Signature West at KVNY Sucks!

SoCal 182 Driver

SoCal 182 Driver

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SoCal 182 Driver
I was on a short VFR hop from KCMA to KWHP when the visibility went bad. I had to divert to KVNY. I asked KVNY ground where I could park for an hour to wait out the weather, and they directed me to Signature West. I found the ramp, and the line guy had me park in an out-of-the-way spot. I told him I would be an hour, and would not even be leaving the plane. He said "no problem, have a nice day," and walked away.

About 10 minutes later he comes back, and tells me they want me to come inside, register, and PAY A LANDING FEE. I reminded him that I was only going to be there for less than an hour. He said it was not his decision. I decided to fire up the plane, called ground and asked for a spot where I could wait for the visibility to improve. Ground vectored me to another area where I could park without charge.

Look, I get that Signature is a business, but at some point good business also includes helping out someone who had to make a short pit-stop to wait-out some weather. Rather than write this nasty review, I could have just as easily written a positive one had they helped! A little courtesy and common sense goes a long way!
 
Never one to defend a Signature, but does VNY have some sort of landing fee that's required to be collected from each FBO? In other words, would you have had this problem no matter where you parked?

It's been a long time since I've been at VNY, as a pilot anyway. :)
 
kayoh190 said:
Never one to defend a Signature, but does VNY have some sort of landing fee that's required to be collected from each FBO? In other words, would you have had this problem no matter where you parked?

It's been a long time since I've been at VNY, as a pilot anyway. :)
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Not that I'm aware of. I specifically asked Ground for a place where I could park without charge, and he said he thought Signature would help me out. He was incorrect.

Signature has long had a lousy reputation. Yesterday I found out it is well-deserved.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
I was relying on Ground because I was not familiar with the airport. Castle and Cooks sounds like where I should have gone.
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would ground even really know about anyone's fees? I mean they may have heard stuff but I would think they're just responsible for getting you someplace, not knowing the details of every FBO and whatnot....
 
Probably not and I'm certainly not claiming I would have known either.

But I think I will bookmark that site on my phone for future use.
 
I’ve always been under the impression that if you taxi onto XYZ’s ramp, than you automatically become obligated to pay for their landing / handling fee if applicable. I do agree that if you were waiting out Wx and staying with the plane for a short time, they should’ve cut you some slack, but that’s Signature for ya!
 
Signature at a nearby airport was sending people bills if they did a touch-and-go at the airport. There were no published fees and the airport did not have a control tower. Fortunately, when the replacement airport opened and the old one closed, Signature disappeared with it. Because of Signature’s fee abuse and other reasons, the old airport made the top 10 in AOPA’s watch list a couple years ago.
 
Could it be the landing fee is a charge that is collected by the city?

Several years ago Albuquerque started charging revenue flights 75 bucks landing fee, collected by the FBO and went straight to the city. The FBO did not receive a cent for collecting the money even though they put up with us cheap thrifty pilots....
 
eman1200 said:
would ground even really know about anyone's fees? I mean they may have heard stuff but I would think they're just responsible for getting you someplace, not knowing the details of every FBO and whatnot....
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I am not faulting Ground for a moment. I just think that Signature should have extended a courtesy for a short stay while awaiting weather to clear.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
I was on a short VFR hop from KCMA to KWHP when the visibility went bad. I had to divert to KVNY. I asked KVNY ground where I could park for an hour to wait out the weather, and they directed me to Signature West. I found the ramp, and the line guy had me park in an out-of-the-way spot. I told him I would be an hour, and would not even be leaving the plane. He said "no problem, have a nice day," and walked away.

About 10 minutes later he comes back, and tells me they want me to come inside, register, and PAY A LANDING FEE. I reminded him that I was only going to be there for less than an hour. He said it was not his decision. I decided to fire up the plane, called ground and asked for a spot where I could wait for the visibility to improve. Ground vectored me to another area where I could park without charge.

Look, I get that Signature is a business, but at some point good business also includes helping out someone who had to make a short pit-stop to wait-out some weather. Rather than write this nasty review, I could have just as easily written a positive one had they helped! A little courtesy and common sense goes a long way!
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If you can park somewhere else on the same airport and not pay a landing fee, something does not sound right to me. Are you sure this was not a ramp fee, or facility fee?
 
sarangan said:
If you can park somewhere else on the same airport and not pay a landing fee, something does not sound right to me. Are you sure this was not a ramp fee, or facility fee?
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Probably was a ramp fee. In any case, I find it very sad that every public funded airport doesn't have an apron where transients can park for free for an hour or two. A couple of the local FBO's have adopted the business model of "If the airplane slows down on the taxiway near the FBO, charge 'em a ramp fee." That chaps my ass.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Look, I get that Signature is a business, but at some point good business also includes helping out someone who had to make a short pit-stop to wait-out some weather.
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Piston aircraft services are not profitable for Signature and they do not want them taking up space on their ramp. If you don't really want piston aircraft on your ramp ever, charging every piston aircraft that rolls on your ramp is the good business decision.
 
And if the only transient place to park is an FBO that prefers jet business, that FBO should not be allowed at an airport.

Frankly that type of totalitarianism and stupidity has no room at GA airports. The worst part is when municipalities or counties allow wholesale management or rental of entire airports to third parties. If this is happening at your airport, do not allow it- fight it, fight it, fight it, get a hold of AOPA and refuse landing fees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Most private pilot experiences with signature range from ok to terrible. It's very well known their target customers are bizjets and turboprops dropping > $1k every landing.

I don't disagree with you that in situations like yours, it isn't fair that you should have to pay a fee. However, I'll put it like this:

I live in the rural midwest. Around here paying fees for anything but your fuel is unusual. Being used to that, I too bristle at being charged just to roll my wheels across someone's pavement. However, if I go to a busy controlled field in a destination or highly populated area I know it's coming. I could have told you there would likely be fees at that airport just looking at the sectional. CA, LA area, in a big yellow area, blue airport symbol? It would be more surprising if there weren't any fees. I don't like it either but at some point if you go to places like that you just have to resign yourself to it. Sucks but what are you going to do?
 
I would have been more surprised if you told me a signature aviation DIDNT charge you.

This is the type of thing signature is famous for, I hope you at least ate your weight worth of their cookies.
 
Could Signature's behavior be considered a safety issue because pilots are avoiding their airport? Would suck to hear a pilot say on the radio "no, I don't want to land at that airport, I'll go to another one where Signature isn't."

I have to admit, I'd be inclined to look for other alternatives, even in a minor emergency.
 
Signature has been a lot better behaved since they got thrown out of SNA and threatened at SBA over their behavior. I often intentionally use Signature now, depending where I am.

Signature waives their ramp fees for all of 7 gallons. The gas at Signature VNY is $5.54 a gallon. That's not cheap, but it isn't extortionate either. You get 50 cents off a gallon on weekends too. I've been treated very well by them whenever I've been there, but I've also always made sure to buy some gas and I've never been charged a fee.

Btw, VNY has a piston only ramp with a small FBO called The Park VNY with no fees and $4.49 self serve. They've been there for some time now and I'm surprised the tower didn't direct you there.

kayoh190 said:
Never one to defend a Signature, but does VNY have some sort of landing fee that's required to be collected from each FBO? In other words, would you have had this problem no matter where you parked?

It's been a long time since I've been at VNY, as a pilot anyway. :)
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VNY does NOT have a landing fee.

bflynn said:
Apparently Castle and Cook is the proper choice. Consistently $0 landing fee, $30 overnight. And they have a restaurant.

https://rampfee.me/search/kvny#Light_Piston_Single
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Castle and Cooke also charges nearly $3 more per gallon for AvGas! I would never give them business..
 
bflynn said:
Could Signature's behavior be considered a safety issue because pilots are avoiding their airport? Would suck to hear a pilot say on the radio "no, I don't want to land at that airport, I'll go to another one where Signature isn't."

I have to admit, I'd be inclined to look for other alternatives, even in a minor emergency.
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Pilots have crashed themselves by flying past high gas price airports only to run out of fuel, I think if in a emergency, or unplanned fuel burn situation, if FBO fees or fuel cost even cross the mind, there are major problems and signature is the least of them.

Besides long term budget wise, how often are you having a emergency?
Just splurge for a $75 landing fee and a extra $1.50 per gallon once every decade or so, in trade for your life, pax, plane, or not just not having to deal with FAA because you landed on a golf course zero fuel after passing a airport with fuel. Seems like a great excuse to get the famous $100 stale cookie.
 
Self serve fuel at VNY is the same as WHP and cheaper than CMA.

This kind of misinformation also contributes to pilots stretching fuel or avoiding busy, towered airports that generally have safer operations.

I bet if the OP spoke to Signature corporate or the local management about the situation, they'd give them a break. Of course, they could have also bought 7 gallons of gas. Or asked the line when they were parking and gone over to The Park.

In all, this thread has had misinformation about the following:

1) That VNY has a landing fee (it doesn't)

2) That Castle and Cooke is a better option (it definitely isn't at $8.30 a gallon vs. $5.54/5.04)

3) That there isn't a free transient ramp (there is)

4) That Signature doesn't make it easy to have fees waived (they do, generally and especially when they have any competition).

5) That VNY is somehow expensive to operate to as a transient piston (it definitely isn't)
 
Always assume if you pull onto any FBO's ramp there is a ramp fee. As jacked up as their fees are for GA that is their business to provide facilities for pilots and planes. Even if it is just marshaling for parking and departure and checking in with you to see if you need services your presence still takes time of their employees they are paying. Call on Unicom to confirm if it is divert situation that you can not advice plan.

I don't blame Ground...you asked for somewhere "to wait out the weather" which in my mind say a terminal or somewhere to park go inside to possibly brief weather rather than requesting "municipal parking" or "transient ramp".
 
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SneakyGrouse said:
I meant the cookies that signature often has.

And in a emergency situation, or low fuel, who cares, if FBO or fuel prices even comes up, flying might not be the best hobby or career lol

For normal planning, between ForeFlight and fltplan I go with the cheapest option that meets my needs, often that’s not signature, however there are plenty larger operations who don’t really care about a landing fee, or have a deal worked out with signature.

Nothing against them, I have slept on a fair amount of their couches and ate my fair share of their cookies and popcorn and racked up my share of miles on their cars, there is a reason they are successful
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Your post wasn't really my target there.
 
bflynn said:
Could Signature's behavior be considered a safety issue because pilots are avoiding their airport? Would suck to hear a pilot say on the radio "no, I don't want to land at that airport, I'll go to another one where Signature isn't."

I have to admit, I'd be inclined to look for other alternatives, even in a minor emergency.
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Don't let this minor pique escalate into unreasonableness.
 
In my anger, I wrote "LANDING FEE." I meant to write, "RAMP FEE" (or some other nonsense). My point is that I needed an hour of time to wait out some weather. Their lack of courtesy was appalling, IMHO.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Piston aircraft services are not profitable for Signature and they do not want them taking up space on their ramp. If you don't really want piston aircraft on your ramp ever, charging every piston aircraft that rolls on your ramp is the good business decision.
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Except for the bad publicity. And if they don't care about that, you may be right...
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
In my anger, I wrote "LANDING FEE." I meant to write, "RAMP FEE" (or some other nonsense). My point is that I needed an hour of time to wait out some weather. Their lack of courtesy was appalling, IMHO.
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I mean this the nicest way possible, you made the choice to live in SoCal, this is a result of that choice.

Lots of airports in “fly over country” where you could land and practically camp for all anyone would care, or even know.


SoCal 182 Driver said:
Except for the bad publicity. And if they don't care about that, you may be right...
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What do you think the LR60 driver flying into SoCal with a plane filled with millionaires thinks when he reads a comment that a 182 was angry over a $70 ramp/airport/whatever fee. His dispatch probably was told to go there because that’s where the pax driver picks them up from, they bill the fees to the pax and the pax probably tip their brunch waiter more than $70.

And you take up room, in some ways it could even make sense for them to not allow you on their ramp, business wise letting you take up space, take away linemen, add another body into the lobby, eat their cookies and drive their cars, space, staff and resources that could be used for kerosine burners who spend in the 4-5 figure range per stop with them.

If you choose to fly in these areas this is the result, LA isn’t even that bad compared to BOS or the like.
 
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SneakyGrouse said:
I mean this the nicest way possible, you made the choice to live in SoCal, this is a result of that choice.

Lots of airports in “fly over country” where you could land and practically camp for all anyone would care, or even know.
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This comment may be almost as poorly taken as the OP. There's nothing inherently more expensive about operating GA in Southern California than basically anywhere else.
 
N1120A said:
This comment may be almost as poorly taken as the OP. There's nothing inherently more expensive about operating GA in Southern California than basically anywhere else.
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I’m trying to unpack that, and failing at it lol

Yes the air is the same for the wing to cut through, gravity works the same way, but everything is more expensive in the basin than say Stanley, ND

Taxes are more, property is more, etc, how on earth could one expect fees for a airport in the middle of the very packed and cash stacked basin to be the same as a sleepy airport in rural farm country?

If you want to eat at the restaurant that all the rich people go to, that is packed every night, don’t complain when your kids coke is $5 a glass.
 
Welcome to VNY. Castle & Cooke is no better. VNY loves the jets and jets only. Handling jets for the LA rich and pumping Jet A is what they want to do. Your little piston is an afterthought to them when there is a BBJ And 2 G650s inbound to them carrying billionaires. I’ve been at Castle & Cooke when they had misplaced their 100LL truck more than once. Have also been asked repeatedly if I wanted Prist with my 100LL, if they ever find the 100LL truck. In the future, Burbank is surprisingly better for GA piston. Million Air FBO is pretty accommodating, as well as controllers. Very quiet (even with SWA) in comparison. God forbid you’re departing IFR from VNY. You’ll be sitting behind 20 Gulfstreams for over an hour.
 
cowman said:
Most private pilot experiences with signature range from ok to terrible. It's very well known their target customers are bizjets and turboprops dropping > $1k every landing.

I don't disagree with you that in situations like yours, it isn't fair that you should have to pay a fee. However, I'll put it like this:

I live in the rural midwest. Around here paying fees for anything but your fuel is unusual. Being used to that, I too bristle at being charged just to roll my wheels across someone's pavement. However, if I go to a busy controlled field in a destination or highly populated area I know it's coming. I could have told you there would likely be fees at that airport just looking at the sectional. CA, LA area, in a big yellow area, blue airport symbol? It would be more surprising if there weren't any fees. I don't like it either but at some point if you go to places like that you just have to resign yourself to it. Sucks but what are you going to do?
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Isn't there a landing fee at your airport though? ;) Maybe not for you since you have a hangar there.
 
Geosync said:
Welcome to VNY. Castle & Cooke is no better. VNY loves the jets and jets only. Handling jets for the LA rich and pumping Jet A is what they want to do. Your little piston is an afterthought to them. I’ve been at Castle & Cooke when they had misplaced their 100LL truck more than once. Have also been asked repeatedly if I wanted Prist with my 100LL, if they ever find the 100LL truck. In the future, Burbank is surprisingly better for GA piston. Million Air FBO is pretty accommodating, as well as controllers. Very quiet (even with SWA) in comparison. God forbid you’re departing IFR from VNY. You’ll be sitting behind 20 Gulfstreams for over an hour.
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That place is a example of why you pick up your IFR in the air if you can.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Isn't there a landing fee at your airport though? ;) Maybe not for you since you have a hangar there.
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I think they have one officially but almost always waive it for piston singles. I’ve definitely never paid one.
 
SneakyGrouse said:
I’m trying to unpack that, and failing at it lol

Yes the air is the same for the wing to cut through, gravity works the same way, but everything is more expensive in the basin than say Stanley, ND

Taxes are more, property is more, etc, how on earth could one expect fees for a airport in the middle of the very packed and cash stacked basin to be the same as a sleepy airport in rural farm country?

If you want to eat at the restaurant that all the rich people go to, that is packed every night, don’t complain when your kids coke is $5 a glass.
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Lots of airports to choose from, many with sub $4 gas and reasonable hangar rents. It is amazing to have choice.

SneakyGrouse said:
That place is a example of why you pick up your IFR in the air if you can.
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I've never had an issue getting an IFR release off VNY
 
With an unplanned stop like this with multiple FBOs, don't be afraid to ask ground for a place to hold for a minute while you call the FBOs on UNICOM to see which is the best deal/services for you.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Rather than write this nasty review, I could have just as easily written a positive one had they helped! A little courtesy and common sense goes a long way!
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You wouldn't have written that positive review, though, because the FBO "not charging you to wait for an hour" is "normal", not "exceptional", and thus not worthy of special mention.

I think it's funny that when presented the "come pay us", you fired up and taxied off isntead. Good on you for showing them your empennage rather than rolling over. Of course, the bill will be in the mail because you touched their hallowed ramp. :D
 
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