Should pilots admit fault when given a PD?

[Doc Holliday]

That’s a few hundred pages, counselor. Are you just throwing this stuff out there hoping no one actually looks it up?

Please, for those less gifted in intellect (and time) quote the relevant sections that supports your bold statements.

I have explained it, you just can’t accept it. And yes, I’ve read all that material, many many times.

And I gave the references because some people actually like to read, but I do understand for others it can be difficult.

It’s all right there for anyone, nothing is hidden, no secrets.

 

[Doc Holliday]

One final point.

Two things that will get a pilot deviation moved away from the Compliance Philosophy and into an enforcement are an uncooperative airman, or if the evidence shows the airman deliberately intended to break the regulation.

Competency issues are dealt with via the 44709 process.

 

[Rick182]

Right.

And don’t forget, when making that claim during a pilot deviation investigation, be prepared to supply the Inspector with the police report.

You have a very unique understanding of due process. While “let’s just get along” works best in most instances of minor transgressions, for more serious issues a pilot or any other accused is best served by shutting up and allowing competent counsel do the talking.

 

[Tantalum]

I'm not sure it's about "admitting fault" just say sorry and be nice. It's a human on the other end trying to keep other planes safe. If you're given a number, call and be nice, use it as an educational opportunity. Or, if you were unhappy, all the phone numbers are listed, just call and ask to talk to someone and work it out

 

[Doc Holliday]

You have a very unique understanding of due process. While “let’s just get along” works best in most instances of minor transgressions, for more serious issues a pilot or any other accused is best served by shutting up and allowing competent counsel do the talking.

The thread started out discussing pilot deviations, which are administrative. And deviations that weren’t intentional, and the airman cooperated are handled via counseling or additional training without going through an enforcement.

But some here keep conflating an unintentional pilot deviation with an intentional disregard of the regulations, and even criminal activity.

And as I stated earlier, if you want a lawyer, hire one. But in an unintentional deviation, lawyer or not, the result will be the same, counseling or additional training.

 

[Tantalum]

for more serious issues a pilot or any other accused is best served by shutting up and allowing competent counsel do the talking

I agree. But how often is that happening? Getting pulled over for speeding or some genuine legal offense is different than someone who dials in a heading wrong in their AP (170* vs 070) and ends up causing a loss of separation and subsequent ATC issue

 

[Pi1otguy]

I'm not sure it's about "admitting fault" just say sorry and be nice.

Years of driving kinda makes that scary. If something almost happens while driving and no cops or damages are involved I will admit and say sorry if wrong. But the moment a ticket or judgement becomes possible everything changes

 

[Doc Holliday]

So now you’re saying that my friend, a 20,000+ hour ATP who retired from a major airline INTENTIONALLY busted a TFR? Wow! That’s a pretty bold assertion considering you’ve never met the guy.

Still waiting for even a single quote from you from a reputable source that supports anything you said. Or I could just read all the FARs and ACs and legal opinions myself and I’m sure they’d all agree with you...

Yes, what I cited does agree with what I’ve written. That’s why I gave the guidance I was using to back up what I wrote.

As for your friend, I’ve not made any such claim. All I did say was it’s apparent there is more to the story than an inadvertent deviation.

Send me a PM with the registration number of his aircraft at the time of the deviation.

Thanks.

 

[Doc Holliday]

You cited thousands of pages of regulation, but not a single quote that supports any of your assertions.

If I come across a condensed version of guidance written for those with minimal reading comprehension I’ll send it over to you.

Who knows, maybe there’s a “FSIMS for dummies” book out there?

 

[Palmpilot]

Apologizing for my screw-ups has been working for me for 29 years. No sanctions of any kind, so far.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No problem. See FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 14 and FAA Order 2150.3C.

An overriding policy like the Compliance Program is great and I think it has worked incredibly well. And there are checks and balances in the process. But it is not a panacea. There are those who may not have quite bought in and they can sometimes get their way.

There are bad FAA enforcement actions just like there are bad lawsuits and bad criminal prosecutions. Written rules don't prevent them.

 

[FastEddieB]

Apologizing for my screw-ups has been working for me for 29 years. No sanctions of any kind, so far.

This was roughly my take, albeit over a few more years.

I might hesitate to say much on the radio, other than an almost reflexive “Sorry” or “Oops”. But over a lifetime, my general philosophy is...

1) Do my level best not to screw up in the first place, but then...

2) If I do, own up to it quickly and honestly and accept the consequences, if any.

So far, also no violations or enforcement actions of any kind on my certificate, and the above philosophy has served me well. So far.

 

[Doc Holliday]

An overriding policy like the Compliance Program is great and I think it has worked incredibly well. And there are checks and balances in the process. But it is not a panacea. There are those who may not have quite bought in and they can sometimes get their way.

There are bad FAA enforcement actions just like there are bad lawsuits and bad criminal prosecutions. Written rules don't prevent them.

Kinda hard for someone ( I believe you are referring to an Inspector) to "get their way" in turning a unintentional PD into an enforcement when it has several steps above him for concurrence, and ultimately FAA Legal makes the call. And if it meets the guidance on the Compliance Action FAA Legal will send it back down. And they are the final say, and they aren't going to add to their case load over something that can be handled locally.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I’m done wasting my time with you. Just like a politician, you talk a big talk but then can’t find one concrete statement to support what you’re saying and then when you get called out on it you attack the person arguing with you because you don’t stand a chance defending your ridiculous position (don’t worry, I won’t use the word “smart” around you).

Please rest assured I will ignore all of your future posts.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Kinda hard for someone ( I believe you are referring to an Inspector) to "get their way" in turning a unintentional PD into an enforcement when it has several steps above him for concurrence, and ultimately FAA Legal makes the call. And if it meets the guidance on the Compliance Action FAA Legal will send it back down. And they are the final say, and they aren't going to add to their case load over something that can be handled locally.

You are welcome to believe that it's a perfect world.

 

[Velocity173]

The whole admitting fault has nothing to do with the ATC side of the investigation. There’s no pilot statement on their end at all. Their data collecting process during the Brasher phone call is nothing more than pilots name, address, cert number and contact information. Done. They don’t do compliance actions nor enforcement actions.

Even if you just happen to tell them over the phone and admit you were in fault, theres no requirement to log that. Now, if you admit fault to ATC and it gets logged in the remarks sections, the investigation process on their end doesn’t stop. You could’ve actually been correct and the controller wrong phraseology. That’s where the facility QA comes into play. ATC QA will still collect data, review data, then decide if it’s an actual PD and warrants being sent to the ASI.

Now, the ASI will ask questions and basically admitting fault will enter into the equation. Personally, since the vast majority of inadvertent PDs will result in a warning letter or remedial training, I wouldn’t be worried about admitting fault. Even if it results in a pilot suspension, unless you’re looking to fly professionally, who cares?