Single Engine ATP?

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taters

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Taters
I am debating if it is worth it to get this. Just curious if anyone has done this rating and so if it lead to better insurance premiums. I am transitioning to a PC12 for my employer and I am hoping it would be worth it to spend the time $$ and do this. Jeez the written looks like a monster though.
 
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I have both SE and ME ratings on my ATP. It was pretty easy to do, since I'd flown my Cheetah to the site for the ATP ME training/check, and the examiner did a second flight in the Cheetah for $150 extra. Value to me? Pretty much zip unless I want to fly a PC-12, TBM-700, or Carvan in a Part 121 or scheduled 135 operation, and at this point in my life, that ain't likely.

The real qustion for you is whether an ATP has any value in your life. I gather you have only a CPL now, and are wondering whether to get an ATP at all, not just add an SE rating to an existing ATP-AMEL. For the written, there is no doubt that the only way to go is a weekend cram course -- you'll learn the answers to, and pass, the test. If you never fly for an air carrier, you'll never really need any of what you learn again, and the material isn't covered during the ATP practical test -- just the airplane you're going to fly.

What's the value of an ATP outside air carrier ops? I'm told that if you're flying corporate or the like, if you have over 5000 TT, having an ATP means little to the insurer. Therefore, I'd suggest you check with your employer's insurer to find out whether there's any advantage to getting the rating. If so, you should be able to work a way to make it a tax deduction. If not, there's probably no point in doing so unless you have future dreams of flying for an air carrier or, like me, just want to have it for the sake of having it.
 
I second what Ron had to say. I got mine about a week after I got the multi ATP, partly because the DE said he'd do it without an additional oral, which I'd just taken with him, and of course there was no additional written, and I could do it in a 172 [cheap]. Plus, he said he'd do it for $100 or slightly more [I don't recall exactly] if he was at the airport giving another checkride and didn't have to travel in for it...so I coordinated with him on that. Plus, I was talking to the state about a job flying singles into the mntns on various Dept. of Wildlife jobs, and they required the single ATP. I didn't get that job, but the rating only cost me the $100. Didn't hurt to have it, but if it'd been a bunch of money, I likely would not have done it until I had a solid job lead [I knew I could knock the rating out in no time if it became necessary....]
 
The written was a monster. I went to All ATPs for test prep and discovered what a SHAM of an organization that was. I took the SE ATP ride only because my 2 year period was about up, and the nearest guy to do the ME ride is 160 miles away.....

sigh.
 
Well, what ALL ATPs has is a computer with all the questions in it and the answers after you choose. Seems to me that's the GLEIM format, and that's $23.95 and a weekend's worth of time spread as YOU choose.

I don't have a solution to this other than that I passed.
 
I just celebrated the 10th anniversary of my SE ATP. I don't know if it lowered my insurance rate, and I don't use it for Part 135 or 121 ops. I DO know that I now am disappointed with my landing if the nosewheel doesn't come down on the centerline, or if the needles on an ILS don't stay within the doughnut. So it was more than worth it to me (and my family).

Josh
 
jwynne said:
I DO know that I now am disappointed with my landing if the nosewheel doesn't come down on the centerline, or if the needles on an ILS don't stay within the doughnut.
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Heck, you can be that picky about your own performance with even a PPL-IA! And the accident rate would be a lot lower if all PPL's were that way.
 
Yeah. But they have to have seen how the other side thinks about it; some can, some don't care.
 
I'm in the same boat as Cap'n Ron and Baron 55...got it because it was cheap and available after the MEL ride, but it had no appreciable effect on my income or insurance. In my experience, the insurance guys like to see ATP on the certificate without sweating the details. When I worked my way into turboprops and jets, having the ATP smoothed the way.

Bob Gardner
 
Of all the people I know with a single-engine ATP (and that number is dwindling day by day, it seems), I know of none who require it or benefit from it.

Most of the people I know got them before their ATP written expired, so they wouldn't have to take the written again. I got mine so I could fly as a King Air captain...company required "an ATP", and somebody suddenly realized this the day before my upgrade checkride...so I got "an ATP" on my next checkride, which happened to be in the Bonanza, and could then fly as a King Air captain.

Fly safe!

David
 
Contrary to some perspectives, I did my ATP written in one day at ALL ATP's (in Mesa, AZ) and the process worked well for me (as far as simply passing the written).

I sat alone in a room with a computer, where all non-airplane (ie-LTA, Rotary wing,etc) questions had been removed from the databank, straining it down to about 685 questions. It took me about 5 hrs to go through the entire databank the first time. After a short break, it took me about 3 hrs to go through it again. I had answers (not knowledge) pouring out my ears...

Immediately, I was taken to another room where I sat at a computer to take the actual test. In little more than an hour, I was done and scored a 95. :) The entire process took a little over 9 hrs.

But to be quite honest, did I really learn anything? Probably very little. And whatever that little bit was, is now buried so very deeply that I cant remember it. I was able to memorize enough information for a short time, till the test was over. But as far as learning something which impacts my day to day flying, I can not be for certain. I can only hope something useful from the experience remained.

The oral presented to me at my actual ATP check ride (NOT done at ALL ATP's) was far more demanding. It required that I be well versed in the operations, procedures, and systems of the aircraft, way beyond what was asked of me in the written. But then again, it was much more pertinent to the actual aircraft and day. But overall, very little of the information covered in the written was revisited in the oral.

So I am a success story of a "paper mill" type of operation. I successfully passed the written test, but with only a minimal amount of real learning (as far as ATP questioning goes). The process I put my own PPL and CPL students through involved much more depth and understanding of the various aspects of their respective exams, rather than just a superficial knowledge.
 
If I ever get my SES, I'm thinking about taking it in an amphip to ATP standards and tacking on the SEL ATP as well. Until then, I'm satisfied with my commercial SEL
 
Anymouse said:
If I ever get my SES, I'm thinking about taking it in an amphip to ATP standards and tacking on the SEL ATP as well. Until then, I'm satisfied with my commercial SEL
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I wonder if that can be done. After all ATP is mostly about instrument skills and SES is mostly about operating on water. Not sure the two are mutually compatible.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I wonder if that can be done. After all ATP is mostly about instrument skills and SES is mostly about operating on water. Not sure the two are mutually compatible.
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Why not? Instrument flying is instrument flying. The only difference would be when you land. With an amphib, you can demonstrate landing on both land and sea.
 
colomtnflyer said:
The entire process took a little over 9 hrs.
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The process for me took, I'm guessing, about 2-3 years. I bought one of the study books, opened it up, looked at the questions and closed it. Why the heck did I need to learn about 737s and 727s? I was never going to fly one. I went off and got my helicopter add-on instead, which seemed like so much more fun.

Then came the time when I decided to look for another job. It seemed like, to be competitive, you needed an ATP even if the job didn't legally require one, so I bought another study book. I was so stupid that I didn't know there were a separate set of questions for 121 and 135 so I studied all of them. This probably took me a month or two or more since I wasn't in all that much of a hurry. When test day came and I was given a choice of 135 or 121. I chose 135 because that seemed easier and was pleasantly surprised to find only the Beech 1900 questions and no 727 or 737 questions.

What I was going to get at with my story is that even though I studied for this test in the conventional way, I don't know how much I remember about it either. The only thing I remember about 727s and 737s is that 727s have 3 engines and 737s have 2 engines. Does this make any sense? That distinction was important when doing some of the performance problems and it would screw me up.

In answer to the OPs question, I have only a multiengine ATP and have never encountered the need or the want for the single-engine version.
 
Anymouse said:
Why not? Instrument flying is instrument flying. The only difference would be when you land. With an amphib, you can demonstrate landing on both land and sea.
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My point is that the SES probably does not have any requirements for instrument work, especially as an add on. I could be wrong but I don't have the inclination right now to look it up. :D
 
Everskyward said:
The only thing I remember about 727s and 737s is that 727s have 3 engines and 737s have 2 engines. Does this make any sense? That distinction was important when doing some of the performance problems and it would screw me up.
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Wow. When I took the ATP written back in the dark ages, (darker than you, evidently, Mari) the 121 written had only 727 stuff. No 737 stuff.

But I am considering getting a single ATP 1) for the proficiency and 2) to clean up my certificate. But that is pretty much dependent on finding an examiner near me and getting my 195 up to snuff as far as instrument stuff goes.
 
Thanks for the replys, I think Im hold off for a while on the ATP, the POH of this PC12 I just got today is enough to chew on for the time being. I would like to MAYBE move on to Netjets way down the road and then a multi-ATP would make sense to be competitive . For the simple P91 gig I have now should be plenty insurable on the Pilatus and I dont think an ATP will really make a difference on the premium and that was the main reason I was looking into it. Merry Christmas!
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Wow. When I took the ATP written back in the dark ages, (darker than you, evidently, Mari) the 121 written had only 727 stuff. No 737 stuff.
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Ha! I didn't take the ATP written until the dark ages were over (1998). I never figured I would need it or use it so I didn't bother with it for a very long time. I was sadly mistaken, of course, no wait a minute, not sadly... I guess was fortunate to have found a need for it, eventually. :)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
My point is that the SES probably does not have any requirements for instrument work, especially as an add on. I could be wrong but I don't have the inclination right now to look it up. :D
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I do. See page 8 of the ATP-Airplane PTS and 14 CFR 61.157(a). If you already have both ASES and ASEL on your CPL, you can take the ATP in either a sea or land SE airplane, and it's good for both. Ditto for ME. If you do the ride in a seaplane, the only big difference is that you only do missed approaches off the ILS on Area V Task C Precision Instrument Approaches (you can skip the landing out of the nonprecision approach). If you have only ASEL on your CPL and take an ATP in an ASES, you have to do 14 tasks out of the CPL-ASES PTS as part of the ATP ride, but you end up with both land and sea ratings. Ditto for CPL-AMEL doing the ATP in an AMES.
Update six years later (thanks to someone asking about this post today): Both the ATP-Airplane PTS and the cited regulation have been changed since I wrote that in 2007, and it appears to be no longer true. Contact your FSDO for confirmation.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you have only ASEL on your CPL and take an ATP in an ASES, you have to do 14 tasks out of the CPL-ASES PTS as part of the ATP ride, but you end up with both land and sea ratings. Ditto for CPL-AMEL doing the ATP in an AMES.
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Ok. I learned something. But it seems like a tough way to get the seaplane rating doing it that way.
 
No, I had to look this one up, and I'm also certain that Dr. Bruce goes to the journals for equally obscure medical issues.
 
OK...so it looks like Im going to need the ATP very soon...wish I would not have put if off for so long .. but is there any "free" online study prep anyone knows about for the written? I see mypilottest.com has an ATP section but is not up yet..Just thought I would throw this question out there while Im waiting for the book to come...(kinda have limited time frame to study)
Thanks to all and Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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taters said:
OK...so it looks like Im going to need the ATP very soon...wish I would not have put if off for so long .. but is there any "free" online study prep anyone knows about for the written? I see mypilottest.com has an ATP section but is not up yet..Just thought I would throw this question out there while Im waiting for the book to come...(kinda have limited time frame to study)
Thanks to all and Happy Thanksgiving!
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http://www.sheppardair.com/trainingaids.htm
Not free. $75 I think, but it's the way to go to pass this written.
 
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