Signature West at KVNY Sucks!

Llk said:
And if the only transient place to park is an FBO that prefers jet business, that FBO should not be allowed at an airport.
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Businesses that prefer customers that are more profitable for them should not be allowed at an airport? Ok. Good luck with that.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Businesses that prefer customers that are more profitable for them should not be allowed at an airport? Ok. Good luck with that.
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This is where the defenders of FBO rip offs get derpy. Airports are nearly all publicly owned and FBOs should not be taking advantage of that public infrastructure to rip people off.
 
Larry in TN said:
With an unplanned stop like this with multiple FBOs, don't be afraid to ask ground for a place to hold for a minute while you call the FBOs on UNICOM to see which is the best deal/services for you.
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Helpful advice. Thank you.
 
I mean, you can always have a chat with LAWA about it, if Signature goes crazy. My guess is a nice conversation with their management will solve things.
 
N1120A said:
This is where the defenders of FBO rip offs get derpy. Airports are nearly all publicly owned and FBOs should not be taking advantage of that public infrastructure to rip people off.
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Is your hangar on a public airport?
Should I be able to move into your hanger while you are away?

What would you say to management?

Pilot “I went into your ramp and I don’t want to pay your publicly posted ramp fee”

Signature “why”

Pilot:

1723581-14521016624522035-Hoya-Capital-Real-Estate.png



Come on man! ;)

Not sure about VNY, but if you really want to stick it to the FBO man try asking ground if you can taxi to a non movement area, shut down and sit in your plane until the storm passes.
 
SneakyGrouse said:
Is your hangar on a public airport?
Should I be able to move into your hanger while you are away?

What would you say to management?

Pilot “I went into your ramp and I don’t want to pay your publicly posted ramp fee”

Signature “why”

Pilot:

1723581-14521016624522035-Hoya-Capital-Real-Estate.png



Come on man! ;)

Not sure about VNY, but if you really want to stick it to the FBO man try asking ground if you can taxi to a non movement area, shut down and sit in your plane until the storm passes.
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It was 60 minutes at the edge of their ramp. Were they legally entitled to the fee? Maybe. Would it have been a nice courtesy to a pilot waiting out weather for an hour? Absolutely. I'm not arguing the legalities, here. I'm simply saying that they should have been more courteous. The person making the decision could have told the line guy, "tell that effing piston-pounder he has one hour, and then either has to leave or pay the ramp fee." And while I would have probably grumbled to myself, I would have accepted that as fair. But, as others above have pointed out, their interest is biz jets, and no doubt wanted to chase me off so my little Cessna didn't make their ramp look bad, or something.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
It was 60 minutes at the edge of their ramp. Were they legally entitled to the fee? Maybe. Would it have been a nice courtesy to a pilot waiting out weather for an hour? Absolutely. I'm not arguing the legalities, here. I'm simply saying that they should have been more courteous. The person making the decision could have told the line guy, "tell that effing piston-pounder he has one hour, and then either has to leave or pay the ramp fee." And while I would have probably grumbled to myself, I would have accepted that as fair. But, as others above have pointed out, their interest is biz jets, and no doubt wanted to chase me off so my little Cessna didn't make their ramp look bad, or something.
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You used their ramp space, they charged you a ramp fee, where is the surprise lol

When I fly for fun, especially going to ramps I go to for work, I often get away without a ramp fee, however I expect it anytime I touch the ramp they pay rent on, where they run their business with payroll, insurance, marketing, etc.

If they say, “no worries Bob, have a good one” that’s cool, but it’s not expected and I would never think to complain about a for profit FBO charging a ramp fee when I went on their ramp
 
SneakyGrouse said:
You used their ramp space, they charged you a ramp fee, where is the surprise lol
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Please show me where I discussed being "surprised" by the fee. I'm not surprised by them asking for a fee. I simply think they should have been courteous for an hour. Apparently their business model doesn't take that into account.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Please show me where I discussed being "surprised" by the fee. I'm not surprised by them asking for a fee. I simply think they should have been courteous for an hour. Apparently their business model doesn't take that into account.
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Maybe I don’t understand this topic

You said their company sucks

Your beef with them is that they charged you a ramp fee.

You went on their ramp

I’m confused

Their business model is to charge people who use their ramp (as well as other things), you used the ramp. You’re complaint is they didn’t provide their service for free?
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
It was 60 minutes at the edge of their ramp. Were they legally entitled to the fee? Maybe. Would it have been a nice courtesy to a pilot waiting out weather for an hour? Absolutely. I'm not arguing the legalities, here. I'm simply saying that they should have been more courteous. The person making the decision could have told the line guy, "tell that effing piston-pounder he has one hour, and then either has to leave or pay the ramp fee." And while I would have probably grumbled to myself, I would have accepted that as fair. But, as others above have pointed out, their interest is biz jets, and no doubt wanted to chase me off so my little Cessna didn't make their ramp look bad, or something.
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Did you ask anyone who actually had the authority to waive the fee?
 
SneakyGrouse said:
Their business model is to charge people who use their ramp (as well as other things), you used the ramp. You’re complaint is they didn’t provide their service for free?
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My complaint is that they could have (and IMHO, should have) shown a little courtesy for someone who was there for an hour due to a weather issue. I wasn't going to set foot into the FBO. No cookies. No bottles of water. No toilet flushes. I simply wanted to sit on their ramp for an hour, in the plane, to wait for the weather to improve.

I'm not debating whether they could have charged the fee (or tried to charge the fee). My beef is that a little courtesy goes a long way in this world, and Signature seems to have forgotten that. Maybe not in GA, now that I think about it...
 
- https://www.signatureflight.com/locations/VNY/east
Under Fuel and Service Rates
- https://www.aopa.org/destinations/business/13179
Under Fee Details & select Aircraft type.
-Both indicate:
$5 Piston Infrastructure Fee
$39 Single Engine Piston Handling
Handling fee waived with minimum fuel purchase; .50 weekend discount.

Line personnel may be relaying message, but typically without scope to negotiate.
Perhaps worth explaining circumstances (inside the fbo) to CSR or FBO manager (wx divert, unfamiliar field, ground directed transient aircraft for a one-hour shutdown) ... could they consider a break without fuel purchase, this time? Maybe they would be okay with $5 Infrastructure fee and waive their Handling fee (even without fuel purchase), in view of circumstances.
If not ...
Otherwise, buy min fuel to waive handling, or offer to move aircraft immediately off their ramp to wait elsewhere, with no fee.

[Reasonable compromise]
AOPA has been campaigning against FBOs gouging g.a. aircraft (for excessive/unreasonable fees) where there are no free-parking transient ramps (or reasonable cost) at PUBLIC-USE (public funded) airports.
On the other hand, FBOs need revenue (corresponding to their location-specific costs) to remain in business.
Hopefully ... there’s a reasonable compromise.
 
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SoCal 182 Driver said:
My complaint is that they could have (and IMHO, should have) shown a little courtesy for someone who was there for an hour due to a weather issue. I wasn't going to set foot into the FBO. No cookies. No bottles of water. No toilet flushes. I simply wanted to sit on their ramp for an hour, in the plane, to wait for the weather to improve.

I'm not debating whether they could have charged the fee (or tried to charge the fee). My beef is that a little courtesy goes a long way in this world, and Signature seems to have forgotten that. Maybe not in GA, now that I think about it...
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The fact that you expected free service, maybe that was part of the problem.

I get free ramp service on more than a few occasions, even places where I know others are charged, maybe it’s some karma thing where the aviation gods know I expect to pay and smile upon me, maybe it’s the same energy that that gets people who think for [insert excuse here] that they are entitled to free service, charged.

If you don’t want to pay those types of ramp fees, maybe fly in a more economical area.

And to say their business sucks because they wouldn’t hook you up, dude that’s, well I hope you were just making a joke.
 
SneakyGrouse said:
The fact that you expected free service, maybe that was part of the problem.
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I think the disconnect is characterizing the ramp area is a "service". Yes they pay to pave (maybe) and maintain it, and that's a nice "service" if nothing else is made available, but OP already mentioned he didn't want restrooms, cookies, crew cars or busty nitwits to flirt with, so the only "line service" provided by Signature was the lineman who acted as bill collector, and their existence.

This is worse since we can't just leave the plane hanging in the sky, so we're forced to go *somewhere* -- unless VNY Ground could suggest a taxiway to sit for an hour. Maybe they could have :D

I think the disconnect is made worse because, if I park my car somewhere with no signage, just to chill for an hour, I expect to do so freely because streets are paid for by municipalities and they generously include spots to park as part of the plan.

If I pulled over from a road and some dude came to ask me for $10, and I did NOT pass something looking like this:

dsc-0507jpg-63533212b2ec4f80.jpg



... then I would probably be ticked off just like OP, and probably drive away too.

What's funny is -- the "guy asking for cash to let you park here" is pretty common in Africa. Of course, the implied threat is that they're asking for a tip to prevent vandalism to your car while it's unattended. No mention is made about whether this vandalism would be committed by this same watchman with hand extended should he get stiffed.

So maybe signature needs to offer a separate free ramp, and have goons go trash planes parked there every so often if a lineman is not tipped.
 
schmookeeg said:
I think the disconnect is characterizing the ramp area is a "service". Yes they pay to pave (maybe) and maintain it, and that's a nice "service" if nothing else is made available, but OP already mentioned he didn't want restrooms, cookies, crew cars or busty nitwits to flirt with, so the only "line service" provided by Signature was the lineman who acted as bill collector, and their existence.

This is worse since we can't just leave the plane hanging in the sky, so we're forced to go *somewhere* -- unless VNY Ground could suggest a taxiway to sit for an hour. Maybe they could have :D

I think the disconnect is made worse because, if I park my car somewhere with no signage, just to chill for an hour, I expect to do so freely because streets are paid for by municipalities and they generously include spots to park as part of the plan.

If I pulled over from a road and some dude came to ask me for $10, and I did NOT pass something looking like this:

dsc-0507jpg-63533212b2ec4f80.jpg



... then I would probably be ticked off just like OP, and probably drive away too.

What's funny is -- the "guy asking for cash to let you park here" is pretty common in Africa. Of course, the implied threat is that they're asking for a tip to prevent vandalism to your car while it's unattended. No mention is made about whether this vandalism would be committed by this same watchman with hand extended should he get stiffed.

So maybe signature needs to offer a separate free ramp, and have goons go trash planes parked there every so often if a lineman is not tipped.
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So I can just pop your hangar open and squat there? I mean it won’t be for that long ;)

Signature is a private company, they owe you and me NOTHING, their business their rules.

Here’s where I do somewhat agree, I believe there should be a open PUBLIC (free to tax payers) transient ramp with gate access requirement if you take tax payer money for your airport, I also believe landing fees should go away unless it’s a 100% private funded airport.
 
Hmmm... the number of people on this thread expecting you to expect to pay up kind of surprises me.

Now, I could be wrong here and I’m sure I’m about to be corrected, but my understanding has always been that airports are public places funded by federal (public) monies - i.e. your tax dollars - and FBOs are granted the use of those public airports and given these quasi-monopolies under the understanding they won’t abuse the privilege.

Personally, I alway try to start from the position of just being a public user of a public resource. In one instance that is similar (forced ramp fee for no services whatsoever), I pointed out it was a public airport and that AOPA had been seeking feedback on public airport FBOs that were abusing their privileges, and that I thought the practices in question would interest them. I made that comment to a line person and agreed to pay their fees and left.

20 minutes later, I got a call from the general manager of the FBO, who was bending over backwards to keep me happy - waived ramp fees, discounted fuel, whatever it takes (subtext: to keep you from notifying AOPA).

I’m not saying it works every time, and I’m not saying I’m necessarily even right that all airports are public in the way I am describing, but don’t just give up and roll over, and for everyone else, put up a fight - we don’t want to just give it all away to landing fees and ramp fees en mass without a fight!

...I reported that FBO as soon as I got home lol.
 
AA5Bman said:
Hmmm... the number of people on this thread expecting you to expect to pay up kind of surprises me.
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the number of people who assume a business will do something other than what they normally do (which is quite well known, apparently even to the OP) because of their psychic abilities kind of surprises me.
 
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N1120A said:
I bet if the OP spoke to Signature corporate or the local management about the situation, they'd give them a break.
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Hah! This is $ignature we're talking about. I'm based at one for work. I keep my personal airplane elsewhere. Needed to go into $ignature with my airplane for company business once. They charged the full fee despite us being one of their best based customers.

Of course, they could have also bought 7 gallons of gas.
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IME, $ignature's fuel prices are engineered such that buying the 7 gallons at their exorbitant rates is just about the same as paying the fee.

2) That Castle and Cooke is a better option (it definitely isn't at $8.30 a gallon vs. $5.54/5.04)
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But it sounds like they have no ramp fee. Thus, they're a better option if you aren't buying fuel (and a worse option if you are).

4) That Signature doesn't make it easy to have fees waived (they do, generally and especially when they have any competition).
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I've never gotten $ignature to waive any fee, ever, as far as I can recall. And it's not my off-putting personality ;p, as I've successfully gotten many fees waived at other FBOs, even Atlantic which tends to generally be every bit as bad as $ignature fee-wise.

N1120A said:
This comment may be almost as poorly taken as the OP. There's nothing inherently more expensive about operating GA in Southern California than basically anywhere else.
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Except both dirt and fuel cost a lot more money in California, so it IS more expensive.

ktup-flyer said:
They have good cookies.... that's about it
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They don't even have those any more since Covid. :(
 
Well, yeah, Signature being bad is nothing new, but we shouldn’t just go “oh well, that’s Signature”...
 
I still think there should be a mandate all public airports have the allowance for a designated transient parking area, even if it means unimproved turf. That's where I get defensive wrt this topic. The lack of it [universal public transient area] I mean.
 
SneakyGrouse said:
Lots of airports in “fly over country” where you could land and practically camp for all anyone would care, or even know.
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As a matter of convenience I parked an airplane at a airport in North Dakota for several weeks while I burned time in it... Not only did nobody care (I cleared it with the airport manager before flying in), no mention of fees were ever made, and they had the cheapest fuel in the state. :p
 
SneakyGrouse said:
So I can just pop your hangar open and squat there? I mean it won’t be for that long ;)

Signature is a private company, they owe you and me NOTHING, their business their rules.

Here’s where I do somewhat agree, I believe there should be a open PUBLIC (free to tax payers) transient ramp with gate access requirement if you take tax payer money for your airport, I also believe landing fees should go away unless it’s a 100% private funded airport.
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You remind me of that james331 dude. You're sassy for being here two days ;)

But yeah, if you were in Portland area and needed a hangar, and I wasn't using it for anything, of course you could use it -- why not? As could anyone else. I'd even consider moving MY plane to the adjacent tiedown if you had some need for a hangar, say, like some sort of repair that needed doing.

It appears we agree on the rest, though -- a public-use airport should have public-use parking, just like public-use roads do. If there is great demand for this parking (say, at a busy airport, say, like at van nuys?) then sure, put parking meters there to ensure the fair use of a scarce commodity. I bet OP would have dropped two or four bucks into a meter if that was posted and available to him.

Just touching an otherwise unmarked ramp should not trigger a fee. I don't think anyone objects to fair pay for fair use, they object to the surprise and ambush and lack of transparency that is unique to FBO ramps. If I purchased a parking lot, waited for cars to park there, then assessed them a fee post facto -- watch how quickly I get taken to court and gavel-smacked for my a-holeness. It would elicit a violent response I think.

I've spent some time thinking about this topic, and have owned and operated an FBO. I don't know the simple situation that pleases everyone, although I have a few ideas. The tension between "a business should be able to do business how they like" and "pilots dislike surprises, particularly in the wallet" seems like it could find a ready solution with a little honest talk. I think the more that signatures and such FBOs abuse their position, the quicker we'll discover it and implement it. :)
 
schmookeeg said:
I don't think anyone objects to fair pay for fair use, they object to the surprise and ambush and lack of transparency that is unique to FBO ramps. If I purchased a parking lot, waited for cars to park there, then assessed them a fee post facto -- watch how quickly I get taken to court and gavel-smacked for my a-holeness. It would elicit a violent response I think.
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That Signature rapes piston aircraft with their fees should be no secret to anyone who has spent any time at all as a private pilot. And their fees are on their website and easy to find if you care to look so the lack of transparency argument is weak at best. But the OP wasn't miffed about that. He was miffed because they have a policy and management hasn't given the people working the counter carte blanche to waive policy whenever they see fit. He didn't go in and speak to a manager who might have the authority to waive the fees for him, he just expected it to happen automatically and got butt hurt when it didn't.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I still think there should be a mandate all public airports have the allowance for a designated transient parking area, even if it means unimproved turf. That's where I get defensive wrt this topic. The lack of it [universal public transient area] I mean.
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I agree with this. I feel like there should be a place for public parking at public airports. If I *choose* to park at Signature or any other FBO, I am happy to pay whatever fee they have fairly published in advance. But when there is no other choice - or worse, when an FBO makes it so there is no other choice - then I start to get testy. Especially if there are zero service needed, zero services requested, and zero services given. I mean honestly, if these companies even wiped down the windshield or did something other than just gatekeep the ramp and use their FAA-granted right to extort fees for no services and charge you to park on the public ramp that you have already paid for with your tax dollars, I might feel a little differently.
 
AA5Bman said:
I agree with this. I feel like there should be a place for public parking at public airports. If I *choose* to park at Signature or any other FBO, I am happy to pay whatever fee they have fairly published in advance. But when there is no other choice - or worse, when an FBO makes it so there is no other choice - then I start to get testy. Especially if there are zero service needed, zero services requested, and zero services given. I mean honestly, if these companies even wiped down the windshield or did something other than just gatekeep the ramp and use their FAA-granted right to extort fees for no services and charge you to park on the public ramp that you have already paid for with your tax dollars, I might feel a little differently.
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I "feel" the same way, and generally think the same way, too, with the slight distinction being that the public ramp is probably not fully paid for with tax dollars, but rather subsidized and expected to bring in revenue. Sort of like toll roads...they are built with public funds, but you still have to pay an additional amount if you choose to use them.

Not defending Signature. I had to divert and park at Signature at KSYR for weather for about 30 minutes a few years ago due to a small cell parked right over my little home airport at the time. They were actually very nice and accommodating, and didn't charge me anthing. That's what they should have done for the OP.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
he just expected it to happen automatically and got butt hurt when it didn't
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That's the part I'm struggling with

A restaurant won't let me just sit at a table for a little bit while the table at the restaurant I really want to go to is not available. Sure, there's no sign at the restaurant that says you must spend money, and sure they could extend the courtesy and let you sit there.. but why would they? It's a business.. I can't park for free in one spot while I wait for another spot either in my car

There's some debate to be had over the public infrastructure part.. but there's plenty of public infrastructure we have to pay for.. and Singature's fees are well known. Next time ask for transient parking.. or just hang in the run up area.. I did that once for about 20 minutes and no one had an issue

Yes, they *could* have extended the courtesy and not charged, but why would they? Piston GA is not the target demographic for them so cutting someone slack isn't part of some LTV thing to secure future business

FWIW, I've parked at many FBOs and don't have a beef with signature. I've never felt discriminated against, even if I was pulling up in a rented 1976 Archer. This is different than the OP's use case, but getting to use a beautiful building, WiFi, free water, easy car rental and Uber access, etc., is well worth the fee in my book vs sitting at a tattered transient ramp with a few derelict planes trying to figure out the lock at the gate and having to explain to the Uber guy how to get there
 
Tantalum said:
This is different than the OP's use case, but getting to use a beautiful building, WiFi, free water, easy car rental and Uber access, etc., is well worth the fee in my book vs sitting at a tattered transient ramp with a few derelict planes trying to figure out the lock at the gate and having to explain to the Uber guy how to get there
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If I had gone in and grabbed a bottle of water, sat in the air conditioned lobby, used the bathroom, logged-in to WiFi, etc., etc., I'd agree with you 100%.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
If I had gone in and grabbed a bottle of water, sat in the air conditioned lobby, used the bathroom, logged-in to WiFi, etc., etc., I'd agree with you 100%.
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What about going in and speaking to a manager who would actually have the authority to waive fees for you rather than just expecting a counter person who is trying to do what they're told to just take it upon themselves and just do it for you without even being asked?

The counter person doesn't set policy. And they have a job to protect. And yeah you could argue that their policy should be to not charge if you're not leaving your airplane, but that isn't their policy and probably never has been. And lets not forget, we're not talking about someplace like Philly International where if you land in a GA airplane, you have exactly one choice for which ramp you taxi to. You had other FBO's on the field you could have used.

Granted you might not know what the policies are at the other FBO's but if the airport has a Signature and one or two other FBO's that you've never heard of, its not a stretch to guess which one is most likely to want to charge you. Why would you choose to use the one most likely to charge and then get upset when they did exactly that?
 
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Where's the transient turf/space/apron at VNY?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Well between Signature and Jet Aviation and Park VNY, I think I'd be inclined to place my bet on Park VNY as being the most piston friendly and likely the cheapest.

http://theparkvny.com/
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Exactly. When I left Signature, I taxied over to the Propeller Park. I told the line guy what was going on. He sent me to a transient row and said "have a nice day."
 
Juliet Hotel said:
What about going in and speaking to a manager who would actually have the authority to waive fees for you rather than just expecting a counter person who is trying to do what they're told to just take it upon themselves and just do it for you without even being asked?
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Knowing what their attitude was going in, it just wasn't worth the effort. I left Signature, taxied to the Propeller Park in the northwest corner and waited another 40 minutes or so without an issue.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Just as a reminder, this is also why you should carry an empty 32 oz Gatorade bottle in the plane (and a ziploc bag to keep it in, just to be safe).
;)
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Since my plane's bladder endurance exceeds mine, I always carry a box of Travel Johns. :rolleyes2:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
IME, $ignature's fuel prices are engineered such that buying the 7 gallons at their exorbitant rates is just about the same as paying the fee.




Except both dirt and fuel cost a lot more money in California, so it IS more expensive.
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Is $5.54/$5.04 on weekends truly "exorbitant" for full serve 100LL at a major airport in a highly populated area? How about $5.24/$4.74 in a place like Santa Barbara (where Signature also sells self serve for $4.24)?

Can you honestly say that there is a better full service option at VNY for a light piston driver than Signature is?

100LL does not cost more in California. The 16-18 million person L.A. Metro has at least 5 airports I can name off the top of my head with sub-$4 per gallon 100LL. I can name several in the Bay Area as well.

As for dirt - have you done any research into what you can get a hangar for? Especially if you are willing to get on a city/county waiting list? You'd probably be surprised.

hindsight2020 said:
Where's the transient turf/space/apron at VNY?
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The Park has free transient parking.
 
I wonder what would have transpired had you gone inside. I fly out of Signature West @ VNY quite often. The folks who work there are very nice and accommodating. There's no doubt the corporate rules dictate their fee schedule, but I know there is wiggle room for the CSA's in cases of emergency or short stops like yours. The fee schedule is not accommodating to piston airplane drivers.

I'd venture to guess, they would have asked you to buy 7 gallons of 100LL with the weekend .50 cent discount per gallon, then waiving their ramp fee. That, or something similar, sounds rather reasonable. Just leaving after they asked you to go inside, doesn't sound very nice on the pilot's part.

I would have gone inside and spoke with the folks, used the bathroom, got a couple bottles of cold water, maybe a cookie and/or coffee. Then relaxed in the lounge until it was time for me to depart and pay the $$ for the gas.

If this situation were to come up again, I'd suggest the Prop Park, located in the northwest corner of the field. They have SS, reasonably priced fuel, a couple lounges (one more large one with a restaurant and shop coming soon) and bathrooms. The cost there would be anywhere from $0 to $15 (sans fuel), depending on how long you were parked. As you agreed above, ATC (ground) has no obligation to get you somewhere free. In fact, I am surprised they directed you to Signature at all. I've heard them get folks to the "closest" parking when they're asked (their goal is to get you off the taxiway, where a plane is coming up your back quick-like). There's at least 10 different parking options at VNY and none are "free transient" like you'd find at many airports.
 
SneakyGrouse said:
So I can just pop your hangar open and squat there? I mean it won’t be for that long ;)
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I think you missed the distinction between someone running a public accommodation and someone trespassing on private property.
 
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