Should I get the Comm?

[spiderweb]

Here's me:

Mid-40s. Fly for business and recreation. Fly about 60 hours or so per year. Go out with CFI every other month for stick and rudder skills and IR skills.

I did get the Gleim test prep and was scoring high. (I am anal, and got 100% on both the PPL and IR tests--which means almost nothing.)

But I like challenges. Two summers ago, it was G1000 training, for example. This summer, it was transition training to the Cirrus.

So, next time? Comm or multi?

My only beef with the multi is that no one seems to rent them for X-Cs. (And no one rents the Twin Commander 700 which I've flown a few times, and which I feel is an incredible flying machine.)

 

[flyingron]

Well, if you think you might get the CFI, you might as well get the commercial. It should be easier than the instrument rating was.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you'd enjoy the commercial. The manuevers are fun and really help develop your mastery of the airplane.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think you'd enjoy the commercial. The manuevers are fun and really help develop your mastery of the airplane.

Concur.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I understand that the commercial is easier than the IR. What about the CFI. How hard is it as compared to the other two?

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I think you'd enjoy the commercial. The manuevers are fun and really help develop your mastery of the airplane.

Although I have never gone through the FAA commercial training, ( I was just handed my certificate) I did look through the PTS. IMHO anything that increases your skill also increases your safety and enjoyment of an activity. If you don't plan on buying a multi I think the commercial would be a smart move.

 

[kgruber]

Rotorcraft rating

 

[Henning]

Do Multi and Seaplane at the same time in a Beech 18, hang out and have some fun with Jojo.

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone!

 

[spiderweb]

Do Multi and Seaplane at the same time in a Beech 18, hang out and have some fun with Jojo.

Yeah, I'm sure I could get both ratings real easily (not). In a Beech 18?? That's going to run me a pretty penny, indeed!

 

[gprellwitz]

Commercial. If you don't have ready access to a multi, it will be hard to maintain proficiency. And the CFI is MUCH harder from what I understand, and is more about teaching than flying.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, I'm sure I could get both ratings real easily (not). In a Beech 18?? That's going to run me a pretty penny, indeed!

The Beech 18 on floats is a complete pussycat, my Travelair was more challenging and my 310 more of a handful. The only time a B-18 is ungracious is taxi after the tail wheel lock comes off. You'll have the rating, MES, in the weekend, cost is around $5k.

 

[TMetzinger]

Grant is correct. The CFI was the hardest ride I've had so far. And it's about teaching, not about flying so much. I had 1200+ hours before I started the CFI, and was proficient. It didn't help much... because teaching is a whole new level Demonstrating is only the small (easy) part of it. Evaluating and correcting are much harder.

 

[jnmeade]

Do not get any advanced ratings like Comm or ATP unless you absolutely need them. If you do and are violated by the FAA, they will punish you based not only on the severity of what they consider to be your crime but also on your level of training, that is, whether you should "know better" or not.

You interest in advancing your skills is laudable. Some options might be:
tail wheel checkout
sea plane rating
aerobatic training
upset training
helicopter training
glider checkout
warbird training
hot air balloon training
airship flight


If you are dead set on taking commercial training, go ahead and develop the skill set but do not take the check ride or at least do not let them award you the certificate.

 

[wsuffa]

I think you'd enjoy the commercial. The manuevers are fun and really help develop your mastery of the airplane.

This.

You will handle the plane more precisely after learning the commercial maneuvers.

 

[TMetzinger]

Do not get any advanced ratings like Comm or ATP unless you absolutely need them. If you do and are violated by the FAA, they will punish you based not only on the severity of what they consider to be your crime but also on your level of training, that is, whether you should "know better" or not.

You interest in advancing your skills is laudable. Some options might be:
tail wheel checkout
sea plane rating
aerobatic training
upset training
helicopter training
glider checkout
warbird training
hot air balloon training
airship flight


If you are dead set on taking commercial training, go ahead and develop the skill set but do not take the check ride or at least do not let them award you the certificate.

This strikes me as bad advice. Don't bust the regs, it won't matter what your certificate is. I also don't think it's true, at least until you get to the CFI level.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Do not get any advanced ratings like Comm or ATP unless you absolutely need them. If you do and are violated by the FAA, they will punish you based not only on the severity of what they consider to be your crime but also on your level of training, that is, whether you should "know better" or not.

You interest in advancing your skills is laudable. Some options might be:
tail wheel checkout
sea plane rating
aerobatic training
upset training
helicopter training
glider checkout
warbird training
hot air balloon training
airship flight


If you are dead set on taking commercial training, go ahead and develop the skill set but do not take the check ride or at least do not let them award you the certificate.

This.

 

[Everskyward]

This strikes me as bad advice. Don't bust the regs, it won't matter what your certificate is. I also don't think it's true, at least until you get to the CFI level.

I agree. Whether it's true or not, the chances of both getting in trouble and having your level of certification make a difference is so slim that it wouldn't seem worth worrying about. In fact this is the first time I've ever seen that advice given.

 

[Henning]

It's the truth though and the FAA states it as policy, the higher your rating the harder the rip you will take for transgressions.

 

[Everskyward]

It's the truth though and the FAA states it as policy, the higher your rating the harder the rip you will take for transgressions.

Just seems like an odd thing to worry about to me. If you're going to worry about something, worry about not making any unintended contact with other objects or the ground.

 

[Henning]

Just seems like an odd thing to worry about to me. If you're going to worry about something, worry about not making any unintended contact with other objects or the ground.

I don't worry about it, but I don't recommend getting a CP unless one intends to need a CP, then they are quick to get. If he had the written done he could do his CPMES in a weekend in the Be 18 or CPSEL/S in a Lake Amphib in a weekend as well. The CP flying stuff is easy, it's the written that's annoying lol.

I think for a person limited in his time to dedicate to aviation that there would be more fun or productive ways to spend that time. Now of course if he desires to be a CFI he'll need a CP first, but I'd say there's no rush for the CP on that account.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't worry about it, but I don't recommend getting a CP unless one intends to need a CP, then they are quick to get. If he had the written done he could do his CPMES in a weekend in the Be 18 or CPSEL/S in a Lake Amphib in a weekend as well. The CP flying stuff is easy, it's the written that's annoying lol.

He said he was doing the test prep and scoring high so the written shouldn't be any problem for him.

I think for a person limited in his time to dedicate to aviation that there would be more fun or productive ways to spend that time. Now of course if he desires to be a CFI he'll need a CP first, but I'd say there's no rush for the CP on that account.

There are definitely many options of things to work on but I wouldn't try to discourage someone from getting a commercial because they are worried about potential FAA enforcement action.

 

[jnmeade]

He flies 60 hours a year and showed no inclination to fly for hire. 60 hours a year is barely enough to stay proficient.
I cited a number of ways to increase proficiency and the range of flying skills without the unnecessary exposure to an increased rating he is very unlikely to use.
Having a commercial may give more bragging rights than does upset training or other directly applicable skills, but it does not make one a better pilot than the alternatives mentioned. The commercial skill level can be attained on one's own with a CFI without taking the checkride, but then you can't "hang the paper".
Getting a rating for the sake of the rating adds to one's exposure but doesn't improve the skill set any more than spending the money on other training that would be used in the normal course of the 60 hours a year recreational flying.
I can't think of anyone who goes out to fly and get violated, but it does happen so why increase exposure without some payback beyond bragging rights.
The commercial is mostly about aircraft operations and systems used on light twins in charter operations, not on single engine private operations.

 

[Everskyward]

The commercial is mostly about aircraft operations and systems used on light twins in charter operations, not on single engine private operations.

If you get a single-engine commercial and bring a single-engine airplane to the test they will ask you about the systems in that airplane, not about systems in light twins. There are also plenty of jobs which require a commercial that have nothing to do with charter.

Getting a rating for the sake of the rating adds to one's exposure but doesn't improve the skill set any more than spending the money on other training that would be used in the normal course of the 60 hours a year recreational flying.

Some people like to have a tangible goal, like a rating. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think we should be scaring people off from getting a rating because of some possible but improbable situation. I have also heard that someone with a higher rating than the PIC, or a CFI, should not get in an airplane as as passenger for fear of somehow getting in trouble. That doesn't stop me, however. I agree, though, that it is a personal decision.

 

[spiderweb]

The Beech 18 on floats is a complete pussycat, my Travelair was more challenging and my 310 more of a handful. The only time a B-18 is ungracious is taxi after the tail wheel lock comes off. You'll have the rating, MES, in the weekend, cost is around $5k.

That's really cool.

 

[spiderweb]

Do not get any advanced ratings like Comm or ATP unless you absolutely need them. If you do and are violated by the FAA, they will punish you based not only on the severity of what they consider to be your crime but also on your level of training, that is, whether you should "know better" or not.

You interest in advancing your skills is laudable. Some options might be:
tail wheel checkout
sea plane rating
aerobatic training
upset training
helicopter training
glider checkout
warbird training
hot air balloon training
airship flight


If you are dead set on taking commercial training, go ahead and develop the skill set but do not take the check ride or at least do not let them award you the certificate.

Interesting. Never thought of it that way!

 

[gismo]

It's the truth though and the FAA states it as policy, the higher your rating the harder the rip you will take for transgressions.

That's been shown to be the case for CFI and ATP ratings although IIRC in the ATP case it's only been a factor in situations where the ATP rating was required for the flight. I don't recall any situations where the mere possession of a commercial rating resulted in increased sanctions for an infraction committed on a flight where commercial privileges were not being exercised. Anyone have an example or two to the contrary?

 

[TMetzinger]

That's my recollection as well, Lance.

Frankly, if you're that afraid of trouble with the FAA - just stay on the ground.

As for the commercial knowledge, it covers deeper knowledge of aerodynamics, and systems including constant speed propellers, retractable landing gear, but nothing specific to twins.

 

[spiderweb]

If you get a single-engine commercial and bring a single-engine airplane to the test they will ask you about the systems in that airplane, not about systems in light twins. There are also plenty of jobs which require a commercial that have nothing to do with charter.

Some people like to have a tangible goal, like a rating. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think we should be scaring people off from getting a rating because of some possible but improbable situation. I have also heard that someone with a higher rating than the PIC, or a CFI, should not get in an airplane as as passenger for fear of somehow getting in trouble. That doesn't stop me, however. I agree, though, that it is a personal decision.

And I'm seeing that renters insurance tends to be higher for CP.

The CFI was one of my future goals for two reasons: 1) I have 25 years of teaching an applied skill and 15 years of college teaching, so that part shouldn't be hard, and 2) I might get to fly more!

 

[gismo]

I don't worry about it, but I don't recommend getting a CP unless one intends to need a CP, then they are quick to get. If he had the written done he could do his CPMES in a weekend in the Be 18 or CPSEL/S in a Lake Amphib in a weekend as well. The CP flying stuff is easy, it's the written that's annoying lol.

I think for a person limited in his time to dedicate to aviation that there would be more fun or productive ways to spend that time. Now of course if he desires to be a CFI he'll need a CP first, but I'd say there's no rush for the CP on that account.

Given your ag experience I assume you have a cmml rating yourself but when's the last time you used it? If you're not flying for hire anymore, you could reduce your enforcement exposure by voluntarily relinquishing that rating/privilege.

I've had commercial ratings (ASEL, AMEL, ASES) for years but I don't recall anyone ever paying me to fly, Chances are pretty good that I won't see that in the future either but I feel no concerns over my extended exposure enforcement wise. The rating did come in handy for a few years when the company I was working for concluded that their liability insurance would cover an accident when I was flying on company business as long as I had a commercial or higher rating and I do still harbor the fantasy of becoming a CFI in my old age.

 

[Lance F]

When I think of all the flying opportunities I would have missed if I had not gotten my comm certificate, I really have to grit my teeth reading the "advice" above. I have been lucky in bumping into some great situations, but had I not had comm & AMEL on that piece of plastic I would not have been able to take advantage of them.

Use aviation to open doors not fear of the Feds to close them.

 

[Everskyward]

The CFI was one of my future goals for two reasons: 1) I have 25 years of teaching an applied skill and 15 years of college teaching, so that part shouldn't be hard, and 2) I might get to fly more!

In that case, a commercial would be a good idea since you will need it anyway to get a CFI. You would probably do well as a CFI since you enjoy teaching and you have an enthusiasm for the subject!

 

[Henning]

That's really cool.

Here's my second landing in a year and a half, it doesn't get easier than this:

 

[Henning]

Given your ag experience I assume you have a cmml rating yourself but when's the last time you used it? If you're not flying for hire anymore, you could reduce your enforcement exposure by voluntarily relinquishing that rating/privilege.

I've had commercial ratings (ASEL, AMEL, ASES) for years but I don't recall anyone ever paying me to fly, Chances are pretty good that I won't see that in the future either but I feel no concerns over my extended exposure enforcement wise. The rating did come in handy for a few years when the company I was working for concluded that their liability insurance would cover an accident when I was flying on company business as long as I had a commercial or higher rating and I do still harbor the fantasy of becoming a CFI in my old age.

Last time I used it was a month or so ago and I may use it today or tomorrow because it's one of the trades I market, IOW, I got a CP because I intended to work my license from lesson one.

As I said, I'm not against it, I just think as I stated before, for a person without commercial aspirations and limited annual flying, there are more productive and enjoyable ways to spend one's aviation time and money is all. The FAA issue is not an issue for me, I'm not scared of getting in trouble, lol, I live there already.

 

[gprellwitz]

When I think of all the flying opportunities I would have missed if I had not gotten my comm certificate, I really have to grit my teeth reading the "advice" above. I have been lucky in bumping into some great situations, but had I not had comm & AMEL on that piece of plastic I would not have been able to take advantage of them.

Use aviation to open doors not fear of the Feds to close them.

I think Kent would say the same thing after his experiences!

I'm not scared of getting in trouble, lol, I live there already.

I think that should be in your Sig line!

 

[wsuffa]

And I'm seeing that renters insurance tends to be higher for CP.

The CFI was one of my future goals for two reasons: 1) I have 25 years of teaching an applied skill and 15 years of college teaching, so that part shouldn't be hard, and 2) I might get to fly more!

That's odd.... No reason insurance should be any higher. If anything, it should go down. IIRC, mines earned me a couple of hundred dollars a year in reduction (owned plane)

 

[Henning]

That's odd.... No reason insurance should be any higher. If anything, it should go down. IIRC, mines earned me a couple of hundred dollars a year in reduction (owned plane)

That was a few years back I take it, CP hasn't brought an insurance discount in a while now.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

And I'm seeing that renters insurance tends to be higher for CP.

I don't recall mine changing when i got a commercial rating. As far as I know, the non-owned policies of AOPA and Avemco both have one set of rates that apply to everyone (except those in Alaska and Hawaii) regardless of pilot experience.

I don't think either company's policy covers commercial operations. If you wanted that, i'm sure it would cost more(assuming they offer it). But that's a function of the operation not the rating.

 

[GCA319]

Last time I used it was a month or so ago and I may use it today or tomorrow because it's one of the trades I market, IOW, I got a CP because I intended to work my license from lesson one.

As I said, I'm not against it, I just think as I stated before, for a person without commercial aspirations and limited annual flying, there are more productive and enjoyable ways to spend one's aviation time and money is all. The FAA issue is not an issue for me, I'm not scared of getting in trouble, lol, I live there already.

Exactly. If I wasn't planning on doing this professionally, I would have spent my money/time on something like a Glider add-on or something along those lines instead of getting my Commercial.

 

[Henning]

Glider would be 100x's the benefit to Ben as CP at this point. Ben doesn't need CP until he's ready for CFI and that won't be until he knows flying like music and can handle a plane as well as he handles a cello.