Server Search Saga

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Dave Taylor
I finally located a company willing to help locate, configure, and maintain a server in my small business.
Have a look at the choices I am being offered, below.
(If you want my functional requirements, have a look at this thread.)

My first impression is wow, 10 grand for a simple server system for a tiny business (fully recognizing I am a cheapskate; "that is a lot of avgas")

However I think some of the offerings are a bit overkill; 400$ printers? I have never paid over $150 for decent networkable black-only laser printers.
And the desktops are probably more than I need.

What about the rest of it?

I have modified the quote in order that I can understand it so hope I did not ruin the meaning with my translation:
 
Server: ML350T09 E5-2609V3LFF SVR $1,899.00

3 Hard drives HP Midline - 1 TB@ - hot-swappable - 3.5" LFF - SAS 6Gb/s -
7200 rpm with HP SmartDrive carrier $877.50

3-Year 24x7 Warranty $729.00

Power Cord $9.00

Windows Server 2012R2Microsoft Corporation 1 WinSvrStd 2012R2 SNGL OLP NL 2Proc $850.00

Quickbooks Premier 2016 5-User 2016 DL (disk plus licenses) $1,225.73

Server Configuration (Software/Hardware) $150.00 $150.00

SUBTOTAL - Server & Server Components/Configuration $5,740.23


Desktops: 3@ 280 G1 MT I5-4590S 3G 4GB/500GB DVD-RW Win7P
64BIT $545.00x3=$1,635.00

Monitors: 3@ 21.5in WS LED1920X1080 600:1 VGA DVI-D BLACK
5MS $120.00 $360.00

User licenses for server Microsoft Corporation 5 WINSVRCAL 2012 SNGL OLP NLUSRCAL $36.00x5= $180.00

Remote access license? Microsoft Corporation 1 WINRMTDSKTPSRVCSCAL 2012 SNGLOLP NL USRCAL $122.00

Printer OFFICEJET PRO X576DWMFP $400.00x4=$1,600.00

SUBTOTAL – Desktops etc $3897


Total $9,637.23
 
Well, roughly looking at the list I'm not seeing any line items that jump out at me, but I'm not in the business and haven't put together a server in a while so not exactly sure what they should be. As far as printers go it's mostly dependent on volume. Like planes, the cost of purchase is just the buy in. You buy a cheap one with high cost refill and do large volume, you quickly surpass your savings over a more expensive unit that has low cost refill. For mid volume report generating the cheap B&W Brother laser printers always were fine for me, but I didn't use them for more than a couple of months.

Why do you need desk tops at all? What function are they serving and is replacing them with a tablet feasible?
 
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I think in the original thread I mentioned that running full blown Windows Server OS wasn't technically necessary for a machine hosting a copy of QB.

QB acts as its own server. So unless you need features in Windows Server 2012R2 besides running QB, you don't really need it.

The prices for what you got quoted are "okay". About what I'd expect for quantity 1. Nothing looks like a rip off.

What else will the Windows server be doing? If nothing, a server of that caliber may not really be needed. We out together a machine with SSD disk, 16 cores / quad processor i7, and 64GB of RAM from components for a particular job at the office and it was barely $2000. Some assembly required.

Looks like they put three disks in it, so they'll set it up with RAID 5. That'll give you one disk failure worth of redundancy. Plan on having or easily obtaining a spare. Looks like you did the warranty on-site so that'll work.

Don't see anything mentioned about how they're planning to have you back up the server or the QB data?

Printer: I'd never use an inkjet in a business environment, but that's me. I'd get a laser printer. My Canon at home is a massive multi-function machine that ran $350 new.

The desktops are fine. i5 processors aren't going to win any speed races but faster isn't needed in this application.

I *think* for what you're trying to do, you can do it for about half the price by building your own hardware, but that comes with its own problems you may or may not want to deal with.

Executive summary: Prices for what was quoted are in the ball park. Not sure you need that much horsepower on the back end. ;)
 
Looks like an HP shop.

DISCLAIMER: I do not sell IT products nor do IT for hire. Just experience bundling some servers up for various project deliverables. Although usually the servers i deal with are in the 30-50k range per server...

You could always buy your own printers after, but if you get them from them they'll likely be the hp shop.

Here are some questions i would ask?

The PowerEdge T110 II Tower i quickly spec'd out (you didn't list ram that was with your server) came to 1600 inclusive of hard drives and windows licenses.

Why Server 2012 standard. For your use case, it really looks like Server 2012 essentials may be a better fit. And i think essentials may also get rid of those CALs http://windowsitpro.com/article/windowsserver2012/windows-server-2012-foundation-essentials-144405
Essentials, however, is about as simple as servers get: In addition to pre-configuring a domain for you, Essentials has integrated file and media sharing, centralized PC backup (Windows 7 and Windows 8) and network health monitoring and reporting, remote and web access, simple Group Policy, and optional integration with Office 365 or hosted or on-premises Exchange Server. It’s the spiritual successor to Small Business Server, minus the on-premises Exchange, SharePoint, and SQL, in a nod toward the way today’s small businesses really work.

You can do remote access with essentials, just not virtualization. Quickbooks premier 2013 sys requirements specifically listed 2012 essentials as on the list. 2016 sys reqs don't specify any specific version of server 2012.

Windows storage in 2012 has made some vast improvements. You can do alot of things with windows storage above the RAID controller that you can't do with a hardware RAID. For example you could make different storage spaces with different redundancy requirements spread over the same 3 disks.

Those desktops seem fine, however if you really want desktops i'd look for the equivalent in the mini pc or the small form factor series of those HPs instead of the micro tower.



Now at the same time i think the charge for server/desktop configuration labor is pretty low. Maybe it's taking into account the margin on the hardware already.


What i don't see in that list:
Remote Access solution in terms of your router/firewall/etc. perhaps you are keeping your existing one.

Any office licenses (perhaps open source or already have those licenses)
 
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Might be time to look at the cloud. There are now some companies that offer cloud-based small business accounting and email solutions for a very reasonable price.
 
I'm sure somethings could be offloaded, however OP had a requirement for Quickbook features that were only available in the locally installed version and not the hosted version.

The other thread on reqs also seemed to imply the internet connection was neither fast nor reliable.


However an off site online backup solution might still be a good thing to do. 20GB isn't much at all, once that is uploaded, differentials should be small.
 
I don't know what your printing volume is going to be but in my experience the cheaper the printer the more you pay for ink/toner. I looked up that model printer and I see it being sold for anywhere between $320 and $799, that seems like a huge price difference. I don't understand why they are quoting you 4 printers. If you have three computers why do you need four printers? The spec for the printer says that it is a network printer. For the $1,600 they are quoting you for 4 printers I would think you could buy a better printer that would cost less for the consumables.

I manage a corporate network and I have had to do studies on that topic of initial printer cost vs. cost of consumables over time and I have found that I am much better off buying a printer with a higher initial cost. As an example, we have a number of color printers in our company. The ones I have been buying are from Xerox and they use a solid ink. I have found those to be the most cost effective for the amount and type of printing we do. There is a low cost model that is under $800 and there is a better model that cost a little over $2,000. When I look at the average number of pages we print annually and the yield of the ink for each printer. I find that the annual cost of ink for the cheaper printer is $1,400 while the annual cost of ink for the better printer is only $400 for the same page count. So we buy the better printer, that is built better and we make up the extra cost within the first two years. I had to do this study to convince the accounting people that this was the better way to go.

Jean
 
I don't know what your printing volume is going to be but in my experience the cheaper the printer the more you pay for ink/toner. I looked up that model printer and I see it being sold for anywhere between $320 and $799, that seems like a huge price difference. I don't understand why they are quoting you 4 printers. If you have three computers why do you need four printers? The spec for the printer says that it is a network printer. For the $1,600 they are quoting you for 4 printers I would think you could buy a better printer that would cost less for the consumables.

I manage a corporate network and I have had to do studies on that topic of initial printer cost vs. cost of consumables over time and I have found that I am much better off buying a printer with a higher initial cost. As an example, we have a number of color printers in our company. The ones I have been buying are from Xerox and they use a solid ink. I have found those to be the most cost effective for the amount and type of printing we do. There is a low cost model that is under $800 and there is a better model that cost a little over $2,000. When I look at the average number of pages we print annually and the yield of the ink for each printer. I find that the annual cost of ink for the cheaper printer is $1,400 while the annual cost of ink for the better printer is only $400 for the same page count. So we buy the better printer, that is built better and we make up the extra cost within the first two years. I had to do this study to convince the accounting people that this was the better way to go.

Jean

Another typical benefit of the better machine if you do volume is they are faster and have collating features which up productivity. But my suspicion is he is printing mostly low volume invoice stuff most of the time.
 
The last time I bought workstations for my business, it was a pallet of 3YO off lease computers found on eBay.

& you don't need a big server and Windows Server to run QB. My guess, which someone will be able to verify or not, is that a Synology NAS box with a pair of mirrored hard drives (hot swap nice but not necessary) might be all you need. Again, eBay is your friend.

There is also a cloud version of QB that you should probably take a look at. If it will meet your needs it finesses the need for a server and a backup solution.

For support, I'd try to find an individual who works out of his house and advertises support for individuals and small businesses. Somebody like that is much more cost conscious and inexpensive that the people you are talking to. And the setup you have is not much more than some home systems anyway.

+1 on avoiding inkjets. Also avoid color if at all possible. Look at the per-page cost of consumables as carefully as you look at purchase price.

Edit: A quick look around the Quickbooks site tends to confirm my suspicion that you do not need a server at all, just a place to store the data file where everyone can share it. An inexpensive NAS box (network attached storage) is probably all you need, but I would verify with Intuit sales.
 
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WOW Thanks for the input, feel it getting closer!

Difficult to respond on this device: some brief notes-

-printers.. very low volume, B&W, plugnplay, networkable, iaser. I am thinking 100$ ea. cheapies - the consumables costs will be very low. Need 5 (3 desktops, 2 notebooks)
-why desktops.. like the form factor
-why a server/QB doesnt need... may not be able to justify it but like the other functions provided by a server...have looked at NAS. I have asked for RAID5 with hotswappable disks. We may certainly end up with something less.
-backups.. still need to address that, UPS, surge control.
-vendor offered all-HP package but says they deal with all hardware types...we are not committed to HP
-will ask about Win Server Essentials
-do need remote access, assumed its part of server software... vendor said Remote Desktop is a newer version of Terminal Services -T or F?
-office licenses: planning to po'boy it with OO
-yes Bill -have pretty much decided against cloud for QB or other day to day activities...for now. Not just b/c I hate the thought of contributing to Intuit's revenue stream! For one of our backups, yes; cloud.

Summary:
-ditching spensy printers for disposable ones
-going with disposable desktops for 3 workstations, 2 cheapo laptops/notebooks
-will ask about less fancy server and WinServerEssentials
you guys rock, add more comments if desired.
 
Requirements: "I want to be able to have our Word and Excel (actually, OpenOffice) etc files all stored in one place where any of the computers can access the files. I need separate log-ins for each employee so I can control which files they can access. I need to be able to access these files remotely too."
A NAS box can be set up to serve multiple volumes, each looking to the workstations like a separate disk. Access permissions can be set on a per-volume basis (maybe even finer; I have never tried), so each employee can be given access to only the data he/she needs. Each workstation can also be given a volume to which it backs up itself. Synology has a remote FTP access feature to files. Synology also includes "cloud" software that lets you set up a private cloud that's accessible on the internet.
Requirements: " I have less than 20 gB of data right now and that might double or quadruple at the worst. ... I want it to be RAID 5, with hot-swappable disks."
With respect, why RAID 5 and hot swap?? A pair of 1TB mirrored drives, cold swappable, will last you a long time. Buy a third drive, test it, and keep it in a drawer as a cold spare. If one of the production drives croaks, down the NAS, swap the drive, and start back up. Worst case lost time a half hour, probably less. That's the inexpensive approach. With RAID 5 you'll have to buy a fourth disk drive and the office downtime you'll save if a disk fails is tiny.
Requirements: "Three people will need access to about 5 computers from time to time in the office - not heavy or constant use - and I will need to access the computers from home or on the road, weekly."
Windows has a remote access feature that will probably be adequate. There are other solutions easily availble and also free. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2091801/5-alternatives-to-logmein-free-for-remote-pc-access.html A few years ago I was using VNC and was quite happy with it, but I don't have any recent experience.
Requirements: " ... an absolutely reliable backup ... "
Cloud backup is the currently-popular solution. To use it, you'll need a fairly fast (= $$) broadband connection. (1 gig of data at 10 megabits/second will take well over 2 hours to transfer). An alternative would be a second NAS box stored in a fire-resistant safe, with automatic backup from the first box. Another option is a cold spare SATA drive to which you copy your NAS data periodically (weekly, maybe) and keep offsite. This is what I do with my home network except that the SATA drive sleeps in my gun safe. Lots of options here, though none are without warts.
I am using Synology as an example because that is the vendor I have and the one I am most familiar with. I chose them because they have an excellent reputation and incredibly capable software. There are others, though, and in the three or so years since I made my decison someone may have pulled ahead or be attractive to you for some other reason. Don't think it is Synology or nothing.

I have a DS212+, dual drive with (totally unnecessary) hot swap. This year's model is the DS215+. It's $400 on Amazon; figure another $150 or so each for a couple of good 1TB drives. If you just gotta have RAID 5, then look at the DS415+. $600 at Amazon. No software or client licenses to buy for any of them.

There are also lower-performance Synology boxes like the DS215J at $200 that, truthfully, would probably be enough for what you are doing.

Two other general comments:

  • When you go to the six-sigma quality training they begin by teaching you that "Quality is conformance to requirements." Exceeding requirements is not added quality; it is added expense.
  • One of the most expensive project management diseases is called "creeping elegance."

HTH. Standard terms: All opinions guaranteed worth price paid.
 
Quickbooks does not support a NAS. It requires a windows os to share the DB.
 
I've been out of that end of the business for a while, but nothing jumps out at me as being way out of line.

Rich
 
This looks pretty good. You can certainly go lower end on the printers, but definitely go laser and networked. As Denver pointed out, I am not convinced they are addressing your backup requirements and terminal services needs to be licensed for more than two concurrent users. Terminal services should not be run on the main server, but can be run on a virtual instance. Alternately, you can remote in to a desktop, as long as it is not being used by someone else. HP is a good brand and has good service.
 
WOW Thanks for the input, feel it getting closer!

Difficult to respond on this device: some brief notes-

-printers.. very low volume, B&W, plugnplay, networkable, iaser. I am thinking 100$ ea. cheapies - the consumables costs will be very low. Need 5 (3 desktops, 2 notebooks)

If the printer are network printers then why do you need a separate printer for each computer? One would do, or you could buy two so you have a spare in the event one goes down. Inkjet printers are by far the most expensive to operate due to the cost of the ink cartridges. If it were me I would buy an inexpensive laser printer with network capability. There are plenty of them out there.
 
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Quickbooks does not support a NAS. It requires a windows os to share the DB.
That's a slight oops on the NAS then. But the OP could just share it from one of the workstations, right? Back up the workstation to the NAS and get the QB file into the backup system that way.
 
I think I wrote Laser, (not ink)....post 11. That is the plan.
Need multiple printers in order to reduce time; 4500sf building.
Really hoping to have QB on a server, vs at one workstation.
 
My thoughts, worth what you're paying for them: The server hardware, you're on the right track, it's the back bone and it's not that expensive where it's worth scrimping on, what are you going to save, enough to buy a few beers? The printers as I said before, in that kind of service the cheap Brother B&W laser boxes have served me very well for many years, and that includes long storage periods between heavy uses which s about the most severe test I have for printers.

The bigest server expense I'm seeing that I don't see a need for in your application is the Server 2012 software license.

It's the desk top/monitor sets where I see the best place where I find opportunity to pare the bill. All in one units like this http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9785146&Sku=HQR-102997815 can provide significant cost and space savings if you don't need an advanced gaming level machine.
 
i agree henning thanks
we'll be doing just that
thanks to all
It looks like QB quietly dropped NAS support in the 2015 release: https://community.intuit.com/questi...as-not-working-after-upgrading-to-qb-pro-2015 So if you're not running 2015 you could roll the dice that they will be forced by users to make it available again down the road. Alternatively, from that linked discussion it looks like there are a couple of decent workarounds.

RE "server" hey if you want to spend the money, have at it. Lots of disks whirring, RAID 5, ... fun.

The premise of your OP was that you wanted to save money and the fact is that you don't need a server. You're not running any client-server software like Exchange Server or SQL Server. You just need a box that can share files. With QB dropping NAS support, a Win 7 (or later editions) is probably just fine. Presumably "later editions" retain the ability to mirror drives, which you probably should use. Beyond that, the ability to define shares, etc. from Windows is more or less the same as what can be done with an NAS box. And speed is not an issue for you; if you had a graphics shop with many users and were handling large photo or graphics bitmaps that would be a different matter. But your applications just don't involve much data transfer.
 
You experienced the same I found when I asked a service provider to spec out a system for a small business. They tend to go overboard on some things, forget others completely and like to ignore the ongoing cost of maintaining the system.

As for the quote you got:

- $150 seems overly optimistic in terms of cost to set up a server. Who sets up the workstations, printing etc.

- Your server needs are quite minimal. When I spitballed that Dell quote for you, I came up with $2227 for the server hardware when your vendor is at $3625

- Do you really need 4 different multifunction printers and does it make any sense to go with inkjets ? How about one good and fast laser printer and one multifunction to handle scanning, fax and backup printing ?

- What are your current PCs capable of ? Spike suggested to run your applications on the server and to have every user access the system via remote desktop. In that configuration, the requirements on the individual workstation are minimal. Any PC from windows XP on up will be able to handle this.

- For workstations, I dont like to have those big mini-tower boxes. I have never added hardware to a workstation, so either 'all in one' (if deskpsace is limited) or subcompact form factor works better (I have some dells that look like a big hockeypuck and you can bolt them to a wall).

- What is he proposing for backup and recovery ?

- What is he proposing for network protection (firewall applicance) ?

- What is he proposing for ongoing maintenance ?
 
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-do need remote access, assumed its part of server software... vendor said Remote Desktop is a newer version of Terminal Services -T or F?

unfortunately neither true nor false....

Remote Desktop Protocol is the name of the protocol used. And Remote Desktop as an application name typically refers to the application actually named mstsc.exe (Microsoft terminal services client).

Now starting with server 2008 microsoft changed the naming convention of their server role dealing with remote access to a group of roles called remote desktop services. There became two roles for the two different types of hosted desktop scenarios. There is Session Host and Virtualization Host. Traditional terminal services is now called Remote Desktop Session Host. People connect remotely to the same running instance of Server concurrently. Remote Desktop Virtualization Host is about hosting the client OS as a Virtual Machine, so when you connect you are connecting to a VM running on the server, not to the server itself.


Both of the below would probably rely on having at least a stable internet.
There are some online posts about people running quick books on amazon EC2 instances and shutting the instance off during non business hours.

There seem to be sites that claim to provide hosted full versions : Example: https://www.rightnetworks.com/solutions/quickbooks-hosting/ 2012 Pro to 2015 Enterprise.
 
i agree henning thanks
we'll be doing just that
thanks to all

I am left with one question though, why do you need a server at all? Is there no way to serve the same function by networking the stations and have them mirror the QB databases between them? That would give you a complete mirror on all 5 drives eliminating the need for any RAID function.:dunno: Not sure, and not an expert and don't use QB, but I'm not seeing a technological impediment. Your overall requirements are so small, I'm not seeing where the server comes in.
 
I had a similar office set up.

Windows 2003 Server running Terminal Services: Email, Quickbooks, and ACT.

A "Friend" IT guru talked me into a new server running VMware to separate all the functions. I purchased a new server and dropped it off at his house. After 3 months he was not done and gave me the server back and said he didn't have time to finish the project.

I contacted a few local IT support companies to finish the job and they were all in the 5-10k range to complete the set up. I am not an IT guy and don't want to be so I bailed on the project and just set up what I needed.

I ended up buying a $300 PC to run and share QB to Methode CRM and give me remote access.
ACT was replaced with Methode CRM (cloud based). Methode CRM also gives users to 90% of Quickbooks functions with a single user license.
Email was switched to Google - Cloud

I would have gone to QB cloud based but it gives up some function that I need.

No server needed and no IT companies to pay. My set up cost $80/month.

I have a really nice server sitting here as a paper weight. Make me an offer.

Specs:
Dell PowerEdge T620
Intel Xeon 1.8ghz cpu
16GB RAM
4x 1tb 7.2 sata drives RAID10
 
Nice recovery from the disease of creeping elegance! KISS.
 
Might be time to look at the cloud. There are now some companies that offer cloud-based small business accounting and email solutions for a very reasonable price.

This.

Quickbooks Online. I believe you can also host a version of Quickbooks in Azure.

Office 365 and use OneDrive for central storage.

With todays cloud offerings, there is a very limited need to have a local server. Cloud give you built in backup, Disaster Recovery, mobility, scalability....with all of the complexity managed by someone else for a monthly fee.
 
This.

Quickbooks Online. I believe you can also host a version of Quickbooks in Azure.

Office 365 and use OneDrive for central storage.

With todays cloud offerings, there is a very limited need to have a local server. Cloud give you built in backup, Disaster Recovery, mobility, scalability....with all of the complexity managed by someone else for a monthly fee.

All that requires fast, reliable and redundant internet, which he doesnt have.
 
All that requires fast, reliable and redundant internet, which he doesnt have.

Exactly, what people who live in urban hubs tend to forget is that the Internet reliability, capacity, and options aren't that great everywhere. There's a lot of places still that cloud is not a viable model for station terminal functions.
 
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