Simulator Included Into Training

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A. Burns

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Burns
I'm about to finish my private pilot's license and I'm trying to decide between two schools.
One school requires 10 hours of sim time (redbird simulator) to be included into the flight syllabus. 2.5 hours can be logged as air time. They also said that the sim time will reduce the necessary air time from around 55 hours to 50 hours. That would save about 700 buck theoretically. (115/hr for sim and instructor, 180/hour for air time and instructor. Rate is for wet aircraft) They also want you to buy their $400 ground school.
The other flight school is straight air time at $175 an hour and recommends the online ground school from Sporty's at $395 with books and flight computer.
What is the general recommendation? Is the sim really worth it? Does it really graduate pilots sooner (40 hour min understood)? Or should I focus that money solely toward stick and rudder time?
Sorry for the long post and thanks for all the advise. Its a big investment.
 
For IFR sims are a HUGE benifit.
 
James331 said:
For IFR sims are a HUGE benifit.
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I think a sim is ideal for starting IFR training, but I'm only into my second hour of PPL. That's why I'm wondering if the sim money would be better spent on stick and rudder time. 10 sim hours at this one school translates to 6 hours of air time at the other school monetarily speaking. Their argument is I can do 10-12 landings in an hour in the sim and only 2-3 if I'm in the air. Their policy is "Train in the sim, and Check in the Air".
 
It all depends on how effectively the instructor uses the simulator time. It could be anywhere from a waste of time to very productive.
 
IFR isn't really as much a stick and rudder thing

Sim for VFR stuff like a PPL, I wouldn't really bother.

But IFR where it's all procedure and being able to pause, analyze, or just drag and drop the plane back onto the IAF or FAF or whatever, that's huge.
 
So is the general thought that the money is more well spent in the air instead of the sim?
 
Larry in TN said:
It all depends on how effectively the instructor uses the simulator time. It could be anywhere from a waste of time to very productive.
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Gotta disagree, It's doesn't depend, if your CFII can't figure out how to make good use of a sim for IFR work, you need to find a better CFII


A. Burns said:
So is the general thought that the money is more well spent in the air instead of the sim?
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Other way around, heck look at how the professional do their training/recurrent and test for IFR, it's mostly all sim work, plus how you can train for failures, ideally the plane is just to prove and validate what you did in the sim.
 
But this sim work would not be for IFR. It's just to finish up my private pilot's license. That's why I'm curious if it's worth the money or if I would be better of spending it for air time.
 
Ahh, in that case it's just having a good feel for the real plane, I wouldn't really count the sim for much, if it's free that's cool, but I've never made much use of them for PPLs.
 
A. Burns said:
But this sim work would not be for IFR. It's just to finish up my private pilot's license. That's why I'm curious if it's worth the money or if I would be better of spending it for air time.
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While it wouldn't be wasted, nothing is in training really, I think you'd be better off actually flying the plane while working on your PPC. IMO.
 
A. Burns said:
So is the general thought that the money is more well spent in the air instead of the sim?
Click to expand...

A sim does not fly like an airplane (not a GA sim, anyway) and that demands that you learn to scan and interpret instrument indications....you can't rely on your butt for clues. The lessons learned in the sim transfer seamlessly into the airplane. Think about it...the airlines can train a pilot in a sim to type-rating standards and put that pilot on a revenue flight without any airplane time.

This applies only to the instrument rating, however...I see no value in sim time for the private certificate.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
A sim does not fly like an airplane (not a GA sim, anyway) and that demands that you learn to scan and interpret instrument indications....you can't rely on your butt for clues. The lessons learned in the sim transfer seamlessly into the airplane. Think about it...the airlines can train a pilot in a sim to type-rating standards and put that pilot on a revenue flight without any airplane time.

This applies only to the instrument rating, however...I see no value in sim time for the private certificate.

Bob Gardner
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And even the level D sims aren't great for stick and rudder stuff, steep turns in the sim vs the real plane, different enough to be quite noticeable.
 
A couple things IMO.

Pluses:
Yeah it might reduce some of the air time “needed” to be checkride ready.
As noted, a good CFI can use the sim more effectively than in the air. I.e. emergency procedures, system failures, situational awareness, pause and analyze.
You can “fly” when the weather is bad so helps with rhythm.

Minuses:
The air time needed to be proficient is more than for the checkride. So you still need the airtime, you’ll just get it post PPL.
Most sims are just enough different from actual aircraft so as to generate confusion. You don’t want to be trying to learn a glass cockpit or a G530 if you’re flying steam in the real thing. If yours is a dead match that’s less of a concern.
Sims are pretty useless in learning to land and not that great at simulating the effects of turbulence.
 
I do not understand the school's requirement to play a video game for VFR training. For PPL, you need to feel the airplane and learn to tell what it is doing. The sim won't give you that option.
As others have said, I agree that a sim is good for IR training but not really for PPL. (there are exceptions, though, special use cases but those are outside the general pool)

Again, no idea why the school is pushing their own ground school and 10 hours of sim. Maybe they bought too much c*ap and are now trying to force students to pay for it? :)

OTOH, if the whole winter is crappy and you can't fly VFR for 3 months, 10 hours in the sim might at least hold you over. ;)
 
I'm not a CFI, just a PPL, but I would agree with the others. Sim time would be good when working on IFR but to finish up your PPL, I would think actual time would be much better. If you're having trouble with instruments, find someone with a version of Microsoft flight simulator and pay your CFI for some ground instruction. You can't log the time but it's cheaper than paying for a plane.
 
Thank you all for the advice. By the comment "I'm about to finish my PPL, I meant "I'm about to enroll into a school in order to complete the balance of my required training". I guess that's my southern accent coming through my keyboard. I have two hours completed and I'm now looking for a school in which to finish the rest. This is the type of simulator this particular school uses for PPL training. Just so everyone is aware that they aren't having students sit at a desktop with a joystick. Still not sure it's worth the mandatory 10 hours.
https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/mcx
 
A. Burns said:
Thank you all for the advice. By the comment "I'm about to finish my PPL, I meant "I'm about to enroll into a school in order to complete the balance of my required training". I guess that's my southern accent coming through my keyboard. I have two hours completed and I'm now looking for a school in which to finish the rest. This is the type of simulator this particular school uses for PPL training. Just so everyone is aware that they aren't having students sit at a desktop with a joystick. Still not sure it's worth the mandatory 10 hours.
https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/mcx
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Look, many of us are experienced CFIs and have given you the advice not to do their sim training. They have invested in it and are trying to get utilization out of it. As we've all said, fine for the instrument rating, not for the PPC. You're only required to have 3 hours of very basic instrument training for the PPC per the CFARs. You certainly don't need 10 hours of it on a sim! If the school insists upon it, I'd suggest finding an independent CFI or another school.
 
Thank you all. I appreciate the advice. Wasn't trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to make the best decision for my flight training.
 
A. Burns said:
Thank you all. I appreciate the advice. Wasn't trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to make the best decision for my flight training.
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Wasn't saying that, sorry if it came across that way. Just think they're trying to take advantage of you when you don't need that sim for a PPC.
 
What airports are you based near? Maybe that would be helpful info as well. Also, all the books are available free on FAA.gov.
 
James331 said:
Sim for VFR stuff like a PPL, I wouldn't really bother.

But IFR where it's all procedure and being able to pause, analyze, or just drag and drop the plane back onto the IAF or FAF or whatever, that's huge.
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:yeahthat:
When you get to IFR it will save you a lot of frustration (and $$) to be int he sim. For PPL stuff there's not much value in it (if any to be honest)

A. Burns said:
So is the general thought that the money is more well spent in the air instead of the sim?
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Yes. Sim for PPL stuff is a complete waste in my book. Sure, it's cheaper than air time, but there's very little value in it so in the grand scheme of things I think $100 is better spent on being in the air, even if it is just .7 hobbs, as opposed to 2 sim hours

A. Burns said:
Lastly, this is the PPC kit I'm looking at buying. Looks to be more than sufficient. Thoughts?
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That's crazy overpriced. Remember, pilots are all rich :rolleyes: so a lot of shops and flight schools drive the prices way up and take advantage of "deluxe pilot kit" type nonsense. I think I spent maybe $100 tops for PPL stuff? and even for IFR stuff outside of the course itself I doubt I spent over $50. I made a lot of my own checklists based off the POH (which was a good learning exercise in itself) I got the cheapest kneeboard I could find and use a standard small note pad, etc. Same with the calculator, my calculator in PPL and including IFR stuff was a $5 Shell gas station special... I mean, as long as it can add, subtract, multiply, and divide, you are fine. And frankly, I've never once in my life been in the cockpit and thought to use my calculator. None of the math is that hard really.. "okay, 8 gph, I have 200 miles to go, I have 150 speed over ground, so that means I'll get there in in about 1.5 hrs, and at 8pm I need at least 12 more gallons to get there" <- I always over estimate a bit on and "fudge upwards" to get a healthy conservative buffer. EDIT: in the IFR world for "feet per nm" a calculator can become very useful... but even that math is not impossible to do in your head.. and after a while you just memorize the typical gradients in your area for your plane "okay, I need 800 ft at X"


*****As a side note, the only time in my life I've ever gotten motion sick was in a Redbird sim. It's mild wiggling was just enough to make it feel odd and unnatural (rather than add any semblance of reality to it). Mind you, I don't get car sick, seasick, air sick, roller coasters, etc... just the Redbird! So I'm generally biased against sims lol
 
Tantalum said:
:yeahthat:
When you get to IFR it will save you a lot of frustration (and $$) to be int he sim. For PPL stuff there's not much value in it (if any to be honest)


Yes. Sim for PPL stuff is a complete waste in my book. Sure, it's cheaper than air time, but there's very little value in it so in the grand scheme of things I think $100 is better spent on being in the air, even if it is just .7 hobbs, as opposed to 2 sim hours


That's crazy overpriced. Remember, pilots are all rich :rolleyes: so a lot of shops and flight schools drive the prices way up and take advantage of "deluxe pilot kit" type nonsense. I think I spent maybe $100 tops for PPL stuff? and even for IFR stuff outside of the course itself I doubt I spent over $50. I made a lot of my own checklists based off the POH (which was a good learning exercise in itself) I got the cheapest kneeboard I could find and use a standard small note pad, etc. Same with the calculator, my calculator in PPL and including IFR stuff was a $5 Shell gas station special... I mean, as long as it can add, subtract, multiply, and divide, you are fine. And frankly, I've never once in my life been in the cockpit and thought to use my calculator. None of the math is that hard really.. "okay, 8 gph, I have 200 miles to go, I have 150 speed over ground, so that means I'll get there in in about 1.5 hrs, and at 8pm I need at least 12 more gallons to get there" <- I always over estimate a bit on and "fudge upwards" to get a healthy conservative buffer. EDIT: in the IFR world for "feet per nm" a calculator can become very useful... but even that math is not impossible to do in your head.. and after a while you just memorize the typical gradients in your area for your plane "okay, I need 800 ft at X"


*****As a side note, the only time in my life I've ever gotten motion sick was in a Redbird sim. It's mild wiggling was just enough to make it feel odd and unnatural (rather than add any semblance of reality to it). Mind you, I don't get car sick, seasick, air sick, roller coasters, etc... just the Redbird! So I'm generally biased against sims lol
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What about grind school costs ?
 
A. Burns said:
Crap. Ground school. I was advised to buy a kit with the online ground school.
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It’s not required, but you can as a supplement.

The one I linked to in my post above would suit you just fine.
 
I bought the Gleim kit. Seems to be the most reasonable.
 
A. Burns said:
What about ground school costs ?
Click to expand...
I used Kings for my stuff. For PPL I didn't take an official ground school, just read the books and did some ground lessons with my CFI. For IR I used Kings. The Gleim is supposed to be good too.. you should do fine if you're passionate about it, and it seems like you are. Cheers and good luck!
 
A. Burns said:
I bought the Gleim kit. Seems to be the most reasonable.
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Flight school where I instruct sells Gleim. I have a few of the books and they're pretty good. Here's some links for free FAA training books. A lot of it is repeated in the Gleim books too.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...e_handbook/media/airplane_flying_handbook.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...viation/media/risk_management_hb_change_1.pdf
 
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So spend 10 hrs x $115 and count 2.5 hrs toward air time. That means 7.5 hrs x $115 saves you (in theory) 5 hr x $180 - by reducing training from 55 to 50 hrs. Umm. The math.

You're not learning to fly in order to fly a Redbird Sim. Get out and fly. Even if you blow past 55 hours to get your ppl, which is probably happening, you're still flying instead of simming.

And yes, I agree with everyone else, the Sim is good for instrument but initial ppl?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
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