Should I get an IR?

JohnAJohnson

JohnAJohnson

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JohnAJohnson
I've been toying with the idea of getting an instrument rating, have been flying a bit with a CFII friend, but I am on the fence. I enjoy it, but I must look at the ROI. To get the rating will require ~$4,000 (for fuel, CFII, DPE, and written test), another $5,000 to upgrade my GNS430 to a GNS430W, and another ~$4,500 in install ADS-B out.

If the Class 3 requirement gets dropped, I'll never do a medical again and that'll pretty much negate the IR rating. I am also 60 and would imagine I've got another 15 years tops in the cockpit.

I do, at best, two XCs a year and enjoy my VFR pancake/burger runs, racking up an average of 60 hours a year. So if half of those annual XCs is in IMC, I will use my IR 15 times before I quit flying. I do enjoy flying VFR and I suspect I would enjoy flying IFR on XCs, but mostly, I'm out here in the sticks doing my VFR burger runs.

My insurance is approximately $700 for a $60k hull and can't imagine it being much cheaper, even with an IR.

What am I failing to factor into the equation?
 
Based on all the data provided....
Only if you find the pursuit of the IR a fun challenge and the money is not a significant issue.
 
In my opinion, no, it is not worth pursuing in your case. In order to be safe and feel comfortable in the soup you would likely need to utilize it more frequently than you describe.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
What am I failing to factor into the equation?
Click to expand...

Perhaps the enjoyment of the challenge itself, and the satisfaction that comes from enhancing your skill set. It may not be worth the cost to you of course, but I'd at least consider it to be part of the equation. Other than that though - it certainly doesn't seem to make financial sense for you.
 
jordane93 said:
Any particular reason you want to upgrade your 430 to a 430W?
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I am very happy with the 430 now, but my logic is that WAAS will be needed for ADS-B Out in some fashion, and by going with the 430W I'll pick up LPV vs. just going with a dedicated WAAS GPS chip in an ADS-B box.
 
jhausch said:
Based on all the data provided....
Only if you find the pursuit of the IR a fun challenge and the money is not a significant issue.
Click to expand...

I know it would be a challenge, but for me, so is VFR flying :)

Money is available, but never for wasting.
 
FORANE said:
In my opinion, no, it is not worth pursuing in your case. In order to be safe and feel comfortable in the soup you would likely need to utilize it more frequently than you describe.
Click to expand...

That's my concern too.

kayoh190 said:
Perhaps the enjoyment of the challenge itself, and the satisfaction that comes from enhancing your skill set. It may not be worth the cost to you of course, but I'd at least consider it to be part of the equation. Other than that though - it certainly doesn't seem to make financial sense for you.
Click to expand...

CFII also says it'll enhance my flying a bunch even if I never file, but I just can't imagine it'll enhance it as much as the same amount spent on fuel while flying VFR.
 
Although it would be helpful, you don't have to upgrade your 430. IIRC, I don't even think you have to be ADS-B compliant. My local airport has an ILS and is class E. I'm sure there are other airports that are similar.

As far as insurance, my insurance carrier gave a 5% discount. It would take decades to make a ROI. Personally, I did it to give me more flexibility for my type of flying.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I am very happy with the 430 now, but my logic is that WAAS will be needed for ADS-B Out in some fashion, and by going with the 430W I'll pick up LPV vs. just going with a dedicated WAAS GPS chip in an ADS-B box.
Click to expand...
You don't need WAAS. You can still shoot GPS approaches just not LPV approaches. That will save you a bunch of money not doing the upgrade.
 
$13,500 is a glider add on and a glider. Go have fun. There is excessive cultishness around the IR ignore them, if you don't have a compelling need or desire for the IR skip it.
 
I think you really have to want it. It is a good feeling having it, even better feeling to be a member of this cult Greg speaks of. It is more to deal with on an IFR flight than just flying VFR.
 
If I were you, John, I would skip the IR. You have to fly quite a bit to remain proficient and comfortable with the IR skills, and the majority of the time you can go VFR. For burger runs it would not be worth the trouble. For you XC's, it would, but if you have been going VFR without any problems, that should pretty much be evidence enough. As others have said, spend the money on an aerobatic course :).
 
On the other hand, I spent the money to get mine, and I really do, in a perverse way, enjoy having it. Maybe I should retract my previous post :). (Not much help, I know).
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I've been toying with the idea of getting an instrument rating, have been flying a bit with a CFII friend, but I am on the fence. I enjoy it, but I must look at the ROI. To get the rating will require ~$4,000 (for fuel, CFII, DPE, and written test), another $5,000 to upgrade my GNS430 to a GNS430W, and another ~$4,500 in install ADS-B out.

If the Class 3 requirement gets dropped, I'll never do a medical again and that'll pretty much negate the IR rating. I am also 60 and would imagine I've got another 15 years tops in the cockpit.

I do, at best, two XCs a year and enjoy my VFR pancake/burger runs, racking up an average of 60 hours a year. So if half of those annual XCs is in IMC, I will use my IR 15 times before I quit flying. I do enjoy flying VFR and I suspect I would enjoy flying IFR on XCs, but mostly, I'm out here in the sticks doing my VFR burger runs.

My insurance is approximately $700 for a $60k hull and can't imagine it being much cheaper, even with an IR.

What am I failing to factor into the equation?
Click to expand...

You don't need WAAS or ADSB for IFR.
For the WAAS you're looking $3k min right now, presuming all your other goodies play nice with the WAAS. LPVs are great, and you'll see more and more, however for training if you can shoot an ILS you can shoot a LPV.
ZERO reason you need to do the upgrade now.

If you think you would use your IFR ticket a lot, get it.

If not, it's more likely to get you to a place where you're letting your new IFR rating write checks your currency & skills can't cash.
 
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JohnAJohnson said:
If the Class 3 requirement gets dropped, I'll never do a medical again and that'll pretty much negate the IR rating. I am also 60 and would imagine I've got another 15 years tops in the cockpit.
Click to expand...
My pal Charlie turns 90 next week, and he's still got his medical.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I've been toying with the idea of getting an instrument rating, have been flying a bit with a CFII friend, but I am on the fence. I enjoy it, but I must look at the ROI. To get the rating will require ~$4,000 (for fuel, CFII, DPE, and written test), another $5,000 to upgrade my GNS430 to a GNS430W, and another ~$4,500 in install ADS-B out.

If the Class 3 requirement gets dropped, I'll never do a medical again and that'll pretty much negate the IR rating. I am also 60 and would imagine I've got another 15 years tops in the cockpit.

I do, at best, two XCs a year and enjoy my VFR pancake/burger runs, racking up an average of 60 hours a year. So if half of those annual XCs is in IMC, I will use my IR 15 times before I quit flying. I do enjoy flying VFR and I suspect I would enjoy flying IFR on XCs, but mostly, I'm out here in the sticks doing my VFR burger runs.

My insurance is approximately $700 for a $60k hull and can't imagine it being much cheaper, even with an IR.

What am I failing to factor into the equation?
Click to expand...
You can't really count the cost to upgrade the 430 to "W" or installing ADS-B out against the instrument rating. IFR or VFR you'll need ADS-B out with a WAAS position source by 2020 to fly in airspace that currently requires a mode C transponder.
 
My pal Charlie turns 90 next week, and he's still got his medical.
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That's just pretty great, Ron. I hope I stay that healthy!
 
To get the rating is something you can only answer. It is a personal journey. I flew to Columbia Mo yesterday to visit my son. Flew with my CFII in a Corrus with the same avionics that is in the plane I train in- except the 430 were non WAAS. The issue we had was the MDA. Fortunately on way back we were flying in VFR conditions so it didn't matter. Landing at Columbia, we had to use the ILS on rwy 2 as the clouds were 200 feet off the deck.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I've been toying with the idea of getting an instrument rating, have been flying a bit with a CFII friend, but I am on the fence. I enjoy it, but I must look at the ROI. To get the rating will require ~$4,000 (for fuel, CFII, DPE, and written test), another $5,000 to upgrade my GNS430 to a GNS430W, and another ~$4,500 in install ADS-B out.

If the Class 3 requirement gets dropped, I'll never do a medical again and that'll pretty much negate the IR rating. I am also 60 and would imagine I've got another 15 years tops in the cockpit.

I do, at best, two XCs a year and enjoy my VFR pancake/burger runs, racking up an average of 60 hours a year. So if half of those annual XCs is in IMC, I will use my IR 15 times before I quit flying. I do enjoy flying VFR and I suspect I would enjoy flying IFR on XCs, but mostly, I'm out here in the sticks doing my VFR burger runs.

My insurance is approximately $700 for a $60k hull and can't imagine it being much cheaper, even with an IR.

What am I failing to factor into the equation?
Click to expand...

If you want to do it for the challenge of learning a new skill and occupying free time with studying and practicing then yes absolutely, its like going back to school.

If you want to justify it for flying the missions you described then it doesn't make sense.

My 2 cents = you really don't need the WAAS and ADS-B to safety fly ifr, probably shouldn't be shooting LPV approaches at minimum and threading weather (wouldnt do that with ADSB anyway) if you only are going to use it twice a year. $1500 on an ipad (if you dont already have one) with stratus will get you quite a bit of bang for the buck and get you ADSB weather and all the approach charts plus a great study tool. :wink2:
 
peerlesscowboy said:
You can't really count the cost to upgrade the 430 to "W" or installing ADS-B out against the instrument rating. IFR or VFR you'll need ADS-B out with a WAAS position source by 2020 to fly in airspace that currently requires a mode C transponder.
Click to expand...

good point
 
Thanks for the insight all. One other question... Reason I considered ADS-B as necessary when flying IFR (starting 2020)... I was under the impression that any flight requiring a transponder today will require ADS-B Out starting in 2020. Can you fly enroute IFR today without a transponder and will you be able to fly enroute IFR starting in 2020 without ADS-B Out?

Otherwise, starting in 2020 and flying VFR, I can easily avoid B and C airports, I can give up FF, stay below 10,000' and out of Class A. No ADS-B necessary.
 
You can't fly IFR enroute without a transponder. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you mentioned all the 2020 inclusion criteria for mode s and ADS-B.

I'd like to know about flight following. Can you get it in 2020 with mode C?
 
Six years is forever in the Avionics world. I see no point in being an early adopter. Just ask anybody who sunk money into GDL90's.
 
It's up to you as to whether or not to get the IR. Looks at your flying and ask yourself if you would gain any additional utility from it. I got mine in 2011 and have needed it exactly once, to get down through a layer over western Washington. Might have been able to come down the Columbia River gorge VFR and arrive under the clouds, but getting through that layer was exactly why I got the rating. If the weather says I'm going to have to flog my way all the way across the state in the clag I'll drive. That's too much like work to me. And I know my wife would not enjoy it.

Was it worth it to me? Absolutely. YMMV.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Thanks for the insight all. One other question... Reason I considered ADS-B as necessary when flying IFR (starting 2020)... I was under the impression that any flight requiring a transponder today will require ADS-B Out starting in 2020.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much true. If you compare the ADS-B-out-required areas in 91.225 with the transponder-required areas in 91.215, they are pretty much identical.
Can you fly enroute IFR today without a transponder
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Generally yes, as long as you stay out of Class A airspace (and I don't think your plane will do any better getting to 18,000 MSL than mine), although it's more work for the controllers. And if you're going to or though Class B/C airspace, you may need to call ahead.

and will you be able to fly enroute IFR starting in 2020 without ADS-B Out?
Click to expand...
Yes, as long as you stay below 10,000 feet and out of B/C airspace.

Otherwise, starting in 2020 and flying VFR, I can easily avoid B and C airports, I can give up FF, stay below 10,000' and out of Class A. No ADS-B necessary.
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That is true.
 
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rbridges said:
You can't fly IFR enroute without a transponder.
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Not so, and I've done it several times when my transponder was on the fritz. A transponder is required only in the airspace specified in 91.215(b), and there's a lot of IFR enroute airspace not listed there. But even then, one can get advance permission to enter/depart B/C space without a transponder -- just not the DC SFRA.

I'd like to know about flight following. Can you get it in 2020 with mode C?
Click to expand...
I see no reason why not as long as you stay out of the airspace listed in 91.225(d).
 
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