Shutting down NDBs

David Megginson said:
In Canada, if both your main destination and your alternate have only RNAV approaches, they have to be at least 100 nm apart (in most of the country). That's a serious operational issue for small planes with limited ranges. I'm not sure if there's any similar rule in the US.

Having a usable NDB or VOR approach at either the destination or the alternate removes the 100 nm restriction.
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The rules are different in the US. In any event at least in the mid-Atlantic and Southeast regions NDB approaches are now a pretty rare beast. Again, I haven’t seen a rental aircraft with a working ADF literally in decades and I obviously don’t have one in my own plane. I guess my experience and perspective is biased towards ambivalence to this news at best.
 
smv said:
There are many airports around the country with only two types of approaches: NDB and RNAV. Take away the NDB and without an IFR certified GPS (yah, believe it or not, not every IFR airplane has an IFR GPS), you are not getting in....
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The airport I'm flying out of currently is one.... It's using an off field LOM.

I used to like the NDB on field ones the best.... the needle ALWAYS points to where I want to go! No programming, nothing...it just worked.
 
tsts4 said:
hardly— I’m just not apparently as emotionally tied to NDBs as you are.
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"Emotionally tied"? Project much?

P.S. Welcome to the Bozo Bin.
 
Trivia question. Where are the two LF/MF Airways still in the lower 48? Hint, carry flotation devices.
 
luvflyin said:
Trivia question. Where are the two LF/MF Airways still in the lower 48? Hint, carry flotation devices.
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The only non-Alaska one I know of is G13.
 
smv said:
Looks like B646 and G765 down there as well.
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Yeah. I see that now. The other one I was thinking when I started this was AR13 starting at CLB. G13 and B9 look like the only ones that begin and end in CONUS. And you can’t fly either of those solely with ADF anyway. Like I said, Trivia question.
 
IK04 said:
I was going to mention that approach, but didn't think it was worth mentioning.

Iresh NDB is the worst navaid I have ever used and most of those Copter NDB 351 approaches ended at the shopette instead of the airfield.

I have given hundreds of instrument evals between Hood (HLR), Temple(TPL) and Killeen(ILE) and I always ended the eval with that approach in order to get back home in minimum time. Now, the ILS is gone at ILE and the VOR is gone at TPL, so there is nowhere left to do a hold unless you go to Waco or GRK...

Get this: they decommissioned the VOR at TPL, but left the DME, so there is a square depicted on the chart and no approaches use it. Why?
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https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/criticaldme/
 
tsts4 said:
So enlighten me as to why this is a big deal
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I'm with you on that one, the ADF was taken out of our airplane when we put ADS-B in, and the only time I've done an NDB approach in my 5000+ hours of flying has been for training.
 
Anyone ever “play” with an ADF out of the panel, like hooked up to battery power or cigarette lighter, just for “fun”? I’d love to see how one works and would think it’d be legal just to do it this way for non-nav purposes. I’ve never flown with one. Not sure how you’d do the antenna.
 
I haven’t been in a plane with a working or non working ADF in over 15 years.
 
flyingbrit said:
WLW was 500kW only from 1934-1939. It is a "clear channel" and now has 50kW day and night.

There are several non-clear-channels with 50kW day and night. For example KMJ in Fresno, KBOI in Boise.
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That's probably all I'd need to go coast-to-coast ...
 
Ryan F. said:
With the ongoing march of time and technology it just isn't reasonable to expect NDBs to be maintained within the contiguous United States. We don't have 4-course ranges anymore, for a reason.

I personally wish LORAN had been kept around as a low-cost backup, but otherwise I'm in favor of NDBs hitting the dirt road outta here. I did NDB holds on my CFII checkride... :)
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Ever hold at an intersection of two NDB courses?
 
Pilawt said:
Surprisingly, KFI 640 is not charted. KFI is the 823' tower just west of Fullerton Airport. I learned to fly at Fullerton, and one was always aware of KFI. The top of the tower was 23 feet higher than the traffic pattern altitude in those days, so one kept bloodshot eyes peeled on smoggy days in the pattern. KFI was a 50,000 watt clear channel station -- with your ADF you could home in on that sucker from Mars. (Cold War-era trivia: KFI was one of the "Conelrad" stations. Remember AM radios that had the little "CD" logo at the 640 and 1240 spots on the dial?) I grew up just a mile from KFI's transmitter. You could faintly hear KFI programming over the dial tone on our home telephone. My mother swore she could hear it in the fillings in her teeth. KFI carried the Dodgers baseball broadcasts in the '60s and early '70s, so you could listen to Vin Scully's play-by-play as you're cruising all the way back home from Albuquerque. In a slow airplane you could hear the whole double-header.

Remember Flight Guide, those little brown loose-leaf books chock full of airport diagrams and information? For every airport, Flight Guide listed a nearby AM broadcast station. Came in handy sometimes.
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Ah, yes, KFI. That tower's been hit a couple of times.

aterpster said:
I thought the FCC limited AM radio to 50 kilowatts at least from the 1950s, on, and 5 KW at night unless it is a "clear channel" transmitter.
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It's more complex than that...
flyingbrit said:
WLW was 500kW only from 1934-1939. It is a "clear channel" and now has 50kW day and night.

There are several non-clear-channels with 50kW day and night. For example KMJ in Fresno, KBOI in Boise.
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And even more complex than that, too.

There are 3 "classes" of AM channel: wide-area ("clear"), regional, and local - and those are defined in both the FCC rules and international agreements.

The locals are limited to 1 KW, day and night, and there are a LOT of stations on them... for purposes of airborne reception, there are so many that it they cause interference with each other. They are almost all non-directional, which should be good for navigation, but the interference limits their usefulness.

The regional channels used to be limited by the FCC to 5 kilowatts (until the 90's), but are now permitted to operate as high as 50 KW. Most stations on these frequencies operate with directional antennas - concentrating power in one direction or another. The intent is to keep the stations from interfering with each other - some are non-directional daytime, most are directional day and night, and with very few exceptions, even the stations that are non-directional daytime operate with a directional antenna at night. Mexico, Canada, and countries in the Caribbean & South America had power limits of 50 kilowatts or higher going back to the early international agreements.

The Clear Channels had one or two "primary" or "Protected" stations (called "Class A") on the channel - stations that were the only Class A station on the channel were generally non-directional (examples are WABC, New York; WLS, Chicago; WCFL/WMVP, Chicago; KOA, Denver; WLW, Cincinnati, etc), while Class A stations that share a channel usually use directional antennas to protect each other (WFED, Washington and KSTP, St. Paul share 1500 as Class A stations and have directional antennas). In addition, secondary stations ("Class B") were allowed to operate on the clear channels as long as they didn't interfere with the existing Class A stations (WDFN, Detroit and KTLK, Minneapolis are both Class B stations on 1130 and both protect each other as well as the Class A station WNEW in New York). At night, those stations have "blowtorch" directional antennas, sending most of their signal to Canada.

International treaties permit more than 50 KW on the clear channels, but the FCC (and Canada) has limited them to 50 KW. WLW had an experimental license to operate with 500 KW (with a directional antenna to protect something in Canada); that went away after Congress and the FCC decided to impose the 50 KW limit.

So, as things stand today, you'll find 50 KW to be the maximum power level on all channels in the US & Canada except the local channels, with the locals at 1 KW. Mexico is a different matter altogether - 100 KW is supposed to be the limit, but.... Look up "border blasters" with particular emphasis on "Mexican border blasters" - Robert Weston Smith (you'd know him by his persona of "Wolfman Jack") spent a lot of time howling on a famous Mexican border blaster XERF, which operated at 250 KW for a while.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Anyone ever “play” with an ADF out of the panel, like hooked up to battery power or cigarette lighter, just for “fun”? I’d love to see how one works and would think it’d be legal just to do it this way for non-nav purposes. I’ve never flown with one. Not sure how you’d do the antenna.
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Just imagine a needle pointing at a station. That is 95% of the experience. The other 5% is the needle spinning in circles.
 
My ADF still works well and I still practice approaches at the few local airports that have working equipment. They aren’t precision approaches but aren’t difficult to fly and might be handy some day.
Gary
 
At Ensenada (MMES) the NDB transmitter was taken by thieves (copper?) and hasn't been replaced.

Unfortunately, it's the only instrument approach, and yeah, we get IMC here.
 
I think your attitude towards NDBs has a lot to do with your training. If your instructor felt uncomfortable and didn't really understand them, and just pushed unnecessarily-complicated rules and procedures they memorised on you, then you probably came to hate and fear them, too.

If you were lucky enough to have an instructor who actually understood them and taught them as the simple navaids they really are (step one: the needle points at the station; step 2: there is no step 2), then you probably aren't afraid or hostile, either.
 
LORAN was great. I’ve heard rumors that it’s coming back. Is it true LORAN is not subject to nuclear magnetic pulse damage/interference?
 
David Megginson said:
If you were lucky enough to have an instructor who actually understood them and taught them as the simple navaids they really are (step one: the needle points at the station; step 2: there is no step 2), then you probably aren't afraid or hostile, either.
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Ya don't hafta buy a database subscription, neither! :D
 
n2230b said:
LORAN was great. I’ve heard rumors that it’s coming back. Is it true LORAN is not subject to nuclear magnetic pulse damage/interference?
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More that it should be harder to jam, and you can physically protect the installations. GPS could in theory be taken out by launching a few loads of space trash into generally intersecting orbits, or other more targeted approaches.
 
luvflyin said:
Ever hold at an intersection of two NDB courses?
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When I began flying IFR, there were NDBs everywhere and I flew all them in my area.

If there was an NDB/NDB intersection, I'm sure I would have sought it and done the hold just to say I did it... Sadly, I can't remember that far back. The old missed approach off of Monterey, CA used a bizarre routing using a combination of the localizer, a course to an intersection using an NDB and a hold at the old SHARK intersection miles our over the Pacific Ocean!

I will miss the Compass Locators at all the ILS approaches, if they remove them. They made life so easy for a course reversal...

I practiced NDB holding using radio stations all the time and I would use them for training my students. Fortunately, they were nowhere near any of the busy Bay Area IFR routes.
 
Rgbeard said:
At Ensenada (MMES) the NDB transmitter was taken by thieves (copper?) and hasn't been replaced.

Unfortunately, it's the only instrument approach, and yeah, we get IMC here.
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Can’t you just do the gps overlay?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Anyone ever “play” with an ADF out of the panel, like hooked up to battery power or cigarette lighter, just for “fun”? I’d love to see how one works and would think it’d be legal just to do it this way for non-nav purposes. I’ve never flown with one. Not sure how you’d do the antenna.
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I'm not sure I see the point really....Maybe I'm missing something. What are you thinking you might see?
Seems to me it would be kinda like holding a compass in one hand and a permanent magnet in the other....except that the magnet would be some ground based am radio station or handheld transmitter.

luvflyin said:
Ever hold at an intersection of two NDB courses?
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yes...but only as a training exercise....one RMI. Dialing upstation 1, ID it get the fix....dial up and ID station 2....repeat.

That sort of thing is not what I remember fondly about ADF's.... It was shooting the apporaches to on field stations..... Track to the station, Needle swings at the MAP....easy peasy. I like simple.
like this one
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2003/pdf/05781N20.PDF

I keep thinking about the discussions about backup systems for GPS, the "intefernace GPS testing", the idea that they will maintain a few VOR stations as a national backup, etc...
I've never been in a VOR station and don't know much about it but I'd assume it to be at least a bit complicated...broadcasting different radials, keeping things calibrated, etc...
SO how much would a little low power AM transmitter cost? like the little AWOS box I was looking at just yesterday... with today's electronics seems like it could be done on the cheap.... attached to a small roof mounted antenna...wouldn't have to be powerful, wouldn't have to be exceptionally tall, very short range wouldn't require much power. They could've put one at every Unicom station and every airport control tower.....and had an awesome backup. Needle always points to an airport! As a back-up type application I wouldn't think they would need to be as strong or robust as the old ones were.
Oh well, that ship has sailed. Folks aren't keeping them in their aircraft, pilots aren't learning them anymore.
 
Rgbeard said:
At Ensenada (MMES) the NDB transmitter was taken by thieves (copper?) and hasn't been replaced.

Unfortunately, it's the only instrument approach, and yeah, we get IMC here.
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It escapes me why Mexico hasn't implemented an RNAV approach at MMES. The cartels can't steal the GPS sats.
 
Brad W said:
I'm not sure I see the point really....Maybe I'm missing something. What are you thinking you might see?
Seems to me it would be kinda like holding a compass in one hand and a permanent magnet in the other....except that the magnet would be some ground based am radio station or handheld transmitter.


yes...but only as a training exercise....one RMI. Dialing upstation 1, ID it get the fix....dial up and ID station 2....repeat.

That sort of thing is not what I remember fondly about ADF's.... It was shooting the apporaches to on field stations..... Track to the station, Needle swings at the MAP....easy peasy. I like simple.
like this one
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2003/pdf/05781N20.PDF

I keep thinking about the discussions about backup systems for GPS, the "intefernace GPS testing", the idea that they will maintain a few VOR stations as a national backup, etc...
I've never been in a VOR station and don't know much about it but I'd assume it to be at least a bit complicated...broadcasting different radials, keeping things calibrated, etc...
SO how much would a little low power AM transmitter cost? like the little AWOS box I was looking at just yesterday... with today's electronics seems like it could be done on the cheap.... attached to a small roof mounted antenna...wouldn't have to be powerful, wouldn't have to be exceptionally tall, very short range wouldn't require much power. They could've put one at every Unicom station and every airport control tower.....and had an awesome backup. Needle always points to an airport! As a back-up type application I wouldn't think they would need to be as strong or robust as the old ones were.
Oh well, that ship has sailed. Folks aren't keeping them in their aircraft, pilots aren't learning them anymore.
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I’d a killed for an RMI, just had a Fixed Card Indicator. The CFI who had me doing it was a creative guy. One NDB and one Broadcast Station, KSON in San Diego. He liked to listen to, as he put it, Hillbilly music.
 
Brad W said:
I'm not sure I see the point really....Maybe I'm missing something. What are you thinking you might see?
Seems to me it would be kinda like holding a compass in one hand and a permanent magnet in the other....except that the magnet would be some ground based am radio station or handheld transmitter.


yes...but only as a training exercise....one RMI. Dialing upstation 1, ID it get the fix....dial up and ID station 2....repeat.

That sort of thing is not what I remember fondly about ADF's.... It was shooting the apporaches to on field stations..... Track to the station, Needle swings at the MAP....easy peasy. I like simple.
like this one
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2003/pdf/05781N20.PDF

I keep thinking about the discussions about backup systems for GPS, the "intefernace GPS testing", the idea that they will maintain a few VOR stations as a national backup, etc...
I've never been in a VOR station and don't know much about it but I'd assume it to be at least a bit complicated...broadcasting different radials, keeping things calibrated, etc...
SO how much would a little low power AM transmitter cost? like the little AWOS box I was looking at just yesterday... with today's electronics seems like it could be done on the cheap.... attached to a small roof mounted antenna...wouldn't have to be powerful, wouldn't have to be exceptionally tall, very short range wouldn't require much power. They could've put one at every Unicom station and every airport control tower.....and had an awesome backup. Needle always points to an airport! As a back-up type application I wouldn't think they would need to be as strong or robust as the old ones were.
Oh well, that ship has sailed. Folks aren't keeping them in their aircraft, pilots aren't learning them anymore.
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I agree—NDBs would have been a much (orders of magnitude) cheaper backup option for GPS, if people hadn't already removed them from their panels. Oh well.
 
Still have one in our plane, at least until I can afford GPS. I use it regularly as we have an NDB as an outer marker on an ILS.
 
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