Should I bother to submit my MED records?

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TempleOfMemories

Filing Flight Plan
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Bill
I had seen a psychiatrist from the age on 27 until I was 35 and took medication for depression, and ADD. I don't feel I have ADD, maybe just a few of the traits on the spectrum and for the last 3 or 4 years I have not taken any ADD or depression medication. I was never good with book work and I am a bad test taker and a day dreamer but out of boredom, academically I didn't fit in. I finally received my medical records and after reading the records, I am wondering if I should bother to pursue this? Obviously it has notes from my session, medications used, and my own self evaluations. On at least two or three of the self evaluations I circled YES for "I have thoughts of harming myself". I am in the process of pursuing a First Class certificate, I was approved for a loan for flight school but based on these records it seems I am only making things worse. I regret being honest on the FAA application and seeing a psychiatrist. I work around pilots and they tell me to try it, and some of them have said they had similar issues or knew people who went through the same thing. Several pilots told me always check NO on the form and if I had listened I would have had my Certificate, I passed the AME's exams but he wanted the records and does the FAA. I am almost 40 and found something I feel I would be good with and could have a career doing this. The sad thing is my records can set up a red flag. If anyone has an opinion please let me know.
 
1. do not ever lie on an FAA form either by omission or comission
2. based on your voluntary admission you have had thoughts of harming yourself, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and decide if you are willing to be responsible for the safety of other people
3. stop all further action until you speak to Dr Bruce Chien


aeromedicaldoc.com
 
@TempleOfMemories ....

1) Welocme to the PoA community!

2) based on what I read, am I correct that you have already seen an AME, applied for a first class medical, and have disclosed that you were diagnosed with ADD?
 
In addition to what Murphey said, I'll leave this here for @TempleOfMemories and others that might find this thread in google.

https://tinyurl.com/ame-consult

Essentially if you have ANY items in your medical history or law enforcement encounters that might cause the FAA to question your flying fitness, do a consultation visit with the AME first. Do not go for a live exam until the AME can assure you one billion percent that you will get your medical and provides proper counseling on what you need to do to make it happen on the first go.
 
This just reinforces the advice I give everyone who wants to fly...

Never... EVER... apply for a medical certificate of any class unless and until you know for a fact that you will pass. People are amazed at the things that will DQ them from getting even a third-class medical, and remove their options to fly (like Sport Pilot) for life.

If you haven't already applied (actually - either way), talk to Dr. Chien. If you have... best of luck to you.
 
Yes, Murphy is right. Nothing good will come out of lying or "omitting" things on your applications. When the would have found out (and these days, as Dr. B will tell you with the changes to the laws, they will find out), you'd not be facing "requests for information" but actions to revoke whatever certificates you had.

I can almost be sure you're looking at several thousand dollars of testing PLUS some evaluation from a certain kind of psychiatrist that you will pay to visit enough times for him to make an evaluation. Dr. B or one of the other fine docs here can tell you what your chances are and then you can evaluate if it is worth trying.

What is good is that the flight school did steer you to getting your medical before bilking you and the taxpayers (if this was a subsidized loan) out of money for training you'll never be able to use.

I can tell you that "you don't feel you had ADD" isn't going to cut it. If they claim you did, then you are going to have to prove that diagnosis in error.
 
@TempleOfMemories ... Ron's comment of the flight school sending you for the medical first is a bright thing on your grey day.

If the loan approval can remain unclaimed for a loooong time without penalty and hardship, don't claim it or sign any loan documents until you have your medical.

From your description of what is going on with you, the process of obtaining the additional information and evaluations the FAA will want is a very long process. You need to wait until medical clearance before you take on the Student loan debt.
 
@TempleOfMemories ....

Can you share with us what you desire to do with learning to fly?

Is this for yourself as a recreational private pilot?

Or are you desiring the professional track where you might be employed by an airline or corporate flight department?
 
Thank You everyone. It was actually pilots that told me to get the First Class first to make sure I was eligible for sure. I was truthful on the FAA application and I have had the letter from the FAA explaining they are unable to determine my eligibility since they don't have the records and I have decided not to pursue flying as a career. Back in November, I contacted an AME and told him my situation, he told me to get a letter from the Psych listing the meds I had taken, diagnosis and the psychs own evaluation. I set up the appointment, got the letter went in and seen him, he gave me an exam, I passed his examination and then he asked"do you have the letter?" I gave it to him he read it and said OK we need the records. I honestly feel he knew my situation was a waste but he still made $250.00 bucks off of me. When most in my situation are told to bring records I am sure they drop out and don't bother. I was fairly detailed in my e-mail when I contacted him and he replied instantly. I was aware that I may have to spend $$$ for psychiatric evaluations but based on the information in my file it's probably best not to go further with this. When I saw the AME he said he would hold off submitting the app with the FAA until I got my records but he still sent it in anyways. My own admission about thoughts of harming myself, I never attempted or planned anything but that basically ends it there.
 
AggieMike88 said:
@TempleOfMemories ....

Can you share with us what you desire to do with learning to fly?

Is this for yourself as a recreational private pilot?

Or are you desiring the professional track where you might be employed by an airline or corporate flight department?
Click to expand...

in the early 2000's when I was in my 20s I considered flying as a career but didn't pursue it. 9-11 just happened, the industry was in the crapper, the recession hit and they seemed to be more strict when it came to vision and other health issues, plus I didn't know anyone who could give me advice, just internet message boards. After getting hired in the airline industry I got a lot of advice and still so, thought I had a chance but that damn psychiatry era has put an end to it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
@TempleOfMemories ... Ron's comment of the flight school sending you for the medical first is a bright thing on your grey day.

If the loan approval can remain unclaimed for a loooong time without penalty and hardship, don't claim it or sign any loan documents until you have your medical.

From your description of what is going on with you, the process of obtaining the additional information and evaluations the FAA will want is a very long process. You need to wait until medical clearance before you take on the Student loan debt.
Click to expand...
I didn't sign anything, was approved but never put my signature on it.
 
I can totally respect your decision to not go any further. However, as someone who had a different but also screwy case, I'd advise that Dr. Chein's fee was quite literally the cheapest part of my medical. It really might be worth it for you to have a consult (via internet/email/fax) with him. He would review your case, records, test results and if he tells you "Nope, no way it's going to ever happen" at least you can be sure you really never had a chance. If not he can lay out exactly what you would need to do (HIMS Psych eval, etc) and you'd at least have a roadmap and rough expenses.
 
jbrinker said:
I can totally respect your decision to not go any further. However, as someone who had a different but also screwy case, I'd advise that Dr. Chein's fee was quite literally the cheapest part of my medical. It really might be worth it for you to have a consult (via internet/email/fax) with him. He would review your case, records, test results and if he tells you "Nope, no way it's going to ever happen" at least you can be sure you really never had a chance. If not he can lay out exactly what you would need to do (HIMS Psych eval, etc) and you'd at least have a roadmap and rough expenses.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: This is the best advice. Unless, of course, you've already decided you don't want to pursue this, especially if partly for other reasons... but otherwise, what do you have to lose?
 
TempleOfMemories said:
For me it's a lost cause, I'd like to but I am screwed. I've already pumped money into pursuing this and I am not going any further.
Click to expand...

So if it's a lost cause, stop talking about it and move on, knock off the pity party, get a boat. But I think you still want to do this, if you do, contact Dr B, tell him what's up, with out all the "I'm screwed" BS and woe be to me stuff, that will get you no where.

As far as the pumped money into this, $250 is nothing in aviation, it's a long flight's worth of gas, one way in some planes. Dr. B will give you an idea of what it will cost to pursue and what it will take and if it's worth trying as in what your chances are if everything tests out ok and you are honest with him. His fee is very reasonable and you will have solid base on which to make your decision.
 
TempleOfMemories said:
I had seen a psychiatrist from the age on 27 until I was 35 and took medication for depression, and ADD. I don't feel I have ADD, maybe just a few of the traits on the spectrum and for the last 3 or 4 years I have not taken any ADD or depression medication. I was never good with book work and I am a bad test taker and a day dreamer but out of boredom, academically I didn't fit in. I finally received my medical records and after reading the records, I am wondering if I should bother to pursue this? Obviously it has notes from my session, medications used, and my own self evaluations. On at least two or three of the self evaluations I circled YES for "I have thoughts of harming myself". I am in the process of pursuing a First Class certificate, I was approved for a loan for flight school but based on these records it seems I am only making things worse. I regret being honest on the FAA application and seeing a psychiatrist. I work around pilots and they tell me to try it, and some of them have said they had similar issues or knew people who went through the same thing. Several pilots told me always check NO on the form and if I had listened I would have had my Certificate, I passed the AME's exams but he wanted the records and does the FAA. I am almost 40 and found something I feel I would be good with and could have a career doing this. The sad thing is my records can set up a red flag. If anyone has an opinion please let me know.
Click to expand...

You have a lot of issues in your medical history and each of those issues are disqualifying. It is going to be impossible or very expensive for you to obtain a medical certificate. I suggest you do not invest any money in flight training until you sit down with an AME to get an estimate on what the FAA is going to require for a special issuance.
 
TempleOfMemories said:
I had seen a psychiatrist from the age on 27 until I was 35 and took medication for depression, and ADD. I don't feel I have ADD, maybe just a few of the traits on the spectrum and for the last 3 or 4 years I have not taken any ADD or depression medication. I was never good with book work and I am a bad test taker and a day dreamer but out of boredom, academically I didn't fit in. I finally received my medical records and after reading the records, I am wondering if I should bother to pursue this? Obviously it has notes from my session, medications used, and my own self evaluations. On at least two or three of the self evaluations I circled YES for "I have thoughts of harming myself". I am in the process of pursuing a First Class certificate, I was approved for a loan for flight school but based on these records it seems I am only making things worse. I regret being honest on the FAA application and seeing a psychiatrist. I work around pilots and they tell me to try it, and some of them have said they had similar issues or knew people who went through the same thing. Several pilots told me always check NO on the form and if I had listened I would have had my Certificate, I passed the AME's exams but he wanted the records and does the FAA. I am almost 40 and found something I feel I would be good with and could have a career doing this. The sad thing is my records can set up a red flag. If anyone has an opinion please let me know.
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I just read the first sentence. No is the answer.
 
Ultralights are the wild west. The only statement in part 103 is "don't be a hazard to others."

91.17 bars piloting with any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety (THIS applies to both ultralights and aircraft).
61.53 bars flying "while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." (This applies to anything you need a pilot certificate for: gliders, balloons, etc...).

Gliders used to require a pilot self-certification but that disappeared decades ago.
 
flyingron said:
Ultralights are the wild west. The only statement in part 103 is "don't be a hazard to others."

91.17 bars piloting with any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety (THIS applies to both ultralights and aircraft).
61.53 bars flying "while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." (This applies to anything you need a pilot certificate for: gliders, balloons, etc...).

Gliders used to require a pilot self-certification but that disappeared decades ago.
Click to expand...
Yes, I was referring to gliders. The point is, if the OP doesn't submit, he will receive a denial letter. According to Bruce, that letter will include a clause saying he is unqualified to operate ANY aircraft, and he will then have "reason to know", as per 61.53.

Ultralights seem to be a gray area. I.e., how can you be sure you aren't being a hazard to others if you have "reason to know" you cannot operate an aircraft in a safe manner? :dunno:
 
azure said:
Ultralights seem to be a gray area. I.e., how can you be sure you aren't being a hazard to others if you have "reason to know" you cannot operate an aircraft in a safe manner? :dunno:
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Don't fly near people?
 
azure said:
Yes, I was referring to gliders. The point is, if the OP doesn't submit, he will receive a denial letter. According to Bruce, that letter will include a clause saying he is unqualified to operate ANY aircraft, and he will then have "reason to know", as per 61.53.

Ultralights seem to be a gray area. I.e., how can you be sure you aren't being a hazard to others if you have "reason to know" you cannot operate an aircraft in a safe manner? :dunno:
Click to expand...
Maybe a counter to "reason to know" that you can't operate safely would be reason to know that you can. It seems like there must be some process that could defensibly rebut the presumption, depending on the facts. :dunno:
 
Palmpilot said:
Maybe a counter to "reason to know" that you can't operate safely would be reason to know that you can. It seems like there must be some process that could defensibly rebut the presumption, depending on the facts. :dunno:
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Agreed - and since the operative word there is "defensibly", I think that process would be going through the tests the FAA requires to rebut the diagnosis(es) and qualify for special issuance. Today it seems most people who can prove they can operate safely can eventually qualify for SI - at least for a 3rd class. I'm not sure what that process would entail in the OP's case though, since he applied for a 1st class.
 
azure said:
Agreed - and since the operative word there is "defensibly", I think that process would be going through the tests the FAA requires to rebut the diagnosis(es) and qualify for special issuance....
Click to expand...
That would be one way. I'm not knowledgeable enough about legal matters, nor is my crystal ball good enough, to know whether it's the only way, for the types of flying that don't require medical certificates. I think it's at least arguable that if a person took a genuinely responsible approach to dealing with the problem, then measures less drastic than what the FAA requires for medical certificates might turn out to be defensible. For operations that don't require a medical certificate, it seems to me that whether a person's alcohol problem has actually been dealt with ought to be more important than whether the pilot can prove it to the FAA.
 
Palmpilot said:
That would be one way. I'm not knowledgeable enough about legal matters, nor is my crystal ball good enough, to know whether it's the only way, for the types of flying that don't require medical certificates. I think it's at least arguable that if a person took a genuinely responsible approach to dealing with the problem, then measures less drastic than what the FAA requires for medical certificates might turn out to be defensible. For operations that don't require a medical certificate, it seems to me that whether a person's alcohol problem has actually been dealt with ought to be more important than whether the pilot can prove it to the FAA.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure whether it's the only way that would pass legal muster, either. But as a practical matter, for someone who wants to fly legally, it would seem to be the only reasonable way to go at this time. :(

And while what I wrote about SI qualification above is true for most medical conditions, I do wonder whether it's true in the case of substance abuse and addiction. Particularly after reading the Atlantic article linked in the other thread, I suspect there may well be pilots who have conquered alcohol addiction using an evidence-based treatment, who may even drink occasionally now but are no longer dependent or abusing, but who can't get that SI because they didn't follow the FAA-required program of total abstinence.
 
azure said:
I'm not sure whether it's the only way that would pass legal muster, either. But as a practical matter, for someone who wants to fly legally, it would seem to be the only reasonable way to go at this time. :(
Click to expand...
In order to take practical matters into account, I think one would need to see what the enforcement history is with regard to balloon, glider, sport, and ultralight pilots. For example, how has a single DUI, with no repeat incidents, been handled in the past with such pilots? The medical rules that apply to them have been in effect for a long time, and it would be interesting to know whether simply dealing effectively with the underlying alcohol problem, without FAA involvement, has been sufficient to keep the involved pilots out of further trouble.
 
Palmpilot said:
In order to take practical matters into account, I think one would need to see what the enforcement history is with regard to balloon, glider, sport, and ultralight pilots. For example, how has a single DUI, with no repeat incidents, been handled in the past with such pilots?
Click to expand...

...don't you remember this one from less than two years ago?

The pilot of a hot-air balloon that crashed last summer in Texas, killing himself and 15 sightseeing passengers, had taken a cocktail of prohibited drugs before liftoff including the opiate painkiller oxycodone, according to government documents.

Alfred "Skip" Nichols was able to continue flying people for hire in spite of being convicted five times for driving while intoxicated and three times for drug offenses. The incident revealed lax regulations on balloon operators and a regulatory loophole that made it difficult to take enforcement action against him, according to documents prepared for a National Transportation Safety Board hearing.
 
Yep, such is the folly of the current medical system. We spend too much time worrying about the recreational pilot and not enough worrying about those who are providing commercial carriage.
 
timwinters said:
...don't you remember this one from less than two years ago?

The pilot of a hot-air balloon that crashed last summer in Texas, killing himself and 15 sightseeing passengers, had taken a cocktail of prohibited drugs before liftoff including the opiate painkiller oxycodone, according to government documents.

Alfred "Skip" Nichols was able to continue flying people for hire in spite of being convicted five times for driving while intoxicated and three times for drug offenses. The incident revealed lax regulations on balloon operators and a regulatory loophole that made it difficult to take enforcement action against him, according to documents prepared for a National Transportation Safety Board hearing.
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Does anyone happen to know if he made the required reports of the motor vehicle actions against him?

What I'm particularly interested in is what happens in practice to pilots who are not required to have medical certificates, if they have a single reportable event, make the required report, and then clean up their act, either on their own or with whatever professional help they may engage.
 
Palmpilot said:
What I'm particularly interested in is what happens in practice to pilots who are not required to have medical certificates, if they have a single reportable event, make the required report, and then clean up their act, either on their own or with whatever professional help they may engage.
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Good questions and I'd like to know the answer too. I'm not even sure what action the FAA takes when such pilots report the event, assuming they do. Under BasicMed, of course, they would then be required to obtain the one-time SI. But for pilots exercising only sport pilot privileges, glider pilots, etc., I have no idea. I would not be surprised to hear of emergency certificate revocation if the FAA got wind that they were flying again, but I couldn't cite any case in point.
 
azure said:
Good questions and I'd like to know the answer too. I'm not even sure what action the FAA takes when such pilots report the event, assuming they do. Under BasicMed, of course, they would then be required to obtain the one-time SI.
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68.9 requires the SI for substance dependence within the past two years, so it looks like the SI requirement is not in perpetuity for someone who sobers up and stays sober. I still wouldn't want to have to go back to sport pilot privileges for two years!

But for pilots exercising only sport pilot privileges, glider pilots, etc., I have no idea. I would not be surprised to hear of emergency certificate revocation if the FAA got wind that they were flying again, but I couldn't cite any case in point.
Click to expand...

I would hope that such an extreme sanction for a glider, balloon, or sport pilot would be reserved for repeat offenders, or where there was some other evidence of continued substance abuse. Doing otherwise would seem to be an example of government overreach, given the way regulations are currently written.
 
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Palmpilot said:
68.9 requires the SI for substance dependence within the past two years, so it looks like the SI requirement is not in perpetuity for someone who sobers up and stays sober. I still wouldn't want to have to go back to sport pilot privileges for two years!
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Hmm, I didn't know it was limited to two years. Confirmed! Good to know, thanks. (And yes, I would sure be unhappy to be limited to sport pilot privileges for any length of time! But since I rarely drink, and never drink and then drive, that's not likely to be a problem.)
I would hope that such an extreme sanction for a glider, balloon, or sport pilot would be reserved for repeat offenders, or where there was some other evidence of continued substance abuse. Doing otherwise would seem to be an example of government overreach, given the way regulations are currently written.
Click to expand...
Agreed - but it still wouldn't surprise me if they did it.
 
azure said:
...And yes, I would sure be unhappy to be limited to sport pilot privileges for any length of time!...
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My two years of exercising sport pilot privileges turned out to be WAY more fun than I expected, but I'm glad to have most of those limitations lifted!
 
flyingron said:
Yep, such is the folly of the current medical system. We spend too much time worrying about the recreational pilot and not enough worrying about those who are providing commercial carriage.
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You have NO IDEA how carefully inspected revenue pilots are....
 
bbchien said:
You have NO IDEA how carefully inspected revenue pilots are....
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For the class I's I'd beleive it, but that's not the extent of the "revenue" pilots. Some aren't required to hold medicals at all (but that is likely to be changing after the last multiple-fatality).
 
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flyingron said:
For the class I's I'd beleive it, but that's not the extent of the "revenue" pilots. Some aren't required to hold medicals at all (but that is likely to be changing after the last multiple-fatality).
Click to expand...
regulation of commercial balloon operators is on the agency agenda....
 
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