LGA may top that, assuming you can get a reservation to get in. I use OWD when I go to Boston.
 
wsuffa said:
I've not been into PHL. I've been to several other Class B airports. Some are reasonable... Hobby (HOU) and CLT come to mind. Others, like LAS, are not.
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How was CLT? I may be flying there with some regularity. My brother has a job producing for a record label there and commutes back and forth to Raleigh.

I figure its easy enough to get in and out but how are the taxi and FBO prices. I pay a wet rental rate from my club and a long ground time can really kill me $$
 
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dell30rb said:
How was CLT? I may be flying there with some regularity. My brother has a job producing for a record label there and commutes back and forth to Raleigh.
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CLT was fine. I got a "keep your speed up as long as you can on final", so I did. Drop gear over threshold, throttle back, and still made one of the first turn-offs. Got an intersection take-off, which saved time.

FBO was great, and costs were quite reasonable. It's been a few years, though, so I can't vouch for things today. IIRC, the FBO was Wilson.
 
dell30rb said:
How was CLT? I may be flying there with some regularity. My brother has a job producing for a record label there and commutes back and forth to Raleigh.

I figure its easy enough to get in and out but how are the taxi and FBO prices. I pay a wet rental rate from my club and a long ground time can really kill me $$
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Wilson (the FBO at CLT) is pretty nice to the small fry and CLT approach is tolerant but you should avoid the pushes. Ground transportation out of the airport is a whole lot less expensive than we have up here at Dulles (and downtown is closer).

Is he actually going to downtown CLT?
 
I fly to Vegas on a regular basis in my single engine DA40. I've been to all three Vegas airports. LAS is my preferred choice. The reason why I like it is because I rarely stay overnight and my business is close to the strip. Atlantic waives fees if you buy 15 gallons or more and provides a free shuttle service. So I pay a $15 security fee, probably a $1.50 more per gallon and in return I avoid a rental car or a really expensive taxi and I'm much closer to my ultimate destination. To me this makes LAS no more expensive and probable less so all in then the other two airports.

I file an IFR plan going in, get vectored a little to the east and then land on 19R which is right where the FBOs are. This has been SOP the last 10 times I flew in there. Once I got 25L and had to taxi across the entire field to get to Atlantic so be prepared.

I usually leave VFR since it seems to get me out faster. Once I had to wait about 25 minutes (think DA40 canopy +110F heat) but usually it's less than a five minute wait.

I think LAS is the safest airport of the three. It has huge crossing runways that are really wide and multiple controllers watching out for you. Plus you can spot it 50 miles away. Flying VFR out of Henderson to the east can put you scary close to big rocks with no plan B. Last time I was there, one guy was working ground and tower with planes everywhere. I don't think I'll fly VFR out of there again.

I'm not crazy about North Las Vegas but it's been so long since I've been there I don't remember why.
 
flyingron said:
Is he actually going to downtown CLT?
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Yeah. The place he needs to go is less than 10 minutes from CLT. I'd fly into gastonia or concord but they are both probably 30 minutes away with a little traffic.
 
If they tell you to keep your speed up on final, when do you guys finally slow down? Do you approach at 100+kts and then pull power and float all the way down the runway?
 
AirDC said:
If they tell you to keep your speed up on final, when do you guys finally slow down? Do you approach at 100+kts and then pull power and float all the way down the runway?
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Pulling power at the end of a runway at a Class B airport won't have you floating all the way down it! :no: Pull at short final, put in full flaps, and push to keep from ballooning. Be good to practice a few times before you get there, though. And don't pull the power while in ground effect. You want to be slowing down quickly. When we came into O'Hare in a 172, we had almost 2 miles in which to get down and stopped.
 
AirDC said:
If they tell you to keep your speed up on final, when do you guys finally slow down? Do you approach at 100+kts and then pull power and float all the way down the runway?
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If you know your plane well, it's really not a problem to start to slow on short final. With 10,000 feet of runway, floating shouldn't be an issue.

I don't want to do it every day (it doesn't make the turbocharger very happy) but occasionally it's fine.
 
gprellwitz said:
Pull at short final, put in full flaps, and push to keep from ballooning.
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Try practicing at altitude a few times. Set up about a 550 fpm descent at cruise speed, then pull the power off all at once and maintain your descent rate while slowing to max flap extension speed - then put in full flaps and push on the yoke to maintain your descent rate while you slow to 65 knots or whatever your regular final approach speed is. Once you reach your target speed, trim it and land normally. If you can have this accomplished about the time you cross the fence you'll be in good shape.
 
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Wingsofglass said:
Flying VFR out of Henderson to the east can put you scary close to big rocks with no plan B. Last time I was there, one guy was working ground and tower with planes everywhere. I don't think I'll fly VFR out of there again.
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Uhh, just depart South and climb a bit before turning East. It's not like you can't see the rocks.

Are you serious? ;)

(Plus, those aren't rocks anyway. Those are mole-hills. They're not that big. They are dark and a significant threat at night, however. Don't blast off over them without enough altitude to glide to something more hospitable. Not that hard.)

The bigger thing to note going to all of the LAS airports is those well-depicted jet routes in and out of the valley. There really is high speed aluminum tubing along those. Avoid.

VFR flight filling from LAS TRACON, highly recommended.
 
AirDC said:
If they tell you to keep your speed up on final, when do you guys finally slow down? Do you approach at 100+kts and then pull power and float all the way down the runway?
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Pull the power crossing the fence and do a wheel landing.

Piece of cake.
 
Wingsofglass said:
Flying VFR out of Henderson to the east can put you scary close to big rocks with no plan B. Last time I was there, one guy was working ground and tower with planes everywhere. I don't think I'll fly VFR out of there again.
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denverpilot said:
Uhh, just depart South and climb a bit before turning East. It's not like you can't see the rocks.

Are you serious? ;)
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Last time I came out of HND was IFR on a very hot day, full fuel. Not exactly "expedited climb" situation, even with the turbo (we're talking "one eye on the CHT" weather). ATC asked for expedited climb, a simple "unable" netted an alternate vector that worked very well. The hills were a non-issue.

HND's a great little airport. It avoids the restrictions that VGT has between the Class B and Nellis (they're not a safety issue, but they do add a bit of complexity) and it's still close enough to Vegas to work for a longer stay or visit off the strip.
 
AirDC said:
If they tell you to keep your speed up on final, when do you guys finally slow down? Do you approach at 100+kts and then pull power and float all the way down the runway?
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Like others have said, knowing your airplane and being comfortable in it makes a big difference. When I go into PHX in the Duchess, I have been known to fly the approach at 160 with gear and flaps up and as I am approaching the fence, I'll pull the power off pitch up slightly and drop the gear and flaps as I am crossing the fence line - I use a little extra runway than I would at my home field, but not much. I only do that if it is VMC and I make sure I brief the approach and highlight that I am delaying gear extension.

In the 210 (which I have a lot less time), I flew the approach with the gear out and flaps up around 145 kts and pulled the power back crossing the fence and I only added 10 degrees of flaps, but still made one of the first turnoffs.

I have also found that when you are flying a small piston plane into the big city class B, it sometimes helps to give the approach controller a heads up on what kind of approach speed you can give them.
 
HND is the way to go coming from the south. No landing fees, free shuttle to the strip. If there is a overnight fee, its cheap. Klas is also pretty easy in n out but if your not sharp on the radio expect loooong vectors, really high landing fees, expensive gas. The MGM, Hooters and Motel 6 are right out the door though. VGT is busy, airspace is tight, and the airport is a general pain, i hate it. YMMV. VGT will get you a spectacular flight over the strip if you arrive at night vfr with flight following, a night departure out of VGT can get you dead if your going south under the class bravo dodging the hills to the west.


Sent from my iPad
 
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