Selling an airplane

[Electric]

So, I currently rent different kinds of airplanes, and I'm slowly looking into buying one. As a good pilot would do, I'm trying to look one step ahead, to find out how difficult it is to sell one.

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it typically take a long time to sell one?

Say I buy a c172 from the 60s and a few month later decide I need more of an airplane (or find out I can not afford to mainline even this one) will I be able to sell one reasonable quickly (in a month or so) without loosing a lot of money?

Are there any fees associate with selling an airplane?

 

[Mafoo]

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it topically take a long time to sell one?

That's the trick.

If it's at market price, it should sell quickly. The problem is the seller and they buyer these days never often agree on what that is.

 

[Bob Noel]

So, I currently rent different kinds of airplanes, and I'm slowly looking into buying one. As a good pilot would do, I'm trying to look one step ahead, to find out how difficult it is to sell one.

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it typically take a long time to sell one?

Say I buy a c172 from the 60s and a few month later decide I need more of an airplane (or find out I can not afford to mainline even this one) will I be able to sell one reasonable quickly (in a month or so) without loosing a lot of money?

Are there any fees associate with selling an airplane?

Price the airplane right, and it will sell relatively quickly, even in a buyer's market.

Imagine looking at an airplane that the owner just bought a few months ago. Wouldn't that raise red flags for you?

Having just sold my airplane, no, there are no fees associated with a private (at least here in Taxachusetts).

btw - if you are concerned that you might not be able to afford to maintain a particular aircraft, that would be a red flag...at least for me. It's glib, but if you are concerned about the affordability of owning, then you probably can't afford it.

Good luck

(wanna buy a 1975 Archer I? - not mine, it belongs to a friend)

edit: the Archer is on the Cape, so it may be pretty close to you in CT)

 

[Mafoo]

It's glib, but if you are concerned about the affordability of owning, then you probably can't afford it.

I think it matters more what he thinks it costs to own one. If he thinks the yearly cost is 50K, and he is worried if it goes over that, I think he is safe.

If he thinks it's 5K, he needs to worry

 

[poadeleted21]

So, I currently rent different kinds of airplanes, and I'm slowly looking into buying one. As a good pilot would do, I'm trying to look one step ahead, to find out how difficult it is to sell one.

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it typically take a long time to sell one?

Say I buy a c172 from the 60s and a few month later decide I need more of an airplane (or find out I can not afford to mainline even this one) will I be able to sell one reasonable quickly (in a month or so) without loosing a lot of money?

Are there any fees associate with selling an airplane?

If you buy it right, you can sell it right. I don't agree with the adage "If you have to ask you can't afford it" After I bought my Cherokee, I was POed that I bought it because I found that i could afford more plane given my situation. You can spend as much on an old Cessna or Cherokee as you want, they don't have to be expensive though (well slinging a rod at 200SMOH or something unexpected like that can force your hand) if you can get with a good shop and don't mind getting greasy every once in a while. I was spending too much on my Cherokee and realized, I should upgrade planes instead. I sold my Cherokee for more than I paid for it (though I did fix it up quite a bit) put 200 hrs on it and sold it in just over a week at a fair price. It was a well maintained, decent equipped honest plane at an honest price. When you move up in money and complexity, I think the market shrinks a bit and it can be a tougher sell these days. It's sad what twins are selling for. But a good solid 60's 172 outta sell fast if you have it priced right. I've found Vref to be 10% or so too high for what things are actually selling for. Most of the planes on the internet sites are overpriced, but most of the sellers are willing to negotiate.

 

[hindsight2020]

If you buy it right, you can sell it right. I don't agree with the adage "If you have to ask you can't afford it" After I bought my Cherokee, I was POed that I bought it because I found that i could afford more plane given my situation. You can spend as much on an old Cessna or Cherokee as you want, they don't have to be expensive though (well slinging a rod at 200SMOH or something unexpected like that can force your hand) if you can get with a good shop and don't mind getting greasy every once in a while. I was spending too much on my Cherokee and realized, I should upgrade planes instead. I sold my Cherokee for more than I paid for it (though I did fix it up quite a bit) put 200 hrs on it and sold it in just over a week at a fair price. It was a well maintained, decent equipped honest plane at an honest price. When you move up in money and complexity, I think the market shrinks a bit and it can be a tougher sell these days. It's sad what twins are selling for. But a good solid 60's 172 outta sell fast if you have it priced right. I've found Vref to be 10% or so too high for what things are actually selling for. Most of the planes on the internet sites are overpriced, but most of the sellers are willing to negotiate.

Excellent post. I have the same perspective on the ownership of my warrior II. Some people like splurging on upgrades and throwing money at every little gremlin on these fixed prop trainers, but it doesn't have to be this way if your views on ownership are a lot more utilitarian. My ownership cost YTD considering Mx and fluids will be closer to 5K, barring an exploding engine and that's with me not really putting much elbow grease time. I'd probably put more of that time if it was experimental but that's for another thread. I do have the reserve funds to do a bare bones engine overhaul though and there's plenty of shops hurting for business, so that keeps me out of the "what if" guessing game of hobby killing surprise expenses. I also bought the thing cheap, so I can afford to sell cheap.

The one thing I haven't experienced wrt your post is the willingness of sellers out there to negotiate. Was that your experience in upgrading out of the cherokee? Because there's a mooney 20C down here in my field rotting away one year out of annual, flat tires and rotting rubber seals, and the guy thinks he can pull it off for 40K. Just crazyness. My experience is that people continue to bemoan having sunk too much money in upgrades they cannot properly return resale value on and they're paralyzed to the point of losing ALL the value minus salvage hull value. Quite a counterproductive way of looking at dispensing off the expense of an airplane if you ask me.

To the OP, I would consider the selling of an aircraft to be quite an illiquid process, even if priced right. It's not easy to unload in aggregate. Both my aircraft purchases have required traveling and a non-inconsequential outlay of cash, and I took heavy gambles (my gambles paid off but I don't rest on those laurels) in not having mechanics pre-buy either. Doing even more due dilligence would make the process even more protracted. In short, it's a PITA. If you're gonna go through the process, buy the last airplane you can afford, honestly.

Good luck!

 

[John Baker]

No has been my experience. I am now trying to sell my Warrior for about sixty percent less than what I have into it. About once a month I get someone asking for pictures or if I still have it for sale. I think they are hoping I've sold it so they can be disappointed they missed out.

I have over sixty thousand in the airplane that I bought five and a half years ago and have been trying to sell for over a year now. I'm asking 27 thousand for it, I might as well be asking 27 million.

I'm completely discouraged about this whole thing. If you are going to buy your own airplane, plan on flying it until it's nothing but scrap, there are no buyers for certificated GA airplanes, or they are few and far between. My guess is that for every five hundred GA airplanes for sale, there are about three buyers and about twenty lookers.

If your thinking of buying an airplane you might want to sell in a few years, it is probably a really bad idea. Do not do it.

-John

 

[Mafoo]

No has been my experience. I am now trying to sell my Warrior for about sixty percent less than what I have into it. About once a month I get someone asking for pictures or if I still have it for sale. I think they are hoping I've sold it so they can be disappointed they missed out.

I have over sixty thousand in the airplane that I bought five and a half years ago and have been trying to sell for over a year now. I'm asking 27 thousand for it, I might as well be asking 27 million.

I'm completely discouraged about this whole thing. If you are going to buy your own airplane, plan on flying it until it's nothing but scrap, there are no buyers for certificated GA airplanes, or they are few and far between. My guess is that for every five hundred GA airplanes for sale, there are about three buyers and about twenty lookers.

If your thinking of buying an airplane you might want to sell in a few years, it is probably a really bad idea. Do not do it.

-John

Sorry John, but you bought it the absolutely worst time you could.

If it makes you feel any better, I bought a house around the same time, and if I asked for $60,000 less then I currently owe on it, people would laugh at me.

It sucks, but right now is not a bad time to buy.

 

[wabower]

If you're trying to pinpoint the exact peak of the GA market, 5 years ago today would be as close as you could get.

 

[Electric]

Thanks for the suggestions. The reason I'm asking is that based on different estimates I could be spending anywhere from 7k to 27k per year. Even though I will be able to pay even the higher estimate, I will not be a very happy person.

 

[wabower]

With the exception of fuel price and non-scheduled MX, you should be able to peg your yearly costs very closely, depending on usage. A $20k swing is possible during a single year but unlikely to be repeated during a multiple-year ownership period.

Thanks for the suggestions. The reason I'm asking is that based on different estimates I could be spending anywhere from 7k to 27k per year. Even though I will be able to pay even the higher estimate, I will not be a very happy person.

 

[Henning]

So, I currently rent different kinds of airplanes, and I'm slowly looking into buying one. As a good pilot would do, I'm trying to look one step ahead, to find out how difficult it is to sell one.

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it typically take a long time to sell one?

Say I buy a c172 from the 60s and a few month later decide I need more of an airplane (or find out I can not afford to mainline even this one) will I be able to sell one reasonable quickly (in a month or so) without loosing a lot of money?

Are there any fees associate with selling an airplane?

Every time you step up an airplane the cost is at least $10k all in... Buy your last plane first and train in it from as early as possible.

 

[poadeleted21]

Every time you step up an airplane the cost is at least $10k all in... Buy your last plane first and train in it from as early as possible.

My rough calculation on my cherokee->bo upgrade is that it cost me approx $5K over had I just bought the Bo first. That 5K is a guesstimate based on the fuel burn in the Bonanza being 50% more and the MX being 50% more. As of right now I believe had I bought the Bonanza instead on the day I bought the Cherokee, I'd be $5000 bucks a head, more proficient in the plane and have more faith in the plane... but who knows. Maybe my time would have been less increasing the savings, but I mostly went flying for hours, not distance during that time.

 

[Henning]

My rough calculation on my cherokee->bo upgrade is that it cost me approx $5K over had I just bought the Bo first. That 5K is a guesstimate based on the fuel burn in the Bonanza being 50% more and the MX being 50% more. As of right now I believe had I bought the Bonanza instead on the day I bought the Cherokee, I'd be $5000 bucks a head, more proficient in the plane and have more faith in the plane... but who knows. Maybe my time would have been less increasing the savings, but I mostly went flying for hours, not distance during that time.

How much money did you make/lose on the Cherokee? What did it cost to buy beyond the price of the plane to get it home, all said and done? That is the cost of trading up, plus the loss of utility prior to the trade.

 

[Mafoo]

How much money did you make/lose on the Cherokee? What did it cost to buy beyond the price of the plane to get it home, all said and done? That is the cost of trading up, plus the loss of utility prior to the trade.

I get your point, but my last car was a new Porsche 911 convertible. If I waited for that to be my first car, I would have gone decades without a car.

 

[Henning]

I get your point, but my last car was a new Porsche 911 convertible. If I waited for that to be my first car, I would have gone decades without a car.

Yeah, but you could have been in a used one in school... Who made new a requirement?

 

[Mafoo]

Yeah, but you could have been in a used one in school... Who made new a requirement?

Why would I want the car I could afford in school now?

And I worked full time and never took out a student loan... the best I could afford was a Honda Integra with 130k miles on it.

 

[denverpilot]

The OP should just buy John's airplane. With proper inspections, of course.

 

[Velocity173]

If you're trying to pinpoint the exact peak of the GA market, 5 years ago today would be as close as you could get.

Yeah unfortunately that's when I bought my Glasair. I've got probably 75 grand into it and can't even get half that for it now. If you bought a plane back then you might as well just it til it's dead. Fortunately I'm not trying to get out of aircraft ownership and can easily afford keeping it.

 

[wabower]

If this incredibly moronic piece of advice is so great, why didn't you do it? Or get your last job first? Or buy your last house first? How is a first-time airplane buyer supposed to know whether his first plane will be the last one? Or whether he will trade up, down sideways or not at all? Or take in a partner and cut his costs by 30-40% or more? How does a buyer forecast his future needs to determine what his first/last/middle airplane should be? How do you calculate this ficticious $10k cost? If he buys well, why is the cost going to be $10,000?

Every time you step up an airplane the cost is at least $10k all in... Buy your last plane first and train in it from as early as possible.

 

[cujet]

I work in a private Corporate Flight Department. From time to time, I get to purchase and sell aircraft. Aircraft from the size of 2 place gliders, to stunt planes, to Gulfstream's.

All of which were purchased new and sell for half after a few short years. In many ways, it's not unlike car ownership. Where the cost of a new car is never recovered.

However, older aircraft are another matter.

To assist a sale, exterior condition is a large factor. People want to own something nice. Perceived value is important. You and I both know that airworthiness is all that really matters. But, it's impossible to convince someone to pay a premium for a technically perfect airplane that's looks horrible.

A few years back, we purchased an "ugly" experimental, high performance kitplane. We sanded the white paint down to a perfectly flat surface, then painted it candy apple metallic red, with flames! Wow did it look good. We installed a couple of cockpit goodies and doubled our money. Nothing else about the aircraft changed.

 

[wabower]

Buyers have been known to say that cosmetics don't matter and that they "can see past the bad paint and interior" to find the true quality of an airplane. Sellers can believe that if they so choose, but anybody who regularly watches the buy/sell process from the inside knows it's bullshlt.

Curb appeal is a huge advantage in airplane trades, in the same way it impacts, cars, boats, scooters and most other consumer items. Stocking dealers understand these dynamics, which is the reason that many such planes have new P&I. But these guys are better at buying them than the average toads who buy one airplane every 5-6 years (or in many cases every 10-15 years) and their budgets are based on spending the money necessary to make them market-ready so they can sell them quickly in order to buy another one and repeat the process.

While a seller can't be sure he will recoup the costs of cosmetic spiff-ups (market conditions followed by aircraft an engine time and condition and installed equipment) are the primary determinent in value) he can be sure his airplane will attract significant attention and can reasonably expect it to sell quicker than the 1970's and 80's cream-puffs with original P & I that his ad rates as 8.5 on a 10-point scale.

I work in a private Corporate Flight Department. From time to time, I get to purchase and sell aircraft. Aircraft from the size of 2 place gliders, to stunt planes, to Gulfstream's.

All of which were purchased new and sell for half after a few short years. In many ways, it's not unlike car ownership. Where the cost of a new car is never recovered.

However, older aircraft are another matter.

To assist a sale, exterior condition is a large factor. People want to own something nice. Perceived value is important. You and I both know that airworthiness is all that really matters. But, it's impossible to convince someone to pay a premium for a technically perfect airplane that's looks horrible.

A few years back, we purchased an "ugly" experimental, high performance kitplane. We sanded the white paint down to a perfectly flat surface, then painted it candy apple metallic red, with flames! Wow did it look good. We installed a couple of cockpit goodies and doubled our money. Nothing else about the aircraft changed.

 

[dell30rb]

I'm thinking of upgrading from our club's warrior 2's to the newer 172sp's. The aircraft all have GTN 650's, cruise about 115kts and the warrior actually carries a bit more. But the older pipers have original interiors and paint is all faded. I'm thinking the extra $20 per hour is worth it based on cosmetic reasons alone

 

[Neal Howard]

The only single engine planes that seem to be *regularly* holding their resale value in today's immediate market are Vans RVs and cropdusters.

 

[Henning]

If you know you have a minimum mission for a plane, if you can do it in $$$, you get into the plane that fills your mission as soon as you can and do your training in it. It will yield the best utility and safety per dollar spent.

Just giving the guy something to chew on.

 

[Jthamilton]

If you know you have a minimum mission for a plane, if you can do it in $$$, you get into the plane that fills your mission as soon as you can and do your training in it. It will yield the best utility and safety per dollar spent.

Just giving the guy something to chew on.

I agree completely. I have postponed my IR so I would learn in my own aircraft instead of a rented 172. Figure out your mission and intentions for owning one then look at your option. My first plane was a 1969 Cherokee 6, great for hauling a family. Problem was it mostly just hauled me around locally. It cost a lot in insurance and fuel but I could land the damn thing better than most with all the touch and gos I did.

If your wondering about how easy it is to resell one maybe you should wait a little. No offense but if there are doubts no harm in waiting. On the flip side having your own aircraft is an incredible experience. It's a great time to buy. I just purchased a 182 40k below vref.

Good luck, I wish you the best

 

[Mafoo]

Curb appeal is a huge advantage in airplane trades, in the same way it impacts, cars, boats, scooters and most other consumer items.

Good, because I could truly give a rats ass what it looks like. I have the ugliest boat on the lake to prove it

This means I should get a better deal when the times comes to buy one (like I did with the boat).

 

[Henning]

Good, because I could truly give a rats ass what it looks like. I have the ugliest boat on the lake to prove it

This means I should get a better deal when the times comes to buy one (like I did with the boat).

Yeah sure, a 160 HP Tri Pacer is a nice capable plane you can get cheap because it was carved from the ugly tree.

 

[Velocity173]

Good, because I could truly give a rats ass what it looks like. I have the ugliest boat on the lake to prove it

This means I should get a better deal when the times comes to buy one (like I did with the boat).

You don't care what the plane looks like? It's just not curb appeal. If the paint and interior aren't kept up then how do you think it'll be mechanically? If your boat loses an engine you can paddle back to shore. If your aircraft loses an engine the consequences are much worse. Plus it's just personal pride in ownership.

 

[Mafoo]

You don't care what the plane looks like? It's just not curb appeal. If the paint and interior aren't kept up then how do you think it'll be mechanically? If your boat loses an engine you can paddle back to shore. If your aircraft loses an engine the consequences are much worse. Plus it's just personal pride in ownership.

I don't want it to be falling apart. But by no means does it need to have a new paint job.

There is a difference between kept up, and curb appeal. I am looking at RV 6's at the moment. Some have fully tricked out interiors, with fancy paint jobs, and others have nicely done sparse interiors with the most basic of paint jobs.

Everything else equal, I will just take the least expensive one.

And not sure what circles you run in, but pride in mine would be just owning a plane

 

[wabower]

Check TAP and other sales sites to see how many ugly ones are featured.

I don't want it to be falling apart. But by no means does it need to have a new paint job.

There is a difference between kept up, and curb appeal. I am looking at RV 6's at the moment. Some have fully tricked out interiors, with fancy paint jobs, and others have nicely done sparse interiors with the most basic of paint jobs.

Everything else equal, I will just take the least expensive one.

And not sure what circles you run in, but pride in mine would be just owning a plane

 

[Mafoo]

Check TAP and other sales sites to see how many ugly ones are featured.

I never said I was the norm. I was saying I am happy I'm not, so I can get a better deal.

 

[Velocity173]

I don't want it to be falling apart. But by no means does it need to have a new paint job.

There is a difference between kept up, and curb appeal. I am looking at RV 6's at the moment. Some have fully tricked out interiors, with fancy paint jobs, and others have nicely done sparse interiors with the most basic of paint jobs.

Everything else equal, I will just take the least expensive one.

And not sure what circles you run in, but pride in mine would be just owning a plane

I guess we have different definitions of curb appeal. Sure a 10-15 yr old RV6 with a simple paint job and interior has curb appeal. I'm talking about aircraft where the aircraft have been rotting on a ramp. The paint job is faded and chipping, the interior ratty, cracks on plastic and windows etc. not only does it lack curb appeal but could have maint issues as well. My aircraft are by no means show birds but I'm out at the airport every weekend cleaning and touching up paint. That's what I mean by pride in ownership. Just like a mechanic who keeps a clean shop. I'd take him over someone who's hanger is a mess.

 

[Bob Noel]

Just like a mechanic who keeps a clean shop. I'd take him over someone who's hanger is a mess.

I'm more interested in the quality of the mechanic's work.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm more interested in the quality of the mechanic's work.

Yeah if you already know how good the guys work is from references. That's not always the case. If I'm choosing between two shops that I haven't heard anything on, I'm gonna take the guy that maintains a clean well organized hanger over the guy who is an absolute mess. I learned that from my last airfield in Alabama. The guy's hanger was in complete disarray and it reflected in his lack of attention to detail. He almost killed me twice due to his negligence. Now compare that to the mech I use now. His hanger floor you could eat off of and he treats my plane like his own. How you look and how you keep up your work area is sometimes a good indicator of work ethic. I don't know maybe it's just a military thing.

 

[drgwentzel]

So, I currently rent different kinds of airplanes, and I'm slowly looking into buying one. As a good pilot would do, I'm trying to look one step ahead, to find out how difficult it is to sell one.

Assuming I want to sell a single engine airplane for its market price, does it typically take a long time to sell one?

Say I buy a c172 from the 60s and a few month later decide I need more of an airplane (or find out I can not afford to mainline even this one) will I be able to sell one reasonable quickly (in a month or so) without loosing a lot of money?

Are there any fees associate with selling an airplane?

Here you go:

Buy a 60K 172 with midtime engine and finance it at 6.25% for 15 Years: payment $530.95.

Put it in a hanger at $400.00 per month (you could tie it down at 70.00 per month, but then you can increase maintenance and shorten the time to re-paint it and most importantly, when you go to re-sell it...you can NOT say "Always Hangared" which reduces re-sale value. Plus, these things LEAK!! Then they smell!!!

Insure it for about 1,100.00 per year or 92.00 per month

Annual it at 1,200.00 (inspecition ONLY) is 100.00 per month

THESE ARE YOUR FIXED COSTS BEFORE YOU EVER GET OFF THE GROUND! $1,122.95 / Month

Figure 8.5 GPH burn @ 5.80/gallon or $49.30 per hour for fuel

Amortize 2000 hour engine already at 1000 hours, at $24,000.00 for rebuild, shipping, removal, and re-install in 1000 hours remaining is 24.00 dollars per hour (this is conservative!)

Figure $30.00 per hour maintenance amortization (and TRUST ME THIS is conservative. It's more like 45.00 dollars per hour. I have the stats to prove it.)

Therefore, it will cost you $103.30 per hour to fly your own plane and remain even.

Figure a typical 172 costs $156.00 per hour to rent and than you will fly it 100 hours per year, it will cost you: $1,300.00 per month to rent and to own the same plane it will cost you about: $1,983.78 per month flying it the same 100 hours.

Every hour you put on the airframe and engine will reduce it's value by about 28.00 dollars or so.

Just some conservative numbers from an aircraft owner for over 10 years.

Gene

 

[poadeleted21]

Check TAP and other sales sites to see how many ugly ones are featured.

I went and personally looked at a DOG that's on the front page of barnstormers right now. If they give it to the next owner, he's getting screwed. Whoever buys it is going to get taken to the wood shed, they have an IA willing to lie through his teeth and fracture every reg he needs to in order to sell it . Has nice interior though, too bad it needs a new engine. They're selling it as a fresh factory overhaul. The sucker that buys it believing that is an NTSB report in the making. OTOH my plane was also a "featured" plane on the front page of Barnstormers. The interior is so-so, the panel is blah and the paint needs a little help. Realistically I'd call it 6/10 most sellers would say 8/10, it looks better in pictures than in person, nothing to be ashamed of, but nothing to write home about. I believe you just buy your way to the featured section.

 

[Bob Noel]

Yeah if you already know how good the guys work is from references. That's not always the case. If I'm choosing between two shops that I haven't heard anything on, I'm gonna take the guy that maintains a clean well organized hanger over the guy who is an absolute mess. I learned that from my last airfield in Alabama. The guy's hanger was in complete disarray and it reflected in his lack of attention to detail. He almost killed me twice due to his negligence. Now compare that to the mech I use now. His hanger floor you could eat off of and he treats my plane like his own. How you look and how you keep up your work area is sometimes a good indicator of work ethic. I don't know maybe it's just a military thing.

Military thing? maybe, but I've seen enough counter examples to not pay any attention to the work area. Aircraft maintenance isn't a hospital.

If I don't have references, then the guy is a complete unknown regardless of his sparkling clean hanger floor.

 

[wabower]

Yeah if you already know how good the guys work is from references. That's not always the case. If I'm choosing between two shops that I haven't heard anything on, I'm gonna take the guy that maintains a clean well organized hanger over the guy who is an absolute mess. I learned that from my last airfield in Alabama. The guy's hanger was in complete disarray and it reflected in his lack of attention to detail. He almost killed me twice due to his negligence. Now compare that to the mech I use now. His hanger floor you could eat off of and he treats my plane like his own. How you look and how you keep up your work area is sometimes a good indicator of work ethic. I don't know maybe it's just a military thing.

I think you nailed it.

 

[somorris]

But these guys are better at buying them than the average toads who buy one airplane every 5-6 years (or in many cases every 10-15 years)

Ribet .