short field landings and takeoffs

Ron, same deal with Marlboro (9B1)? 1680' with 60' trees at the usual approach end. I'm going to miss going back in there... :(
 
From Chapter 8, “Approaches and Landings” in The Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA H-8083-3a)

Short-Field Approach and Landing

…After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure may be gradually relaxed to place normal weight on the nose wheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane should be allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the air plane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities...

Upon touchdown, the airplane should be held in this positive pitch attitude as long as the elevators remain effective. This will provide aerodynamic braking to assist in deceleration. Immediately upon touchdown, and closing the throttle, appropriate braking should be applied to minimize the after-landing roll. The airplane should be stopped within the shortest possible distance consistent with safety and controllability. If the proper approach speed has been maintained, resulting in minimum float during the roundout, and the touchdown made at minimum control speed, minimum braking will be required.

Common errors in the performance of short-field approaches and landings are:



  • Failure to allow enough room on final to set up the approach, necessitating an overly steep approach and high sink rate.
  • Unstabilized approach.
  • Undue delay in initiating glidepath corrections.
  • Too low an airspeed on final resulting in inability to flare properly and landing hard.
  • Too high an airspeed resulting in floating on roundout.
  • Prematurely reducing power to idle on roundout resulting in hard landing.
  • Touchdown with excessive airspeed.
  • Excessive and/or unnecessary braking after touchdown.
  • Failure to maintain directional control.
From Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (FAA-S-8081-14A)

F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD APPROACH (CONFINED AREA—ASES)
AND LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:

  1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confinedarea ASES) approach and landing.
  2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area (ASES).
  3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, andselects the most suitable touchdown point.
  4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
  5. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended approach airspeed, or in its absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots,with wind gust factor applied.
  6. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during theroundout and touchdown.
  7. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surfaceconditions (ASES).
  8. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed (ASEL).
  9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified point, with no side drift, minimum float and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway center/landingpath.
  10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughoutthe approach and landing sequence.
  11. Applies brakes, (ASEL) or elevator control (ASEs), as necessary, to stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.
  12. Completes the appropriate checklist.
From various aircraft information manuals:

Cherokee Arrow III (Dec. 21, 1976), p. 4-15
Normally, the best technique for short and slow landings is to use full flap and enough power to maintain the desired airspeed and approach path...After ground contact hold the nose wheel off as long as possible. As the airplane slows down, gently lower the nose and apply the brakes. Braking is most effective when flaps are raised and back pressure is applied to the control wheel, putting most of the aircraft weight on the main wheels....

​
Piper Seminole (March 4, 1989), p. 4-24
Maximum braking after touchdown is achieved by retracting the flaps, applying back pressure to the wheel and applying pressure on the brakes. However, unless extra braking is needed or unless a strong crosswind or gusy air condition exists, it is best to wait until turning off the runway to retract the flaps....
​
Piper Cadet (Warrior)
[See the earlier quote from the Arrow manual.]
​
Cessna 182 (December 1981), p. 4-21
For a short field landing, make a power-off approach at 61 KIAS with full flaps and land on the main wheels first. Immediately after touchdown, lower the nose gear to the ground and apply heavy braking as required. For maximum brake effectiveness after all three wheels are on the ground, retract the flaps, hold full nose up elevator and apply maximum possible brake pressure without sliding the tires.
​
Cessna 172P (May 30, 1980), p. 4-20
[See quote for the C182]
​
Finally, the procedures at the flight school where I teach prohibit operating any controls in a complex airplane (flaps, lights, transponder, radios, etc.) after landing until the airplane is clear of the runway and stopped.
 
In a Warrior, I was taught to retract the flaps as soon as all 3 wheels are down. On the other hand, that flap handle is hard to mistake.
 
Damn, Bruce -- you do some RESEARCH. There is no question that raising the flaps puts more weight on the wheels, and from a purely theoretical standpoint, that will shorten the ground roll. However, the safety considerations voiced in the AFH should override those considerations, especially in conjunction with that phrase in the PTS about "stop[ing] in the shortest distance consistent with safety." [emphasis added]

BTW, my concern with grabbing the J-bar is that it takes you away from controlling the airplane -- reaching for it and moving it moves your upper body and that can translate into unintended flight control inputs which can be an issue on gusty days. And, as always, if you need the flaps up to stop on the available runway, that runway is too short to take off again.
 
Don't forget altitude. Come out to Colorado and see how much there is to spare with 2400'. DA right now is 6400' at KFNL (5016'), will go over 7,000 before the day is over.

Just got back from a trip to eastern Iowa, KCWI (701', DA now 1800'). Thought I was in a different plane.

Eric
 
woodstock said:
since we lose half of our runway in about 2 weeks, we are going to practice short field landings and takeoffs tonight. we still will have at least 2400 feet or so, but it's good practice anyway.
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Actually now I do remember a time when flap retraction would have made the saving difference in a LDG over-run by a C172 driver off of 1700 foot wet, public use airport. He left flaps deployed and just squeaked to the lip of the runway threshold (picture Wil E. Coyote here...) tetered & fell down the 45 degree bank !

But, the C172 engine exhaust stack pointing down caught a stump just right and held the plane from the seawater 100' below until it was towed back by the tailhook or something.

There's really no substitute for operating any aircraft the way it was intended. Use flaps when you need 'em and use the gear retraction lever when you need that. Without proper forethought applied in aviation, you will get into trouble, just as in most things.

Habits are dangerous when they're specific and you change your environment, because we are still really required to think in aviation, not just do.
 
wangmyers said:
Vx also changes with density altitude, by the way.
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Even though my 68 owners manual show Vx unchanged (94 mph) from SL to 16,000, I suspect it really does change some. But does it really change enough in any of our type aircraft to matter?

Eric
 
Joe Williams said:
But teaching them to leave the flaps alone on the landing roll IS good technique. I see no sense in teaching bad technique simply to prepare students for the foibles and oddities of a plane they may never fly. If it's something they need to know for a particular plane, they can learn it when they need it.
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Some of the Cessna POH's call for flap retraction. If it didn't matter 100% of the time you suppose they'd have it in the POH? Sooner or later a pilot will blow a landing, coming in a bit hot and/or a bit long. Most places that is a survivable mistake. Some places it is fatal and you need to stop in less space than you will have for take-off. Yes, despite some of the sage advice in this thread there are times when the landing distance really is the more critical number. Personally, I think it would be a poor CFI who wouldn't anticipate such an event and teach how to best deal with it.

YMMV, you are welcome to whatever opinion you choose, but if the POH calls for it I will teach it.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Some of the Cessna POH's call for flap retraction. If it didn't matter 100% of the time you suppose they'd have it in the POH? Sooner or later a pilot will blow a landing, coming in a bit hot and/or a bit long. Most places that is a survivable mistake. Some places it is fatal and you need to stop in less space than you will have for take-off. Yes, despite some of the sage advice in this thread there are times when the landing distance really is the more critical number. Personally, I think it would be a poor CFI who wouldn't anticipate such an event and teach how to best deal with it.

YMMV, you are welcome to whatever opinion you choose, but if the POH calls for it I will teach it.
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DITTO; plus :

In Aviation, more so than in life, consider the positive benefits of maximum thinking.

When in aviation scenarios demanding maximum performance, use maximum thinking or temporarily go to less demanding venues if possible.
 
ejensen said:
Even though my 68 owners manual show Vx unchanged (94 mph) from SL to 16,000, I suspect it really does change some. But does it really change enough in any of our type aircraft to matter?
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Vx and Vy meet at the aircraft's absolute ceiling.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Use flaps when you need 'em and use the gear retraction lever when you need that.
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Sure, if you really want to land as short as possible, retract the gear upon or just before touchdown.:D
 
lancefisher said:
Sure, if you really want to land as short as possible, retract the gear upon or just before touchdown.:D
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I've heard it suggested that for emergency landings off field, in rough terrain, to retract gear in RGs...
 
lancefisher said:
Vx and Vy meet at the aircraft's absolute ceiling.
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Yeah, but the question was Vx changing with altitude. Vy changes quite a bit with altitude and I adjust for that. Does Vx every change enough to worry about? From my owner's manual - Vx - 94 mph SL-16,000; Vy = 113-96 mph.

Eric
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I've heard it suggested that for emergency landings off field, in rough terrain, to retract gear in RGs...
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I've read and heard a number of debates about whether it's best to lower the gear and let them absorb some energy as they are ripped off, or to leave them up and let the belly suck it up.
 
Joe Williams said:
I've read and heard a number of debates about whether it's best to lower the gear and let them absorb some energy as they are ripped off, or to leave them up and let the belly suck it up.
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Read and heed the POH/AFM, as the best solution is design-dependent and thus varies from type to type.
 
Joe Williams said:
I've read and heard a number of debates about whether it's best to lower the gear and let them absorb some energy as they are ripped off, or to leave them up and let the belly suck it up.
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Yeah it's hard to say in every case.

I went down once in a T182RG & put the gear down 'cause it was a field & I was gonna land it just fine but, then had to swerve in ground effect last second to avoid little electric wires and blind traffic on a knoll, so ended up in a swill full of tangly weeds 2 feet deep that snapped the nosewheel off.
 
Ron Levy said:
Read and heed the POH/AFM, as the best solution is design-dependent and thus varies from type to type.
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Makes me wonder how much testing they actually did on that. Let's see is the corn knee high or up the elephant's eye.:)

Eric
 
ejensen said:
Yeah, but the question was Vx changing with altitude. Vy changes quite a bit with altitude and I adjust for that. Does Vx every change enough to worry about? From my owner's manual - Vx - 94 mph SL-16,000; Vy = 113-96 mph.

Eric
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I'm not positive, but I do believe that both Vx and Vy change with weight and altitude. Trying to go through the reasoning in my head to confirm that.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Actually now I do remember a time when flap retraction would have made the saving difference in a LDG over-run by a C172 driver off of 1700 foot wet, public use airport. He left flaps deployed and just squeaked to the lip of the runway threshold (picture Wil E. Coyote here...) tetered & fell down the 45 degree bank !
Click to expand...

When the end of the runway starts looking lifesize, steer for the weeds. Most public use airports have a clear zone on the sides of the runway that you can put at least one wheel if not the entire plane in with minimal or no damage.
 
ejensen said:
Yeah, but the question was Vx changing with altitude. Vy changes quite a bit with altitude and I adjust for that. Does Vx every change enough to worry about? From my owner's manual - Vx - 94 mph SL-16,000; Vy = 113-96 mph.
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According to what I've read, in a normally aspirated piston engined airplane, Vx increases a bit less than 1% per 1000 ft DA and Vy decreases a bit more than 1% per 1000 ft DA in terms of CAS. WRT TAS, they both climb with altitude, but Vy(TAS) climbs more slowly than TAS vs CAS. This does vary somewhat with the airplane as it involves the airplane's drag/velocity relationship, the engine's available power vs DA, and the efficency curve of the prop, but I suspect that your owners manual is somewhat inaccurate.
 
Joe Williams said:
I've read and heard a number of debates about whether it's best to lower the gear and let them absorb some energy as they are ripped off, or to leave them up and let the belly suck it up.
Click to expand...

Part of the problem here is that this isn't something that gets much testing so much of the "answer" comes from theory. Plus there are a lot of variables when it comes to the type of terrain and firmness of the surface. Finally you'd have to consider the potential for a failure of the landing gear vs obstacles to precipitate a fuel tank rupture.

There's no question that the landing gear would be able to absorb a significant portion of the vertical forces, but in most emergency landings the vertical forces can be kept minimal as long as you don't stall or hit something solid enough to stop the plane from flying while airborne.

On fairly firm ground, the landing gear should allow much greater directional control and thus enhance your ability to avoid major obstacles with the cabin. If the ground is soft enough or there is a lot of debris (Dr. Chein says beans are bad) having the plane supported by the gear may result in a cartwheel or forward flip, both of which are likely to be less survivable than a slide across the ground on the belly.

Bottom line is you place your bets and take your chances either way.
 
Ron Levy said:
Damn, Bruce -- you do some RESEARCH. There is no question that raising the flaps puts more weight on the wheels, and from a purely theoretical standpoint, that will shorten the ground roll. However, the safety considerations voiced in the AFH should override those considerations, especially in conjunction with that phrase in the PTS about "stop[ing] in the shortest distance consistent with safety." [emphasis added]

BTW, my concern with grabbing the J-bar is that it takes you away from controlling the airplane -- reaching for it and moving it moves your upper body and that can translate into unintended flight control inputs which can be an issue on gusty days. And, as always, if you need the flaps up to stop on the available runway, that runway is too short to take off again.
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And that be the truth. It's judgement here, again, not technical prowess. It's judgement, not prowess...it's judgement, not prowess....why the heck are we landing at this strip now again? Like Ed says, if the POH says to do it, OK let's do it. But one day you will retract the gear on a retractable aircraft when you meant to dump flaps. The likelhood of that is much greater than....well if you're a redneck pilot "hey Billy watch this..." I might not be correct.

ERAU has one or two seminoles per year trashed in landing gear retraction accidents.

And Lance, Soybeans ARE bad. If I can scrounge around the study here I have three pics of really bad landings in Beans (upside down, tail section torn off in a rotation, etc....) that are local over the years.
 
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Ed Guthrie said:
The answer to this dilemma is simple--don't "grab". Use one finger and one finger only if you feel you must retract flaps on the runway. Most production retracts you must grasp-pull-lift in order to retract the gear. One finger will not do the job.
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Excellent point. I'm going to do this from now on.
 
Ron Levy said:
Annabel Ferin? Mrs. Santa Claus? You're going to have a great time.
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Ron, I'm looking for a DE for the IR ride. I've heard good things about her, would you recommend? I was planning on flying with Ed Cresap, but that won't be possible now.
 
ejensen said:
Even though my 68 owners manual show Vx unchanged (94 mph) from SL to 16,000, I suspect it really does change some. But does it really change enough in any of our type aircraft to matter?

Eric
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Not all that much. Eventually Vx and Vy converge. What matters more is to keep an eye on that airspeed and not simply put the nose up at a particular angle, because it will be different on January 10th compared to July 10th.
 
bbchien said:
And Lance, Soybeans ARE bad. If I can scrounge around the study here I have three pics of really bad landings in Beans (upside down, tail section torn off in a rotation, etc....) that are local over the years.
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Oh, I believe you Bruce, I've just never "tangled" with soybeans personally!
 
wangmyers said:
Ron, I'm looking for a DE for the IR ride. I've heard good things about her, would you recommend? I was planning on flying with Ed Cresap, but that won't be possible now.
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Annabelle's great.

And Ed will be missed -- I took my CFI reinstatement ride with him in 1990 after returning from overseas where it had expired, and my wife took her instrument ride with him. He was a gentleman.
 
Ron Levy said:
Annabelle's great.

And Ed will be missed -- I took my CFI reinstatement ride with him in 1990 after returning from overseas where it had expired, and my wife took her instrument ride with him. He was a gentleman.
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Thanks, Ron. Yep, I did my PPL with Ed, and found him not only to be fair and thorough, but also to be an all-around nice guy that put me right at ease.
 
Ben and Ron, looking forward to meeting Annabelle. too bad I never met Ed. I do have to do a medical checkride (SODA) wonder who does that?
 
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woodstock said:
I do have to do a medical checkride (SODA) wonder who does that?
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That's normally a FSDO function. I don't know whether they can farm that out to a DPE. It may depend on what the SODA is for, and I am NOT prying on that -- just to let you know.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's normally a FSDO function. I don't know whether they can farm that out to a DPE. It may depend on what the SODA is for, and I am NOT prying on that -- just to let you know.
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Ron and Elizabeth, this SODA ride has to be done by an FAA inspector with the FSDO, at least in Elizabeth's case. Elizabeth has made the reason for the ride public, so I don't think she'll mind us discussing it.

Elizabeth, I did my ride after I was done with my long X-C and about a month before the PPL checkride with Ed. You run a risk that if you don't pass, you've wasted a lot of time in flight training. OTOH, if you've been flying this long and your CFI feels that you compensate just fine (which seems to be the case), you will probably pass, and waiting this long in your training will actually allow you to fly that much better. Make sure you download the requirements for this ride before you take it so you know what to expect.
 
wangmyers said:
Ron and Elizabeth, this SODA ride has to be done by an FAA inspector with the FSDO, at least in Elizabeth's case. Elizabeth has made the reason for the ride public, so I don't think she'll mind us discussing it.

Elizabeth, I did my ride after I was done with my long X-C and about a month before the PPL checkride with Ed. You run a risk that if you don't pass, you've wasted a lot of time in flight training. OTOH, if you've been flying this long and your CFI feels that you compensate just fine (which seems to be the case), you will probably pass, and waiting this long in your training will actually allow you to fly that much better. Make sure you download the requirements for this ride before you take it so you know what to expect.
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thanks Ben. somehow I had the idea I had to do this pre-solo - sounds like you did not?

I'll go check my paperwork again. do you get a second bite at the apple if you mess up? I do ok though I guess - so barring something unfortunate...
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, my concern with grabbing the J-bar is that it takes you away from controlling the airplane -- reaching for it and moving it moves your upper body and that can translate into unintended flight control inputs which can be an issue on gusty days. And, as always, if you need the flaps up to stop on the available runway, that runway is too short to take off again.
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And the reason that Annabelle will smack your hand if you touch the flaps for retraction is that she claims she knows someone who grabbed the J-bar by mistake.......not once, but twice. And no, I didn't get my hands slapped:goofy:
 
woodstock said:
thanks Ben. somehow I had the idea I had to do this pre-solo - sounds like you did not?

I'll go check my paperwork again. do you get a second bite at the apple if you mess up? I do ok though I guess - so barring something unfortunate...
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Yes, definitely take a look at the paperwork; you might have to take it pre-solo. In my case, the FAA had issued me a valid medical that allowed me to fly solo as a student, but which would not be valid after passing the checkride. Because of this, I determined that the best way to show that I could demonstrate my ability was to become as proficient as possible, in general. Once I had downloaded the requirements for the SODA ride, I went over them with my CFI who, in turn, said that he felt that I easily met all of those special requirements.

Since he wasn't worried, we both agreed that the best course of action was to wait until just before the PPL checkride, because I would be as proficient as possible by then. For example, if I had taken the SODA ride early on, and I didn't do a good landing, how would the inspector determine that I landed badly because I just needed more practice, not because of my "deficiency?" Another example of this would be identifying objects on the ground from altitude. Once you have some good X-C experience, you get better at this, but pre-solo, you might not be so good at seeing the difference between, say, a dirt road and a creek (if you were presolo in a suburban or urban area airport). How does the inspector know that you just haven't learned to differentiate these things yet? He might think you just can't see them. This is why I waited until after the cross countries.

Now, if you have to take the flight presolo, I would suggest that you download those requirements and make sure your CFI is more than sure you will easily surpass them. I'm sure you will do it! :D
 
woodstock said:
somehow I had the idea I had to do this pre-solo - sounds like you did not?
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Depends on what restrictions you're living with. One of our students tested with a red/green vision problem, but he was given a medical certificate with a "no night flying" restriction, so he can go all the way through Private with the limitation (all night flying for Private is dual -- instructor is PIC for that). OTOH, if you had a problem that completely precluded issuance of a 3rd class medical, you'd have to get it settled before solo.
 
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