Scary Landing / Confidence Takes It

Keep in mind Go arounds are all fine and good. But try to learn from each attempted landing. Let's just say I did 4-5 Go arounds and my CFI said "Really?! - Are we going to land the next time around" That made me want to land it. Do go around as neccessary but trust your gut if you think it's good.
 
'Sounds like the FWA Ariel solo episode...
One important thing, learned from similar events: remember what you learned in the Aeronautical Decision Making section about RESIGNATION. It kinda sounds like you were a passenger on the way to an accident, resigned to whatever outcome was playing out. Like others have said above: you are in control, you have options, you can think and react, and you can change the outcome.
 
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Sight picture is rather different, however.

This is true and why practice in various configurations would be useful. Every six months I have to demonstrate a no flap landing in the simulator for that reason.
 
This is true and why practice in various configurations would be useful. Every six months I have to demonstrate a no flap landing in the simulator for that reason.

What is your company policy/op spec on the use of flaps on landing? What circumstances do they cover where less than full use of flaps is to be used? (barring of course flap failures)
 
At SFI and FSI, no-flap is a checkride requirement without respect to SOP, as is a circle-to-land.

What is your company policy/op spec on the use of flaps on landing? What circumstances do they cover where less than full use of flaps is to be used? (barring of course flap failures)
 
At SFI and FSI, no-flap is a checkride requirement without respect to SOP, as is a circle-to-land.

Wasn't my question, I understand that the box everything goes including non standard ops.

I'm asking what the company protocols are for normal passenger carrying flights. Interested if any of the normal protocols call for reduced flaps for gusty or cross wind conditions.
 
Wasn't my question, I understand that the box everything goes including non standard ops.

I'm asking what the company protocols are for normal passenger carrying flights. Interested if any of the normal protocols call for reduced flaps for gusty or cross wind conditions.
The faster the airframe - the more you'd be biting yourself in the ass reducing flaps for gusty or crosswind conditions.
 
The faster the airframe - the more you'd be biting yourself in the ass reducing flaps for gusty or crosswind conditions.


What I would think. Thing is, I wanted to see if there was an opsec that would call for it and under what conditions. It's usually engineers & test pilots that figure that crap out using real measurements for those kinds of documents.
 
Thing is, I wanted to see if there was an opsec that would call for it and under what conditions. It's usually engineers & test pilots that figure that crap out using real measurements for those kinds of documents.
That's not something that would be in the OpsSpecs.
 
Could be in SOP's.

Ahh, either way, I was looking for an official reference from somewhere credible that recommended reduced flap setting for crosswinds or gusty winds so I could maybe find a note on how they worked it out. I recall when I did a max X-Wind (54kts IIRC) in AA's 777 sim, the procedure called full flaps.
 
Ahh, either way, I was looking for an official reference from somewhere credible that recommended reduced flap setting for crosswinds or gusty winds so I could maybe find a note on how they worked it out. I recall when I did a max X-Wind (54kts IIRC) in AA's 777 sim, the procedure called full flaps.
I think that would be something found in the AFM, to include the checklist. If it says something like "Flaps - as required" it would be your choice. If it says "Flaps - [whatever the full flap setting is]" you would go by that.
 
I think that would be something found in the AFM, to include the checklist. If it says something like "Flaps - as required" it would be your choice. If it says "Flaps - [whatever the full flap setting is]" you would go by that.

Ok, thing I'm looking for is one that specifies or recommends to use a reduced setting.
 
Ok, thing I'm looking for is one that specifies or recommends to use a reduced setting.
The company I work for does not micromanage the flap settings but they expect you to follow the manufacturer's recommendations which we learn at FSI. There are situations which call for less than full flaps such as landing single engine but otherwise we land with full flaps regardless of the wind. Now you have one data point.
 
The company I work for does not micromanage the flap settings but they expect you to follow the manufacturer's recommendations which we learn at FSI. There are situations which call for less than full flaps such as landing single engine but otherwise we land with full flaps regardless of the wind. Now you have one data point.

Thanks, so yours has a reduced setting to cope with OEI scenarios, makes sense, I guess that you have positive SE go around/missed approach capabilities right?
 
What is your company policy/op spec on the use of flaps on landing? What circumstances do they cover where less than full use of flaps is to be used? (barring of course flap failures)


Sorry, I wasn't ignoring this thread, I just missed it.

To answer your question it's as others have stated. It's certianly not in the opspecs. It's more in the flight standards manaule. For SE then partial flaps are mandated. Icing conditions is another time partial flaps are required. Otherwise it's PIC discretion. They do suggest partial flaps for noise abatement.

A Piaggio is naturally a squirrely plane on touchdown to begin with so I'm not a fan of adding speed to its already high approach speed. Some guys like a higher speed in windy / gusty conditions. The faster you go the less of a percentage the wind and wind gust is. But that's them.

The procedures allow for pilot discretion in some areas like different wind types.
 
The company I work for does not micromanage the flap settings but they expect you to follow the manufacturer's recommendations which we learn at FSI. There are situations which call for less than full flaps such as landing single engine but otherwise we land with full flaps regardless of the wind. Now you have one data point.

Your policies are consistent with numerous 135 and 91 flight departments for which I have flown or acted as TCE/Check airman.
 
OP here. Well, I didn't quit and passed my checkride today. Not really happy about how I did certain things during the checkride. DPE pulled the power during S turns at 1,000 feet. I was over a real nice looking field, and immediately setup to land there. Set it up well, and was then told to go full power, etc. DPE then asked if I had seen the landing strip of to the side. MF'er!!! He said he wasn't even sure would could have made the strip given that we were so low. When went back to try to simulate where we were the first time he pulled and and did it again. Was able to make the strip. I had put 20 degrees of flaps in to get her down to land at the strip. After putting in full power, he had me put the foggles on an immediately put me into an unusual attitude which I got out of ok. The he asked me to fly to an uncontrolled airport about 20 miles away for with the foggles. No VOR at this airport, so I dial in a VOR to the east, and try to fly in using that and DME to estimate where I am. I get my sectional, estimate the radial, and then dial it on on the OBS. Problem is that I dial then radial from the VOR instead of the reciprocal "to" heading. He points it out, and it is fixed. Damn, I know better than that. So, we continue cruising for a few minutes. He mentions something g about our airspeed being pretty low, but nothing clicks. Then look over and see that I still have the 20 degrees in flaps in. Damn. By this time I'm pretty rattled. Take them out, continue to the airport, and do good on my landings. I wasn't sure if I had passed or not, and didn't ask him until he handed me my temporary license.

Not really happy about my performance, but I guess it was good enough. Doing the navigation to the airport without a VOR and having to look up radials, etc. on the sectional while under the hood is not fun. Looking back, I'm not sure if I forgot to take the flaps out after the simulated emergency landing, or whether he put the flaps in while I was putting the foggles on when he put me in the unusual attitude. In any event, the foggles/unusual attitude right after the simulated emergency landing before I could get the flaps out in a normal procedure really screwed me up.

So, my big lesson today is don't push the envelope with weather, and don't fly into the clouds!!
 
and passed my checkride today.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

(And the things that you did on your checkride that you weren't happy about? I bet you learned a lot from having those experiences). Good job! Congratulations PILOT!
 
Needless to say, my confidence took a real hit today. Anyone out there have any similar stories to make me feel better. :). I can't imagine quitting this close, and I probably won't, but damn today sucked.

What you had wasn't a game-ender. It was what we like to call a "learning experience."

A Piaggio is naturally a squirrely plane on touchdown to begin with so I'm not a fan of adding speed to its already high approach speed.

If you mean the Avanti, I never found that to be the case. It's a very simple airplane that lands quite nicely.
The faster the airframe - the more you'd be biting yourself in the ass reducing flaps for gusty or crosswind conditions.

Not necessarily. We often use variable flap settings for landing, depending on several factors. We also vary the flaps for takeoff.

Even at our max landing weight, going from the second-to-last flap setting of Flaps 25, to the last one, Flaps 30, produces only a 5 knot reduction in our final speed.

One can't really compare one specific aircraft against a different aircraft, however. Nor can one compare a small aircraft with a large, swept wing aircraft. In the airplane I fly for my day job, for example, one can land in a crab; the most important thing is getting the wings level, not ensuring the long axis of the airplane is aligned. In a conventional gear airplane, getting the airplane properly aligned during landing is a lot more important than whether the wings are level. Flaps in one airplane may mean or do something entirely different. Generally in the airplane I fly, we land with flaps set for the landing data as calculated, and for the runway length, not for wind gusts, although we do apply takeoff flaps according to the wind gusts. Windshear brings a mandatory greater takeoff flap setting, for us.

In a light airplane, sometimes reduced flaps are preferable. Gusty winds, weight, aircraft type, field conditions, pilot preferences and capabilities, etc, all contribute.

In a light airplane where spoilers aren't available, raising the flaps on landing is often preferable in gusty crosswinds; this puts more weight on the gear and makes the airplane less susceptible to gusts. It makes the brakes more effective, and reduces the chances of flat-spotting the tires in aircraft without antiskid. Some airline types have a fit about raising the flaps before clearing the runway, but it's a valid, viable technique that I've often used in light aircraft in gusty conditions and on rough fields (to protect the flaps). It's also a very common practice when landing some conventional gear (tailwheel) aircraft; it gets the tailwheel down faster and makes the all-important transition from airplane to ground vehicle.

I've had company policies allowing or preferring reduced flap landings under certain circumstances.

Nope. TAFs are an educated weather-guesser's best guess. Every weather-guesser has a bad day or three.

Try this sometime. Most local news is really just regurgitated NWS forecasts. Track for two weeks how many times they absolutely NAIL the forecast, including wind speed. Or just track it via a cheap NOAA All-Hazards radio.

The failure rate is close to 70% around here. If I had a failure rate that high in my day job, I'd be fired.

TAFs and other predictive weather products are based on computerized world data models, as well as local inputs. Globally, I find that forecasts tend to be quite accurate, for the most part.

We predicate our dispatch landing performance and most of what we do on the accuracy of forecasts, including winds-aloft information, and you might be surprised to learn just how accurate it tends to be.
 
Congratulations on passing your checkride! Wait until you start flying a retract and wondering why you're going slowly.
 
OP here. Well, I didn't quit and passed my checkride today.

Good job. Your certificate will look just like mine did when I got it after the first checkride. ;) No flight is perfect, the important thing is to keep flying and keep learning.
 
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