short field landings and takeoffs

[woodstock]

since we lose half of our runway in about 2 weeks, we are going to practice short field landings and takeoffs tonight. we still will have at least 2400 feet or so, but it's good practice anyway.

 

[poadeleted3]

since we lose half of our runway in about 2 weeks, we are going to practice short field landings and takeoffs tonight. we still will have at least 2400 feet or so, but it's good practice anyway.

That will be good for you. If you learn to properly utilize your plane, it'll open up a bunch of neat places to you that a lot of pilots are scared to go to. 2400 isn't all that short, but it will sure seem like it at first when it's for real! You'll quickly find that you are still only using about a third of it for landing, and maybe half for taking off.

 

[Greebo]

2400 is 400' longer than the paved runway at 0W3 where I first started flying, and 500' longer than the grass strip (19) at 0W3 which was my first solo.

A C172 on a 2400 foot strip has got room to spare. You'll be surprised how little runway you really need for landing.

 

[MSmith]

Some hints from my training:

1. Don't pull up too far on the short-field takeoff. Just up to Vx. For me, that meant horizon about a fingerwidth below the top edge of the cowling.
2. On short-field landings, don't lock up the brakes or hit them the second that you touch down. Roll a little as you get the flaps up, then gentle pulsing on the brakes (like when your car skids in the winter).

 

[spiderweb]

Some hints from my training:

1. Don't pull up too far on the short-field takeoff. Just up to Vx. For me, that meant horizon about a fingerwidth below the top edge of the cowling.
2. On short-field landings, don't lock up the brakes or hit them the second that you touch down. Roll a little as you get the flaps up, then gentle pulsing on the brakes (like when your car skids in the winter).

Good advice. I'd only add that for Vx make sure you have your eyes on the airspeed, because the angle (where the nose is pointed) will change depending on density altitude. Vx also changes with density altitude, by the way.

 

[woodstock]

thanks everyone!

I have to say it will be interesting getting the flaps up as I am flaring and braking. they are the old style - 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000, 4-1000. (40 degrees).

 

[poadeleted3]

thanks everyone!

I have to say it will be interesting getting the flaps up as I am flaring and braking. they are the old style - 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000, 4-1000. (40 degrees).

I've had one instructor teach me that, and I don't do it now. When I was flying from a real short field, I was taught to keep my hands on the controls, and to absolutely not let my attention be distracted by anything else.

 

[BillG]

For a Skyhawk into 2400' field you really don't need to get the flaps up to stop. Paying attention to controlling the plane is probably more important, and some people say that you should never bring the flaps up while rolling because you may some day go on to a more complex airplane and the action you learn could bring the WHEELS up some day instead of the flaps. I learned to fly at a 1680' field and never needed to bring up the flaps to stop in the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the runway.

 

[Greebo]

thanks everyone!

I have to say it will be interesting getting the flaps up as I am flaring and braking. they are the old style - 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000, 4-1000. (40 degrees).

Your flap switch has to be held up to retract?

We have the "count mississippi" system but its only required for lowering them, not raising them.

And you don't want to be changing the flaps while flaring anyway.

It's approach, level, flare, touchdown, Flaps up, brake.

Don't touch that flaps switch until all 3 wheels are on the ground.

 

[wsuffa]

And when you move to a retract, you'll think twice about raising flaps on landing, even a short field landing.

 

[azure]

And when you move to a retract, you'll think twice about raising flaps on landing, even a short field landing.

That's probably good advice... even though in *some* retracts (the Cardinal RG for one), the gear and flaps levers are far enough apart that there is pretty much zero chance of confusing them. I usually wait until I am down to taxi speed before retracting flaps because it's a bit of a reach for me and a distraction from keeping the airplane under control during a critical phase of flight - ditto for opening the cowl flaps.

Liz

 

[Ken Ibold]

That's probably good advice... even though in *some* retracts (the Cardinal RG for one), the gear and flaps levers are far enough apart that there is pretty much zero chance of confusing them.

This is also the beauty of the Arrow/Lance/Saratoga system where the manual flaps are a bar between the seats and the gear is an electric switch. Pretty much impossible to confuse the two, and you don't have to go heads-down to find the flap lever when they're extended.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you look at the numbers in your POH, you'll see that if the field is so short you have to retract the flaps to brake hard enough to stop before the end of the runway, the only way your plane is leaving is on a flatbed truck, so you shouldn't even think about landing there. I prefer to keep hands and attention on the flight controls during rollout. The "flaps up for braking" has real utility only on an emergency landing when you don't care if the field is too short to take off again.

 

[woodstock]

thanks guys! yes, you have to have your hands on the lever the whole time. the POH does mention the flaps if necessary, but I agree - 2400 is still way long. this is just practice. we'll see what my CFI says tonight.

given that the right side is my blind side, I don't know that I want to be pushing levers by feel because I sure as hell ain't taking my eyes off the runway to do it.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

since we lose half of our runway in about 2 weeks, we are going to practice short field landings and takeoffs tonight. we still will have at least 2400 feet or so, but it's good practice anyway.

We teach the flaps up for braking because it's in the POH but, it's rarely found truely useful except on the wet grass of a very short strip, or maybe an off-field LDG.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's probably good advice... even though in *some* retracts (the Cardinal RG for one), the gear and flaps levers are far enough apart that there is pretty much zero chance of confusing them.

On the Baron, they are indeed very far apart, but unfortunately, on early Barons the gear is on the right and flaps on the left, and on later Barons, it's reversed. And on the Aztecs in which I flew 900 hours, it was flaps-left/gear-right, but on my Cougar in which I flew around 500 hours it was flaps-right/gear-left. No thank you, folks -- I'll wait until I'm stopped clear of the runway so I can look, feel, and then move.

 

[fgcason]

I have to say it will be interesting getting the flaps up as I am flaring and braking.

That's completely unnecessary in a CE172 on 2400ft of pavement. For that matter you don't really need the brakes either if you land slow and touch down at a sensible spot. It'll be well on it's way to rolling to a stop before you get to the lights. Sorry, it's been a really long time since I did it in a 172 so I don't recall how far a 172 rolls when you just let it but 2400ft is a non event brake tap at most. I do remember that 2000ft on grass in a Cherokee 180 requires throttle to get to the end.

I was taught primary controls only (yoke, throttle, rudder, brakes) and eyes outside when doing the actual deed while flying on/off short obstructed runways. I was specifically taught to not fool with switches and dials and knobs and levers while doing that.
IMHO based on flying out of 1500ft runways, grass dirt and concrete, leave the flaps alone. It won't decrease your landing distance enough to justify the hazard of messing with levers (especially on a runway long enough to fly out of later) when you should be watching where you're going...

Besides, if you do short field right and get all over the brakes after touchdown, you can either get it stopped or be really close to stopped before the flaps quit retracting. Why bother...


Just curious: Do Alaska bush pilots ever fool with the flaps while rolling after touchdown on some of those really fun looking runways? All the pictures and video's I've seen they don't touch anything they don't have to until they get it completely stopped and those are a LOT shorter than 2400ft.

 

[wsuffa]

If I can land my Commander in less than 2500', a C172 should be easy....

Just nail the speed on final. This will be good training...

I wanna know what all the bizjets are going to do... go into Dulles?

 

[spiderweb]

Elizabeth, retracting the flaps dumps your lift (once they get less than about 25 degrees), but doing so probably doesn't reduce the landing roll as much as firm braking will. For short field practice I do retract the flaps, as this is the POH recommendation, but as others have pointed out, you are very busy and you don't want to grab the wrong thing (in a retract).

I have found retracting the flaps to be more helpful on blustery days, especially in light aircraft. I want to get all three on the ground, dump lift, and get slowed down so gusts won't pick me up. Interestingly, this case has nothing to do with the length of the field, just the fact that I want to transition from flying to taxiing ASAP.

If you want to retract the flaps, this is what I recommend: so that you won't grab the wrong thing (especially important for you with your right eye), give yourself time. Flare, land, get the mains and nose down, control inputs to compensate for the crosswind, and when everything is stabilized LOOK at the flap handle and retract. Once your hand is there, get your eyes back on the runway. Don't be spring loaded to retract the flaps, and don't stare at the handle.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

you don't want to grab the wrong thing (in a retract).

The answer to this dilemma is simple--don't "grab". Use one finger and one finger only if you feel you must retract flaps on the runway. Most production retracts you must grasp-pull-lift in order to retract the gear. One finger will not do the job.

 

[bbchien]

The answer to this dilemma is simple--don't "grab". Use one finger and one finger only if you feel you must retract flaps on the runway. Most production retracts you must grasp-pull-lift in order to retract the gear. One finger will not do the job.

Leave the Flaps alone. It doesn't improve ground roll much to retract them, and it can only lead to a world of gear hurt.

 

[dogman]

It will look short at first then you will not believe how much room you have left to taxi on.

2400 is not short for a 172. but this will be a good learning experience and a good confidence builder.

After this 2400 look for 2000 then 1800 then 1500. Then look for narrow runways, Grass runways.

Got my Private at 78Y in Maryville MO. It is listed as 600ft gravel end 1200 x 24ft concrete center 600ft gravelend . But the 1200 x 24ft concrete is actually 14ft wide. Because they have never finished pouring the other half of the runway.
You can land on a 1200ft by 14ft runway and never touch the gravel,and you do not have to raise flaps, and still need to taxi to the end.All of this instructors students learn to and So can you!

Make your instructor take you to smaller and smaller fields and get that experience. It made me learn that if there is a problem I can set it down in a pretty tight place. That gave me confidence to handle most any emergency.

Get all the experience you can from all the Good instrutors you can.

 

[gismo]

This is also the beauty of the Arrow/Lance/Saratoga system where the manual flaps are a bar between the seats and the gear is an electric switch. Pretty much impossible to confuse the two, and you don't have to go heads-down to find the flap lever when they're extended.

Manual (Johnson bar) flaps are the only type I'd ever consider retracting while rolling out, and that's where the technique came from AFaIK. Bush pilots have used changes in flap settings to shorten both landing and takeoff rolls, but the concept really only works when you can change the flaps in an instant. With electric, hydraulic, or pneumatic flaps the speed of retraction or deployment is normally too slow to allow any noticeable improvement in runway requirements. Also most tricycle gear planes lose most of their lift at landing speed once you get the nosewheel on the ground so the whole concept is more suited for taildraggers in the first place.

WRT to grabbing the wrong control inadvertently, I can tell you that "muscle memory" is a factor. Way more than one pilot has managed to move the wrong control even when they were substantially different shapes and/or required a different motion (E.G. pull out and raise vs just raise). It seems that the motor contol part of your nervous system is quite capable of performing the more complex movement of the landing gear control in response to a vague command from higher up that was supposed to initiate a flap retraction. I'm having a hard time seeing this happen when the flaps are manual though, but I wouldn't rule the possibility out.

 

[woodstock]

wow, thanks everyone. my home computer internet is down so I have a lot to catch up on.

first off - no flap retraction. we're not going there. the examiner (Annabel?) doesn't like that, apart from clearly not needing to do that except in extreme cases as above.

eventually when I'm good enough we will go to Clearview! I'll find the airport ID and post it later. it's 1800, narrow, trees or power lines on one end (I forget) and also uphill.

good night for flying, a little hazy up near FDK. practiced slow flights and stalls again (it's been a long time) and then turned around to come back. he showed me one short field and I did the second one.

the landing itself - ehhh, not so short, but, overall really smooth (I'm getting better! I really am!) I flared a little bit too high, floated some, recovered and squeaked down but definitely need some work. I think I also didn't actually touch down soon enough. but, a good start.

we practiced using the runway which won't actually have the obstruction (35 will, not 17) so presumably to compensate I won't be coming in high but I'll have to be closer to the numbers on touchdown in general. using 35 is when it will be over the trucks.

I don't know where the bizjets will go, I wondered! I hope this doesn't take all summer!

 

[BillG]

No flaps as in landing with no flaps at all or no flap retracting after landing? Not using flaps if you have them seems crazy to me - they're there for a reason and should be used. And then left down until you can comfortably retract them!

 

[gismo]

No flaps as in landing with no flaps at all or no flap retracting after landing? Not using flaps if you have them seems crazy to me - they're there for a reason and should be used. And then left down until you can comfortably retract them!

I'm certain that Elizabeth meant the latter (use flaps and don't retract for "added braking effectiveness").

 

[woodstock]

we are landing with full 40 flaps. not retracting upon touchdown.

 

[Greebo]

Clearview is 2W2.

And I didn't test with Annabelle but I have heard of her, but I never heard anything about her not liking to use flaps?

Not using flaps in a short field landing is going to add speed, and roll-out length - and work contrary to the purpose.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Leave the Flaps alone. It doesn't improve ground roll much to retract them, and it can only lead to a world of gear hurt.

While I agree with the general principle that flaps should be left alone on the runway, the reality is that sooner or later the pilot will actually need to raise the flaps on the runway. Example is a Mooney on an uneven runway surface. Leave flaps down and the braking distance is phenomenally longer than if flaps are promptly retracted because the aircraft tends to get airborne off of every "rise" in the runway surface with the flaps down. The choices are to either not teach how to do it when it must be done, or to recognize that sooner or later it will happen so it is better to teach a good technique.

Choices, choices.

 

[poadeleted20]

first off - no flap retraction. we're not going there. the examiner (Annabel?) doesn't like that, apart from clearly not needing to do that except in extreme cases as above.

Annabel Ferin? Mrs. Santa Claus? You're going to have a great time.

eventually when I'm good enough we will go to Clearview! I'll find the airport ID and post it later. it's 1800, narrow, trees or power lines on one end (I forget) and also uphill.

I've been into Clearview a couple of times in a C-172, and it ain't easy. Nail your speed, and don't be afraid to go around and try it again if it doesn't look right.

 

[woodstock]

Clearview is 2W2.

And I didn't test with Annabelle but I have heard of her, but I never heard anything about her not liking to use flaps?

Not using flaps in a short field landing is going to add speed, and roll-out length - and work contrary to the purpose.

sorry. flap RETRACTION. perhaps I should delete her name and all references, last thing I need is to have this get around.

 

[woodstock]

Annabel Ferin? Mrs. Santa Claus? You're going to have a great time.

I've been into Clearview a couple of times in a C-172, and it ain't easy. Nail your speed, and don't be afraid to go around and try it again if it doesn't look right.

someone actually had to land at Clearview on their checkride. several go-arounds later... they landed. they did pass however. better safe than sorry.

 

[poadeleted3]

While I agree with the general principle that flaps should be left alone on the runway, the reality is that sooner or later the pilot will actually need to raise the flaps on the runway. Example is a Mooney on an uneven runway surface. Leave flaps down and the braking distance is phenomenally longer than if flaps are promptly retracted because the aircraft tends to get airborne off of every "rise" in the runway surface with the flaps down. The choices are to either not teach how to do it when it must be done, or to recognize that sooner or later it will happen so it is better to teach a good technique.

Choices, choices.

But teaching them to leave the flaps alone on the landing roll IS good technique. I see no sense in teaching bad technique simply to prepare students for the foibles and oddities of a plane they may never fly. If it's something they need to know for a particular plane, they can learn it when they need it.

 

[poadeleted20]

someone actually had to land at Clearview on their checkride. several go-arounds later... they landed. they did pass however. better safe than sorry.

Yup -- judgement and safety are the two most important items on the Pvt practical test.

 

[Greebo]

someone actually had to land at Clearview on their checkride. several go-arounds later... they landed. they did pass however. better safe than sorry.

Choosing to go around will never fail you your checkride.

FAILING to go around, on the other hand, when you should have, can be a sure-fire way to scare the examiner.

Scaring the examiner == BAAAAAD.

 

[poadeleted3]

Annabel Ferin? Mrs. Santa Claus? You're going to have a great time.

I've been into Clearview a couple of times in a C-172, and it ain't easy. Nail your speed, and don't be afraid to go around and try it again if it doesn't look right.

Would you take a Tiger into that field? Book numbers for take off and landing in the Tiger are comparable to the Skyhawk, but after flying a Tiger, I don't believe the book.

 

[Greebo]

Hey Liz...

Give Ms. Ferin a POA Flyer after she gives you your temporary certificate.

Be great to have a DPE here. (Or do we already?)

 

[Diana]

Be great to have a DPE here. (Or do we already?)

Yes, at least one that I know of. Jim Belew, Rudy's grandfather. Great guy. Tom sends his students to him.

 

[Greebo]

Of course, how could I forget!

Sorry Jim! No offense! I'm just riddled with a horrible memory for anything not geeky in nature...

 

[poadeleted20]

Would you take a Tiger into that field? Book numbers for take off and landing in the Tiger are comparable to the Skyhawk, but after flying a Tiger, I don't believe the book.

I would not fly a Tiger into Clearview unless it was solo with half tanks on departure.