Simulators

[4RNB]

ANyone with much experience with home simulators? I am considering one, would love to maintain IFR proficiency, not sure I want the expense. Also, it is tough to tell how configurable they are, can I set up plane profiles to be just like or similar to what I fly with regards to avionics and capabilities? Any product suggestions?

Thanks

 

[tsts4]

I have a Redbird TD2 BATD. Since it's a BATD it's legal for logging currency, and in that role it does just fine. The downside is it was expensive for what it is and not user configurable. Mine emulates a 182 with a G1000. I believe, but not 100% sure, that there are other options on the market now from other companies that are user configurable and allow for multiple airframes and avionics suites.

 

[4RNB]

I have a Redbird TD2 BATD. Since it's a BATD it's legal for logging currency, and in that role it does just fine. The downside is it was expensive for what it is and not user configurable. Mine emulates a 182 with a G1000. I believe, but not 100% sure, that there are other options on the market now from other companies that are user configurable and allow for multiple airframes and avionics suites.

What software does it run for simulation?

I am finding it tough to get an answer on this from product suppliers. Gleim responded that they basically only provide hardware and make no offerings of support for configuration. Xplane was similarly not helpful, replying "There are lots of third party developers producing plugins for X-Plane that include those that you have listed but of course we cannot endorse any other developers hardware or software, but you are welcome to try the many forums and social media platforms to seek advice from other users with similar setups as yourself."

I expect that a G1000 cockpit will be similar to my plane but I'd prefer to a G3X PFD, Garmin 500 AP, and 750Xi GPS.

Are there sim/gaming specific forums where these things are discussed?

 

[bflynn]

For just IFR proficiency, X-Plane and some quality add on controls will get you a very usable home simulator. There have been discussions here, they can be found using the search function.

For it to be legal for currency, the simulator has to be certified by the FAA. While you could get build your own and get it certified, from a practical standpoint it means buying one. The lowest price I've seen for a BATD is about 8k.

 

[tsts4]

What software does it run for simulation?

I am finding it tough to get an answer on this from product suppliers. Gleim responded that they basically only provide hardware and make no offerings of support for configuration. Xplane was similarly not helpful, replying "There are lots of third party developers producing plugins for X-Plane that include those that you have listed but of course we cannot endorse any other developers hardware or software, but you are welcome to try the many forums and social media platforms to seek advice from other users with similar setups as yourself."

I expect that a G1000 cockpit will be similar to my plane but I'd prefer to a G3X PFD, Garmin 500 AP, and 750Xi GPS.

Are there sim/gaming specific forums where these things are discussed?

P3D which is the Lockeed-Martin version of MS FlightSim X.

AVSIM AVSIM - The AVSIM Community is the best forum I've found on the subject.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have a Redbird TD2 BATD. Since it's a BATD it's legal for logging currency, and in that role it does just fine. The downside is it was expensive for what it is and not user configurable. Mine emulates a 182 with a G1000. I believe, but not 100% sure, that there are other options on the market now from other companies that are user configurable and allow for multiple airframes and avionics suites.

Yeah, the TD2 is basically a Cessna with a pseudo NAV III system (there is also a round dial option).

That's another downside to some of these - pseudo avionics. They look and feel like the real thing but they are not duplicates in functionality. We have a TD2 in our club. When I do a checkout in one I always show one of the basic limitations.

That's not a knock. They are great for some tasks, but it's good to know their limits.

 

[Albany Tom]

It's a shame that we can't self-certify simulators for IFR currency, based on some simple constraints. As described above, it's not as if the certified devices have any special features going on. If we could build our own, with off the shelf parts, we could put something together that would simulate the systems we actually use, and get more flight training in. Cheaper and safer.

 

[bflynn]

Interesting idea. A certified simulator is defined by a QAG. A kind of open source QAG could allow you to purchase specific components and put them together into an approved configuration. I’m sure there are a few extra steps in there, but the basic idea might be sound.

 

[Martin__]

I wonder about the cost. Would really like a simulator with a GTN 650 / G3X combo to upkeep my IFR currency.

 

[Deelee]

For me, buying a BATD (or any FAA certified simulator) is not worth the cost compared to the benefit. There is a place with a BATD right by the gate to my hangar where I can (in a pinch) get 6 approaches and a hold for less than $200. I prefer to go with a safety pilot if I need to get approaches for currency. But I have, in a pinch, used the BATD.

Buying a BATD doesn't justify the cost of buying and maintaining one in my home.

Granted, this is for currency, not proficiency.

For proficiency... I guess you can use whatever you think will keep you proficient.... X-Plane, MSFS, P3D....

 

[SoonerAviator]

I wonder about the cost. Would really like a simulator with a GTN 650 / G3X combo to upkeep my IFR currency.

Outfits like RealSimGear make a GTN650 for about $500, dunno about the G3X. Honeycomb Aeronautic sells the Alpha flight yoke and Bravo throttle quadrant for about $300/ea. Rudder pedals like the MFG Crosswind are another $300. So the peripherals alone are going to run close to $2K before you even add the screens and computer/software.

All of that to say that it would help your proficiency, but have no affect on IFR currency because it still wouldn't be a "certified" package.

 

[tsts4]

For me, buying a BATD (or any FAA certified simulator) is not worth the cost compared to the benefit. There is a place with a BATD right by the gate to my hangar where I can (in a pinch) get 6 approaches and a hold for less than $200. I prefer to go with a safety pilot if I need to get approaches for currency. But I have, in a pinch, used the BATD.

Buying a BATD doesn't justify the cost of buying and maintaining one in my home.

Granted, this is for currency, not proficiency.

For proficiency... I guess you can use whatever you think will keep you proficient.... X-Plane, MSFS, P3D....

I wrestled with this but I was having a bear of time maintaining currency due to a combination of lack of safety pilot availability and my own schedule. So in the end biting the bullet and buying a BATD made sense and solved the problem. The side benefit is because the sim is here at the house my proficiency has also increased because I can shoot an approach anytime I feel like it and have 15 minutes to spare. That same approach (assuming it’s local to begin with) in my plane would take 2.5 hrs when you factor in the drive to and from the airport, prepping the plane, transit to the approach, the approach itself, and putting the plane away. From a cost perspective, there’s no comparison. Although the Redbird is initially expensive, it’s running cost is practically 0. As a result, it’s already paid for itself. YMMV….

 

[Jim Rosenow]

Yeah, the TD2 is basically a Cessna with a pseudo NAV III system (there is also a round dial option).

That's another downside to some of these - pseudo avionics. They look and feel like the real thing but they are not duplicates in functionality. We have a TD2 in our club. When I do a checkout in one I always show one of the basic limitations.

That's not a knock. They are great for some tasks, but it's good to know their limits.

-----

Just an addendum to the 'pseudo' avionics discussion. Agree completely with the above, however, an exception...

Reality-xp makes a set of add-ons for some of the popular sim software that seems dead-nuts on keystroke-wise. In fact, it uses the Garmin Trainer app running in the background to ensure this. Includes Garmin 750/650 530/430. We run them on an X-plane set-up. Using Duet software we use an ipad as an additional Win10 screen, and voila, instant touchscreen GTNs. We have transitioned 3 or 4 pilots into their new-to-them avionics that way down the basement, prior to their a/c. The RXP software is the only reason we have a Windows computer around...all else is Linux, including the 2nd and 3rd sim computers. As always, YMMV.

Now if he'd just do the Honeywell FMS...

Jim

 

[WDD]

Lots of great posts already. My experience:

ANyone with much experience with home simulators? I am considering one, would love to maintain IFR proficiency, not sure I want the expense. Any product suggestions?

• I bought X Plane 11, a Logitech Flight Yoke with throttle quadrants, and Reality XP add on for the GTN 650. I use an app to run the RealityXP add on on an old touch screen tablet. Cost? Somewhere around $300. (I also had to buy and add a graphics card and a new power source for the PC - maybe $300 more?)

Also, it is tough to tell how configurable they are, can I set up plane profiles to be just like or similar to what I fly with regards to avionics and capabilities?

• X Plane is configurable - I have it configured for a Skyhawk flying from my home airport

Will this help maintain proficiency? Yes and No.

• "Yes", in that you can practice working the GTN (or GNS, whatever you pick), going through the check lists, intercepting the approach, flying holds, etc. For me, that helps.
• "No" in that you can't log the hours, doesn't count for your 6 / 6 .

 

[Randomskylane]

I installed X-Plane and the learning curve is significant. OTOH I can pre-fly unknown locations and get in IFR practice. Pilot workshop iirc has X-Plane training which helped me enormously.

its worth it once set up but getting there is a huge time consuming pita

ymmv

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Interesting idea. A certified simulator is defined by a QAG. A kind of open source QAG could allow you to purchase specific components and put them together into an approved configuration. I’m sure there are a few extra steps in there, but the basic idea might be sound.

That would be a really sweet concept. I'm attempting to do something approaching that with the simulator I'm building, as far as being configurable for different avionics/panel setups, but I don't know that I would call it open source. My hope is to be able to get a few different major panel configurations approved concentrating on mostly round dial with a few different options for thinks like G5s or different stack combos. Most of the ones I've seen on the market focus on G1000. The other thing too is that the BATD definition is fairly lenient and should cover most of the configurations, so hopefully I can get away with only one or two sim versions.

 

[tsts4]

For those that are interested, AC 61-136B governs AATD/BATD certification https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentid/1034348

 

[midwestpa24]

I wrestled with this but I was having a bear of time maintaining currency due to a combination of lack of safety pilot availability and my own schedule. So in the end biting the bullet and buying a BATD made sense and solved the problem. The side benefit is because the sim is here at the house my proficiency has also increased because I can shoot an approach anytime I feel like it and have 15 minutes to spare. That same approach (assuming it’s local to begin with) in my plane would take 2.5 hrs when you factor in the drive to and from the airport, prepping the plane, transit to the approach, the approach itself, and putting the plane away. From a cost perspective, there’s no comparison. Although the Redbird is initially expensive, it’s running cost is practically 0. As a result, it’s already paid for itself. YMMV….

While there are advantages to sim training, I still don't see it as a 1-for-1 with doing it in the real aircraft. Its a different game when the cockpit is shaking, you are sweating, etc. Also, how many of us have a sim that is 100% identical to our aircraft. Muscle memory is a thing, and very important part of proficiency.

 

[tsts4]

While there are advantages to sim training, I still don't see it as a 1-for-1 with doing it in the real aircraft. Its a different game when the cockpit is shaking, you are sweating, etc. Also, how many of us have a sim that is 100% identical to our aircraft. Muscle memory is a thing, and very important part of proficiency.

i don’t disagree, but sometimes you have to play the hand you’re dealt. For me it was a no brainer in that I got my IR behind a G1000 and it’s close enough from a capability and buttonology standpoint to my own panel (dual-screen G3X with a GTN 650) that it works nicely. That’s not to say that I don’t occasionally train in my plane, I do, but the BATD does most of the heavy currency and proficiency lifting for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

 

[Jim Rosenow]

Part of the issue, as I see it, with a certified BATD is that you'll be locked into a configuration. When we trained our bud on the 530/430 that came in his Bo, we used Carenado's Bo, with REP, and RXPs units, so he was comfortable with most of the environment. We use Carenado's T210 as a simile for our R182, by limiting MP. The panel is almost identical to ours after we add the GTN650 our 182 has. I am technically savvy enough (retired from doing LE computer forensics) that I could probably get thru the certification process. I just don't see the advantage.

Sorry for the sim geekness...
Jim

PS....and with non-certified, you can build as your budget and skills grow....which CAN get out of hand.

 

[WDD]

I installed X-Plane and the learning curve is significant. OTOH I can pre-fly unknown locations and get in IFR practice. Pilot workshop iirc has X-Plane training which helped me enormously.

its worth it once set up but getting there is a huge time consuming pita

ymmv

Interesting POV. I remember just installing it, finding my plane and airport, and saving it. Each time I use it I just open that flight.

What specifically seemed to be difficult in starting to use it? The Yoke control buttons? Setting visibility / turbulence / wind?

 

[Albany Tom]

For those that are interested, AC 61-136B governs AATD/BATD certification https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentid/1034348

That's pretty cool. Those docs aren't that bad...in fact they actually seem pretty reasonable. I bet it isn't much of a stretch for a software-only simulator to be approved as a basic training device, if the software could determine that the refresh rate were OK, and if the system documentation specified that the solution was only certified with models X, Y, and Z of controls and switched. Not only that, I don't see why it could be mode based, so that all the controls would be locked down when in BATD mode, but outside that mode it could be used a more generic simulator.

Now, a large part of the above is based on the FAA approving the device as kind of a DIY kit, but that doesn't seem unreasonable. If the system is built around specific parts for the controls, just the display/computer would be different, and those are both pretty generic and easy to test and specify.

 

[woodchucker]

I have xplane and msfs along with the honeycomb alpha/bravo stuff. The iPad is easily configured to replicate the flight in ForeFlight (not sure how other apps handle that) and Air Manager (paid software) allows you to configure a panel as you like ... to an extent. For IFR simulation it can get pretty dang close to what you need as far as managing navigation. Also have a Real Sim Gear 430. None of this is for currency, just practice at home. As said above, if you want actual currency you need Redbird or some other certified option.

 

[bflynn]

…I bet it isn't much of a stretch for a software-only simulator to be approved as a basic training device, if the software could determine that the refresh rate were OK, and if the system documentation specified that the solution was only certified with models X, Y, and Z of controls and switched. …

Now, a large part of the above is based on the FAA approving the device as kind of a DIY kit, but that doesn't seem unreasonable. If the system is built around specific parts for the controls, just the display/computer would be different, and those are both pretty generic and easy to test and specify.

To use x-plane as an approved sim, there is a special version to buy. It’s functionally the same, but includes some extra features to meet the FAA’s requirements around startup and frame rate.

The most difficult part of getting a sim approved is getting the QAG approved because it usually involves back and forth with the FAA. But once approved, I think you can rubber stamp the components and install as many of them as you like.

 

[coma24]

ANyone with much experience with home simulators? I am considering one, would love to maintain IFR proficiency, not sure I want the expense. Also, it is tough to tell how configurable they are, can I set up plane profiles to be just like or similar to what I fly with regards to avionics and capabilities? Any product suggestions?

Been simming for 39 years. One thing is clear, you don't necessarily get what you pay for when it comes to fidelity. FAA Certification means almost nothing in terms of quality or fidelity.

The cost difference between an BATD and a reasonably-configured home sim is around $6000 (using a $2000 desktop setup vs $8000 BATD). Everyone's situation is different, but in my case, it would take DECADES for me to break even on the purchase. There's also a ton of things I do on my home sim that I couldn't do on a typical BATD. Case in point, I've been studying a Challenger 650 fairly intensely for the past few months as part of a possible commercial venture in the future. The flexibility of the home sim allows me to do that. I realize that is not a requirement for everyone, but I thought I'd mention it as a bonus feature.

Having flown many certified sims and having tried many configurations at home in terms of hardware, I've basically settled on a high quality joystick ($70), my 17yr old rudder pedals and a midi controller from Behringer which effectively has 18 knobs and 48 buttons in addition to the 16 buttons on the joystick and the 8 way hat.

I don't use the sim to replicate my real airplane, it's often a fool's errand. I fly a completely different airplane in the sim with similar or higher performance and similar or more complex systems.

There is 0% chance I would be as proficient as I am without the sim at home. It is incredibly convenient and flexible.

If you want a turn key solution and you feel strongly that you need to log the time at home to maintain legal proficiency, then a BATD/AATD/FTD/FFS is your only choice. If you decide you are happy staying sharp and don't care about logging towards legal proficiency, then don't get a certified device.

 

[Palmpilot]

I second the motion for a high quality joystick. I have found that the ones with hall-effect sensors don't have the dead zone in the center like conventional joysticks do. The one I use is made by Thrustmaster.

 

[ktup-flyer]

I just built a pc for simming/IFR practice. Can’t log it, obviously, but about $3500 all in, and it runs MSFS on max settings. Still using my old Logitech FS gear, but that might get upgraded to a Yoko in the future

 

[WDD]

Here is my value pc with a new graphics card running X Plane 11, I pad running FFlight, old tablet running reality XP GTN 650, and the Logitech yoke.