Scary landing at JFK in A321 yesterday

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Orange
I was coming back to JFK on Jetblue yesterday (9/25) morning. One of the scariest landings in a commercial airliner for me.

I was litening to the tower on approach. Winds were 120 @ 17G27. Clouds down to 600. RVR5000-6000. We landed 4R, so a nasty direct crosswind. The wings were rocking back and forth like I've never experienced before. The landing was a good crosswind landing with right mains hitting first. At least that's what I felt. It was also very wet since it was raining pretty hard.

As I was deplaning, the captain walked out right in front of me. I called him and told him nice landing in that crosswind. We talked for a minute. He said that they were set up for autoland but had to go manual due to the conditions.

I can see why they are professional pilots.
 
orange said:
I was coming back to JFK on Jetblue yesterday (9/25) morning. One of the scariest landings in a commercial airliner for me.

I was litening to the tower on approach. Winds were 120 @ 17G27. Clouds down to 600. RVR5000-6000. We landed 4R, so a nasty direct crosswind. The wings were rocking back and forth like I've never experienced before. The landing was a good crosswind landing with right mains hitting first. At least that's what I felt. It was also very wet since it was raining pretty hard.

As I was deplaning, the captain walked out right in front of me. I called him and told him nice landing in that crosswind. We talked for a minute. He said that they were set up for autoland but had to go manual due to the conditions.

I can see why they are professional pilots.
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Indeed. It sounds like the crosswind exceeded the autoland limitations.
That said, that weather is not truly autoland criteria, but different airlines impose different times when you must prep for an autoland.
 
What he didn’t tell you is that they barely pulled that one off. That was your lucky day.
 
For those of us who know pretty much nothing about big iron... how is autoland normally used, and what (in general) are its limitations?
 
What’s really fun is after a good landing is to tell the pilot “damn, that auto land sure is smooth”. If he replies that he hand flew it just reply “uh huh” and wink. Drives the bus drivers crazy.
 
DaleB said:
For those of us who know pretty much nothing about big iron... how is autoland normally used, and what (in general) are its limitations?
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Autoland is generally a poor visibility way to get the airplane on the ground. Each airline is different, at my airline, for a CAT II approach (1600 RVR to 1000 RVR) an autoland is recommended (required for 1000 RVR). Autoland is required for a CAT III approach (700 RVR to 300 RVR).

For my airplane (757) the max headwind for an autoland is 25 knots. Max tailwind is 15 knots. Max crosswind for an autoland for my airplane is 25 knots. Max crosswind for a CAT II/III autoland is 15 knots.
 
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DaleB said:
For those of us who know pretty much nothing about big iron... how is autoland normally used, and what (in general) are its limitations?
Click to expand...
Auto land is typically used in low ceiling and/or visibility situations. Times when the weather is below 200 ceiling and viz less than half a mile. There are certain airplane and ILS requirements. Also wind restrictions. Our wind restrictions on the 737 are 15 kts headwind, 10 kts crosswind and 5 kts tailwind.
 
And I should say, in the real world, CAT IIs are worthless unless you are forced to do one because of the runway or airplane. If I'm thinking of doing a CAT II, I'll just brief and fly the CAT III. I'll plan on the CAT I, unless the vis is close (what's close... I don't know). If the vis is close to CAT I mins, I'm going to brief and fly the CAT III, if able. I don't want to get caught in CAT I mins, not break out and have to go around because I didn't brief an autoland.
 
SkyDog58 said:
What’s really fun is after a good landing is to tell the pilot “damn, that auto land sure is smooth”. If he replies that he hand flew it just reply “uh huh” and wink. Drives the bus drivers crazy.
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And the bus drivers just roll their eyes at the ignorant know-it-all passengers because they know that the auto land computers are programmed to provide a fairly firm (not hard) landing to facilitate wheel spin up and all the associated benefits that provides. A pilot can occasionally make a really smooth landing but the auto land landings are usually very consistent.
 
Sluggo63 said:
And I should say, in the real world, CAT IIs are worthless unless you are forced to do one because of the runway or airplane. If I'm thinking of doing a CAT II, I'll just brief and fly the CAT III. I'll plan on the CAT I, unless the vis is close (what's close... I don't know). If the vis is close to CAT I mins, I'm going to brief and fly the CAT III, if able. I don't want to get caught in CAT I mins, not break out and have to go around because I didn't brief an autoland.
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Bingo!
 
Sluggo63 said:
And I should say, in the real world, CAT IIs are worthless unless you are forced to do one because of the runway or airplane. If I'm thinking of doing a CAT II, I'll just brief and fly the CAT III. I'll plan on the CAT I, unless the vis is close (what's close... I don't know). If the vis is close to CAT I mins, I'm going to brief and fly the CAT III, if able. I don't want to get caught in CAT I mins, not break out and have to go around because I didn't brief an autoland.
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I disagree, although I realize what you’re saying, may as well fly a CAT III if equipped and qualified for it p. I flew CRJs and we did Cat II and it got us in quite a few times. Of course we didn’t fly CATIIIs nor equipped for it.
 
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Years ago, before I knew anything about aviation, I was on a commercial flight to Las Vegas. The winds were high that day, and the pilot made two attempts at landing, but aborted both. The third attempt was even worse. I remember the plane really swaying back and forth.

After the third attempt, he comes on the intercom and says something like the winds are too high, "the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up" (his own words), and that they're diverting to Palm Springs instead. I found out later that day was one of the windiest Las Vegas had seen in many years. Even driving to Las Vegas, my car was being swayed back and forth on the road.

I'll never forget that flight. Hope to never have another like it. When a commercial pilot admits the hairs on his neck are standing up, I guess the pucker factor is pretty high.
 
LoneAspen said:
Years ago, before I knew anything about aviation, I was on a commercial flight to Las Vegas. The winds were high that day, and the pilot made two attempts at landing, but aborted both. The third attempt was even worse. I remember the plane really swaying back and forth.

After the third attempt, he comes on the intercom and says something like the winds are too high, "the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up" (his own words), and that they're diverting to Palm Springs instead. I found out later that day was one of the windiest Las Vegas had seen in many years. Even driving to Las Vegas, my car was being swayed back and forth on the road.

I'll never forget that flight. Hope to never have another like it. When a commercial pilot admits the hairs on his neck are standing up, I guess the pucker factor is pretty high.
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I was nonreving home one day from ATL on Delta when the Capt came out of the cockpit and used the FA’s PA, facing the passengers. Said there were thunderstorms in the area and he was delaying the flight because he was a “devout coward”. The passengers loved it!
 
last time... and I mean, THE LAST TIME, I flew with Allegiant, I was kind of dosing when we "landed." I swear, we hit so hard, I was sure we crashed-landed... Banged my head on the window and scared the C.R.A.P. out of me!
 
mscard88 said:
I was nonreving home one day from ATL on Delta when the Capt came out of the cockpit and used the FA’s PA, facing the passengers. Said there were thunderstorms in the area and he was delaying the flight because he was a “devout coward”. The passengers loved it!
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I always said I was a card-carrying coward...only actually had to pull the card out once to show it to a passenger. Naturally the card had a wide yellow stripe down the back. ;)
 
orange said:
I was coming back to JFK on Jetblue yesterday (9/25) morning. One of the scariest landings in a commercial airliner for me.

I was litening to the tower on approach. Winds were 120 @ 17G27. Clouds down to 600. RVR5000-6000. We landed 4R, so a nasty direct crosswind. The wings were rocking back and forth like I've never experienced before. The landing was a good crosswind landing with right mains hitting first. At least that's what I felt. It was also very wet since it was raining pretty hard.

As I was deplaning, the captain walked out right in front of me. I called him and told him nice landing in that crosswind. We talked for a minute. He said that they were set up for autoland but had to go manual due to the conditions.

I can see why they are professional pilots.
Click to expand...

Pilot wasn't named Randy Bartels was it? He's a buddy of mine that flies the bus for Jet Blue.
 
mscard88 said:
I disagree, although I realize what you’re saying, may as well fly a CAT III if equipped and qualified for it p. I flew CRJs and we did Cat II and it got us in quite a few times. Of course we didn’t fly CATIIIs nor equipped for it.
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Yeah, I guess I could have phrased that better. I've done several CAT IIs to get in places that were below CAT I mins. They serve their purpose.

What I meant to convey was that if the plane and the runway is CAT III capable, then if I'm contemplating doing something other than a CAT I ILS, I'm going right for the CAT III. If I have to go through the whole setup and briefing for the CAT II, I might as well do it for the CAT III and not really worry about getting in. The DH of 100 RA becomes an AH of 50 RA and we're going to land unless something really goes sideways.

But, I agree if all you have is a CAT II, by all means. That's what it's there for.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Yeah, I guess I could have phrased that better. I've done several CAT IIs to get in places that were below CAT I mins. They serve their purpose.

What I meant to convey was that if the plane and the runway is CAT III capable, then if I'm contemplating doing something other than a CAT I ILS, I'm going right for the CAT III. If I have to go through the whole setup and briefing for the CAT II, I might as well do it for the CAT III and not really worry about getting in. The DH of 100 RA becomes an AH of 50 RA and we're going to land unless something really goes sideways.

But, I agree if all you have is a CAT II, by all means. That's what it's there for.
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Oh I understood your post. Just conveying not all of us have III capability. I agree that if you have III capability might as well go for that.
 
LoneAspen said:
...After the third attempt, he comes on the intercom and says something like the winds are too high, "the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up" (his own words), and that they're diverting to Palm Springs instead. I found out later that day was one of the windiest Las Vegas had seen in many years. Even driving to Las Vegas, my car was being swayed back and forth on the road.

I'll never forget that flight. Hope to never have another like it. When a commercial pilot admits the hairs on his neck are standing up, I guess the pucker factor is pretty high.
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The hairs-standing-up-on-the-back-of-his-neck thing sounds like a good argument for insisting on human pilots for airliners (and ones who are actually onboard the aircraft).
 
One was a long haul from CA to MD on United. The cap gets on the FA PA before they close the door; and announces the route home has enough turbulence, that the seat belt light will be on for almost the entire flight. Further, the FAs will not be offering any inflight service. If you cannot sit for four hours, the gate agent can rebook you. United needs the plane on the east coast in the morning.
That was the shortest east bound coast to cost I can recall. And yes, it was really bumpy pretty much the whole way.

Now this thread has me wondering, how often does this happen?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, I guess I can be that way sometimes. LOL
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We all can.

I just like to poke fun at airline pilots once in awhile after working with them for many years where we enjoyed a friendly back and forth banter. I have great respect for most I worked with. I know it's impossible for any of us to recall all of the posts that others have made on POA but there were a couple of times when discussing autonomous airliners that I came out in opposition to them and made the point that I doubted if an autopilot system could have reviewed all options and made the decision to land in the Hudson as that crew did. I simply doubt if the algorithms and the databases they use for reference can consider and calculate all possible off field landing scenarios and the execute accordingly. I do not have that level of faith in automation.

And by the way, contrary to the heroic stature that many thrust upon Sullenberger, I think many and possibly most airline pilots would have made that decision in that particular situation and could have pulled off that landing. That is how I truly feel about the folks in that occupation. But what do I know, I'm just an ignorant know-it-all passenger whose 35 years in aviation maintenance most of which has been working on Part 121 jet aircraft doesn't qualify me to have an opinion and my private pilot certificate does little to add any value I'm sure. So my actual faith in airline pilots might be just as misplaced as my failure at humor in regards to them.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I just like to poke fun at airline pilots once in awhile after working with them for many years where we enjoyed a friendly back and forth banter. I have great respect for most I worked with.
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The feeling is mutual. Now GFY, grease monkey!

:p
 
I spent most of 15 years flying DC8 and DC9 aircraft that could do CAT II but not CAT III so CAT II was pretty useful for us.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Auto land is typically used in low ceiling and/or visibility situations. Times when the weather is below 200 ceiling and viz less than half a mile. There are certain airplane and ILS requirements. Also wind restrictions. Our wind restrictions on the 737 are 15 kts headwind, 10 kts crosswind and 5 kts tailwind.
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That's surprisingly pretty conservative
 
MtnMarcus said:
That's surprisingly pretty conservative
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The 737 has a fail-passive autopilot system. It isn't as capable as the fail-active systems on the bigger Boeings. It'll do CAT III autolands down the RVRs of 600/600/300 but still requires a DH of 50' as the rollout must be "flown" manually. The fail-active systems don't have a DH, just an alert height (AH) where you verify that the autoland status is still "LAND 3". With the AH, there is no requirement to see anything prior to touchdown as the autoland system maintains runway centerline throughout the rollout.
 
Always wondered why we don’t autoland our 737s. I don’t think SWA does either. We’re probably too cheap to maintain the certification. :)

That said, the HUD gets us down to 300 RVR, so I guess we’re not missing out on any operational capability.
 
kayoh190 said:
Always wondered why we don’t autoland our 737s. I don’t think SWA does either. We’re probably too cheap to maintain the certification. :)

That said, the HUD gets us down to 300 RVR, so I guess we’re not missing out on any operational capability.
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You get lower minimums with the HUD on the 737. No need to maintain the autoland certification if you have the HUD.
 
FlySince9 said:
last time... and I mean, THE LAST TIME, I flew with Allegiant, I was kind of dosing when we "landed." I swear, we hit so hard, I was sure we crashed-landed... Banged my head on the window and scared the C.R.A.P. out of me!
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I'm sure you mean dozing. You were not giving yourself your due medication or drug of choice. :D
 
LoneAspen said:
Years ago, before I knew anything about aviation, I was on a commercial flight to Las Vegas. The winds were high that day, and the pilot made two attempts at landing, but aborted both. The third attempt was even worse. I remember the plane really swaying back and forth.

After the third attempt, he comes on the intercom and says something like the winds are too high, "the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up" (his own words), and that they're diverting to Palm Springs instead. I found out later that day was one of the windiest Las Vegas had seen in many years. Even driving to Las Vegas, my car was being swayed back and forth on the road.

I'll never forget that flight. Hope to never have another like it. When a commercial pilot admits the hairs on his neck are standing up, I guess the pucker factor is pretty high.
Click to expand...

My flight like that was back in the 80s coming into RDU in the middle of a cell. I don't know why we did that instead of holding til it passed but we did. All us pax were silent, wide eyed and white knuckling. Unforgettable not in a good way.
 
Larry in TN said:
You get lower minimums with the HUD on the 737. No need to maintain the autoland certification if you have the HUD.
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Yeah, I didn’t realize your autoland mins were higher than our HUD mins until you posted earlier. Do you not have the HUD at all on yours, or do you just not use it for for CAT II and III approaches?
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, I didn’t realize your autoland mins were higher than our HUD mins until you posted earlier. Do you not have the HUD at all on yours, or do you just not use it for for CAT II and III approaches?
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We don't have HUDs. No reason for a HUD other than lower than standard takeoff and landing minimums. If you have them, that's what you'd use for those operations.

The bigger Boeings all have the fail-active autolands which do the full AH, no visual required, autoland and rollout.
 
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