Funkeruski
Pre-takeoff checklist
So are you guys saying that I don't have to remove this tattoo that I got on my left bicep a couple of weeks ago after all?
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Scary Landing / Confidence Takes It
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Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
I would be curious to know how much flap you had hanging out. In gusty crosswinds I use 10 or none, to give me better control. The increase in speed isn't that critical, and when you set your upwind wheel on the runway you still have enough speed to maintain good directional control.
Why is that?
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
Higher speed = more airflow over the control surfaces, plus with the higher stall speed you don't get as much float from gusts. (IMHO)
You're missing a few things and making the situation more dangerous than it has to be. You can still fly the higher speed if you desire with full flaps in by just adding some throttle, and when you do that, you'll find that the increased prop wash across the tail will give you even greater control authority increase (and more stability as well) at a lower speed than you were landing at with O-10 flaps in. Next is slowing down. With flaps 10 and the extra speed you've got way more lift going on with little increase in drag which means you you are light on your wheels longer which reduces your braking effectiveness and increases your susceptibility to being blown off the runway and at a greater speed. You are also risking floating, ballooning, porpoising and all those other fun bouncy things that in a strong crosswind puts planes on their backs in the grass. Since kinetic energy (the stuff that causes damage and death) increases with the square of speed, any thing that goes wrong will have a much larger portion of damage that comes with it.
With full flaps you can add throttle using mechanical energy to maintain your control and then pull it as soon as your mains touch and you will stop flying and with full flaps, the drag added is greater than the lift added so it's helping you slow down from high speed rather than hindering you like 10* flaps does.
You use flaps to regulate lift, you use flaps to regulate drag, you DO NOT use flaps to regulate speed, you use pitch and power for that.
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My instructor said that if it is gusty I should land with 10 degrees (as opposed to 20 degrees) of flaps and that will make me less susceptible to catching a gust... so that's what ( (we) do when it's gusty.
What say you?
alfadog
Final Approach
All well and good; but see my comment re skill set above. Students bounce airplanes a lot harder and higher than old hands. Students are not quick on the power, they tend to "set it and forget it". It is a good idea for students to limit themselves to less than full flaps in a strong crosswind until their skills come up to where they are not behind the airplane.
Hey! I resemble that remark!
alfadog
Final Approach
The only time it is too late to go around is when you do not have sufficient runway to clear the obstacles on departure. If the area beyond the end is clear, you can get it off in ground effect at least 10 kt early and accelerate to climb out speed. Obviously, do not do this if there is doubt but the point is that if you have enough distance to stop, more than likely have plenty to take off again from any point before you have firmly planted the wheels and if you have firmly planted the wheels, you should not need to go around.
Yesterday, I was heavy in the Luscombe and cleared for a touch and go. After I had it firmly planted, I was not comfortable with the distance remaining and pulled off the runway. Taxied back with tower, took off, and the tower, being on the ball and without me asking, cleared me for the option instead of a touch and go.
alfadog
Final Approach
Hey! I resemble that remark!
And by students I include myself
I am reaching the point where the use of the throttle on landing is as natural to me as using the elevator. Meaning use it as needed, when needed.Yesterday I flew with an old hand in the Luscombe and he wanted to show me what he called "splitting the controls". This is a little dance you do, first on the left wheel, then on the right. Rolling along tail high on one wheel and holding left aileron, you bring the tail down, making the ailerons more effective, roll on to the right wheel and bring the tail back up. Good training drill but not easy in a slight crosswind. Got a bit of wind under the upwind wing when I tried it
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Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
Your choice. But adding throttle with full flaps gets you flying again. And when landing my throttle is nearly closed, so it isn't producing much wind. I see landings as an exercise in energy control, and when my wheels touch the plane is done flying, a stalled wing is a stalled wing no matter what the speed, so braking is effective. If there is enough wind to "blow me off the runway" then I have made a bad decision already. Maybe this technique isn't appropriate in a training environment, but adding extra speed in a gusty crosswind is one of my SOPs.
wabower
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Wayne
I'd say you could fly with a great many instructors who would disagree, including quite a few on this forum.
My instructor said that if it is gusty I should land with 10 degrees (as opposed to 20 degrees) of flaps and that will make me less susceptible to catching a gust... so that's what ( (we) do when it's gusty.
I figured that. My point in asking the question really, was to find out why people agree or disagree, so that I could learn something.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Oh Geez, THIS debate AGAIN.
FWIW, my Cessna POH say minimum flaps necessary but doesn't define that. I like 30deg flap landings. I don't care much for fast ones.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
My instructor said that if it is gusty I should land with 10 degrees (as opposed to 20 degrees) of flaps and that will make me less susceptible to catching a gust... so that's what ( (we) do when it's gusty.
Hmm... What's your normal flaps setting for landing in the 172?
Less flaps in gusty conditions can help, but normally I'd say you'd use 20 degrees instead of the 30 or 40 that a 172 might have.
I do the "set it and forget it" at 20 degrees for landing. I don't land with 40-- that scares me for a go around. Even 30 makes me a wee bit nervous for a go around, although I know it's possible.
Anyway, my flight school teaches landing with 20.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Huh. OK do it that way if your examiner does it that way. Then once you pass, get some experience landing with full flaps.
Do you do that even for a short-field landing or have you not worked on those yet?
Our school teaches full flaps for every landing except where gusty winds come into play.
Do you do that even for a short-field landing or have you not worked on those yet?
Our school teaches full flaps for every landing except where gusty winds come into play.
No, for a short field landing it's full flaps.
You've done a go-around with 40 degrees of flaps? I'm guessing that you hold it in a fairly level attitude until airspeed is high enough and you begin to show a positive rate of climb, and then begin to raise the flaps?
I can only provide my thoughts on the subject-
- Less flaps-> stall speed higher, so the wings stop producing lift at a higher speed
- Because the wings stall at a higher speed, the wings stop producing lift so you won't 'float' down the runway.
- You're landing into the wind, so if the wind is strong, your ground speed isn't that high. I find very few direct crosswinds, probably because they design airports around weather patterns.
- Until you are on the ground, the control surfaces are more effective due to the greater air-flow.
- Landing a C-150 with 30° flaps in a 25 knot wind down the runway makes for a long final approach with a lot of throttle. Or your final looks something like a that of Harrier jet from the ground- as much vertical as horizontal movement. It's hard to see over the nose.
Not Tim, but yes, I have, in an older C-172. Climb away, then raise the flaps in stages like you describe.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Yes, the airplane will accelerate, and climb, and you push forward a bit to keep the speed up, and at positive rate, you reduce the flaps one little bit at a time.
Flaps 30 (in the newer cessnas) is a non-event on the go-around. You just have to be ready for the pitch-up and put forward pressure on the yoke as needed.
Ok. Thank you. And thanks for the list that you posted above. That's helpful!
Yes, that I have felt. And had to fight with... "no nose, you are staying DOWN."
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Yes. on bigger airplanes like the 182, you can get even more aggressive pitch-ups, but you just need to be ready for it. Trim is your friend.
Trim is, indeed, my friend. I learned that on the "your nose is staying DOWN" fight.
My instructor said that if it is gusty I should land with 10 degrees (as opposed to 20 degrees) of flaps and that will make me less susceptible to catching a gust... so that's what ( (we) do when it's gusty.
Do you think what I said above changes because you asked?
Don't you mean as opposed to 30 or 40? Don't tell me you do a normal landing flaps 20?
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No Mr Duct Tape, I do not. I was wondering if you might want to explain why this might not be a good idea.Do you think what I said above changes because you asked?
Let me go back and re-read what you wrote.
wabower
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Wayne
And you don't need all of the power on the first push.
Ok what you said seems like a good idea and what my instructor said seems to make sense too... so I was thinking out loud (my first mistake) and trying to think thru which would be better/safer for me to practice.My instructor said that if it is gusty I should land with 10 degrees (as opposed to 20 degrees) of flaps and that will make me less susceptible to catching a gust... so that's what ( (we) do when it's gusty.
Yes, I do. (A normal landing with flaps 20).
alfadog
Final Approach
I meant "set and forget" the throttle, i.e. the CFI's mantra "once the runway is assured, reduce throttle to idle". That is fine for learning but once the training wheels are off, better "once the runway is assured, operate throttle as desired."
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Less flaps means more energy at touchdown - that's simple physics. More energy means higher brake and tire wear. More energy can also mean significantly greater energy in the event of an accident - the kinetic energy varies as the square of the speed.
Because of this, the airplane flying handbook recommends landing with full flaps at the lowest energy possible.
Now, I'm not saying your school is "WRONG" to teach normal landings with 20 degrees of flaps. That might be their starting point for students while they're getting comfortable with the airplane in the last foot of the approach. And since they teach you full flaps for a short field, they obviously do teach full flap landings.
I'd be interested in why they choose 20 degrees for a normal landing.
For comparison, we teach all landings with full flaps, and the difference between a "normal" and "short" landing is typically that the final approach leg is at 1.3 Vs0 for a normal landing and 1.2 Vs0 for a short-field landing.
Because of this, the airplane flying handbook recommends landing with full flaps at the lowest energy possible.
Now, I'm not saying your school is "WRONG" to teach normal landings with 20 degrees of flaps. That might be their starting point for students while they're getting comfortable with the airplane in the last foot of the approach. And since they teach you full flaps for a short field, they obviously do teach full flap landings.
I'd be interested in why they choose 20 degrees for a normal landing.
For comparison, we teach all landings with full flaps, and the difference between a "normal" and "short" landing is typically that the final approach leg is at 1.3 Vs0 for a normal landing and 1.2 Vs0 for a short-field landing.
Also, landing with full flaps on a gusty day and then needing to do a go around would probably make me really nervous... having all that extra "wing" out there to catch the gusts. I know, this probably sounds really stupid. But I'm open to learning why this is stupid, if it indeed is.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I teach students to do landings full flaps no matter the wind in all the airplanes I've instructed primary students in them. I have them practice partial flaps and no flaps but that is just incase they had a flap failure.
I've never flown a type that I won't land full flaps in - all the time - don't care what the wind is. I've done full flap landings in winds gusting to 50 knots which had a 30 knot component.
And a go around is no problem with that configuration? I guess it wouldn't be, as long as you could hold it level while the airspeed goes up, right?
Tracey, that seems odd to me because all the planes I've flown do 30° or 40° flaps, but some planes may have less flaps. What plane are you using?
A 172, it goes to 30 degrees of flaps, we dont' land with full flaps.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Going around in most certified airplanes with full flaps is a non issue in most conditions else it wouldn't be a certified airplane. See FAR Part 23 for all the rules (lots of our airplanes were certified under CAR3 but its pretty close).
If they didn't intend on you being able to use full flaps for landing they wouldn't have put them there.
Always best off to land with the least amount of energy, and the most drag, which means full flaps. We're flying -- not driving a race car.
Your instructor needs some training or he's just a whacko. A normal landing in that 172 is with 30 degrees of flaps and that is what he should be teaching.Tracey said:
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Tracey, I'm being very careful not to use the word "stupid". I don't like to criticize other's teaching until I understand the reasons for it.
It's not the way I was taught, or the way I was taught to teach it, but I'm not gonna call it dumb until I've walked a mile in your CFI's moccasins.
It's not the way I was taught, or the way I was taught to teach it, but I'm not gonna call it dumb until I've walked a mile in your CFI's moccasins.