Saying hi, and asking educational advice

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Bravo89

Filing Flight Plan
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Bravo89
Hey all! I stumbled across this forum while searching for flight school information, so I thought I would take a second to introduce myself...and ask a question or two.

Long story short, I was interested in flying as a kid (messed with simulators, read about mostly military planes, etc), but was discouraged from pursuing it at the time (my dad was very keen on "getting that paycheck"). I ended up graduating college in 2015 with a Bachelor's in Physics and a minor in Mathematics, and I received an Associates in Computer Science. During the summer after college, I was itching for something difficult to learn again (turns out I actually did miss those physics classes :p ), so I dove back into flight sims. About a month in, I was hooked, and started thinking about careers now that I was old enough to realize that "getting that paycheck" wasn't everything. About a year later (middle of 2016), a mutual friend (a USAF pilot in Vietnam) connected me with a retired Navy pilot who's been flying professionally since and is very passionate about all things flying. About a month later, he took me up in his Grumman Tiger and that was it. Almost immediately it felt as natural to me as riding a motorcycle (which, incidentally, feels very natural). Since then, we've been discussing schools and opportunities and such, and he's been an unbelievable source of both info and encouragement. Side note (because I couldn't find a place to fit this in naturally), I'm currently 26 years old.

But as I hunt for schools, I'm becoming a bit lost. This is where I need your advice. I know that the two main routes are 4 year college degree programs focused on flight careers (flying, admin, ATC, etc), and dedicated flight schools focused on teaching you to be a pilot. I also know that I want to fly professionally, but that my ultimate goal isn't the airlines. Since I already have a four year degree, would I be well off heading to a dedicated flight school? Or is there still great opportunity for me at a university? What would be the reason for choosing one over the other? I'm still doing research when I can, but hopefully you guys won't begrudge me for asking directly while I continue researching.

At any rate, I would certainly appreciate any words of wisdom you guys may have! I may be able to take off and (decently...) land a plane in simulators, but I'm very new to the education and career world.
 
Sounds like you have the degree piece knocked out. Get your PPL with your CFI buddy in his Tiger. Then look at next steps.

Keep your day job to pay to train, you'll come out ahead in the long run.

And don't forget to have fun.
 
Are you interested in the military? All the branches operate planes. Also Guard units and reserve units of all the services too.
 
The two main options I would consider would be military reserve unit, or just pay for instruction on you own at a local flight school. If you are interested in the military, it is hard to beat the Air National Guard route. They'll pay for most if not all of your ratings and you'll be back as a civilian in less than two years potentially. You can also choose a local flight school and work your way through at your own pace. If you are wanting to stay local and fly local, this might give you more opportunities to meet contacts for future employment.
 
There is no reason for you to go to a university program since you already have a degree in my opinion. (Especially given it isn't a degree in Bolivian Whittling.) With a science and math background you would probably be a strong candidate for the military route. If that isn't your cup of tea, I would keep my job and fly as much as financially possible until you got your private pilots license (flying weekends and afternoons if possible). At that point you may decide a pilot career isn't for you, or you become deadset on it at which point you can look at options for your IFR and commercial.
 
You already have your degree. Get started on your ratings. You don't have to get another degree in flying. Make sure you cal pass a first class medical exam.
 
To become a pilot you do not need a University program or formal full time "Flight School" zero to hero program. You can certainly go that route if you have money to burn and wanna knock it out quick...but most find a local FBO and CFI and just knock out their ratings one at a time through CPL if that is where you wanna go.

As with most things in life...better, faster, cheaper...pick two.
 
Your choice of university studies is impressive. It shows you have ambition and talent.

If your financial situation permits, concentrated flight instruction over the shortest period possible will give you the basic single engine pilot certification, place you in a position to pursue advanced ratings (instrument, commercial, multi engine, instructor), and sharpen your focus on career choices.

Looking at other posts, I see this is pretty much the advice given by Seanaldinho. Another poster mentioned the medical exam. There are three different levels, and the highest, first class, has very demanding specifics. Some aspiring pilots have been tripped up by previous issues such as ADHD diagnosis as a youth or a lapse in judgement that resulted in a DUI. Study this issue now and familiarize yourself with the requirements. The medical forum on POA is a good place to start.

Oh, and please excuse my fellow forum members' exuberant use of acronyms. They can be a bit confusing to a newcomer. It is a habit learned early on. :D
 
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Wow, I didn't expect so many replies that quickly. Thanks for chiming in, guys!

The military has been suggested a few times. Growing up, military was the only thing I dreamed about. But, long story short, I ended up with a couple of injuries that will keep me out. Nothing that keeps me out of anything in normal life, granted, and internally I’m in good form (no medications, no surgeries apart from a couple for broken bones, no diseases or disorders). I’ve worked construction, taken long and rough hikes, put many hours into riding motorcycles, crawled around under cars, a lot of things. But they wouldn’t hold up to the intensity and frequency with which the military trains for very long without more permanent damage. As much as I crave the level of training the military would provide and expect, I may need to steer clear in the name of longevity. If I can, I'd like to eventually fly (volunteer or otherwise) with relief groups and such, flying in and out of dangerous or hard to reach places. Military training would be the way to go for that, but it wouldn't do much good if I walked with a cane at the age of 35!

On the civilian side of things, you guys have a great point. I already have a degree, so a university program would probably just be redundant. Now, a couple of you mentioned just getting a CFI to train with. Do you only do that to get a PPL, and then go to a dedicated school for commercial level certifications? And when it comes to landing pilot jobs, how important is the reputation of the school? Of course, going to a school that’s known to be bad isn’t going to help in any case. But what about schools that may just not have that national exposure? If you have a physics degree from Podunk U, it may not get you that job with NASA like a diploma on MIT stationary. Does it work that way in the pilot world? I actually live about 10 minutes from the local airport and there is a school there that, apparently, has a good reputation in the area (the friend I flew with stores his plane at the same airport, and he's liked his interactions with them).
 
The degree is just to check the box. You'll seen on every airline website requirement it just says Bachelor's degree. I've flown with captains who have degrees in history, computer science, finance, etc. I have a bachelors in Economics.
 
Bravo89 said:
. Now, a couple of you mentioned just getting a CFI to train with. Do you only do that to get a PPL, and then go to a dedicated school for commercial level certifications? And when it comes to landing pilot jobs, how important is the reputation of the school?
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You can get your PPC, Commercial, Instrument, and whatever else with an independent CFI, a flight school, or a formal program at a university. Potential employers don't really care how you got your certificates/ratings as long as you have the certificates. Learning locally gives you more options, keep your job, go part time, live at home etc.
 
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Even at NASA, getting a job is more about networking and previous work history (including student work) than where you got your degree. Now, the student work might be more interesting at MIT, but not in my field.
 
One thing the FAA requires for a pilot is time. You need x hours for a private and y hours for instrument.....the other thing that I'm sure you know is knowledge and hand-eye coordination are lost with time so you have two variables to work with. If you can afford to dedicate multiple hours on multiple days a week then you will not suffer the loss in knowledge and coordination and you can get through in minimal time (and cost). Also, a pilot that learns in a cheap Cessna 150 gets the same license as a pilot that learns in an expensive glass panel 182. You can always step up later for minimal cost.
 
Before you go down any paths for aviation, get your medical done. Once you have that, one major hurdle is out of your way. You said you have some injuries that kept you out of the military, make sure they don't keep you out of flying too.

Even if you don't end up flying, ATC is a good career to get into and a lot of controllers are pilots too, so you could theoretically do both.

What part of the country do you live in? You may want to consider your instrument rating at some point if you are in an area that gets a lot of overcast weather. Nothing more frustrating then being a VFR only pilot in an area where you constantly have weather.
 
I'm surprised no one mentioned buying a plane to save money for PPL, IA & Commercial as being cheaper than dumping a ton into renting. Or at least looking at a partnership or flying club.

good luck.
 
ChemGuy said:
I'm surprised no one mentioned buying a plane to save money for PPL, IA & Commercial as being cheaper than dumping a ton into renting. Or at least looking at a partnership or flying club.

good luck.
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The right plane can take you through all 3, but its hard to find a cheap plane that's equipped well enough to get through your Instrument. Now, if money is no object then..awesome.

I had to make some serious mods to my plane to get it equipped well enough for my instrument. And..since it wasn't complex, its usefulness to me as a training tool ran out right after I got my rating.
 
Caramon13 said:
The right plane can take you through all 3, but its hard to find a cheap plane that's equipped well enough to get through your Instrument. Now, if money is no object then..awesome.

I had to make some serious mods to my plane to get it equipped well enough for my instrument. And..since it wasn't complex, its usefulness to me as a training tool ran out right after I got my rating.
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Agree to disagree.
You need 250hr totals for commercial. Only 10 of that needs to be complex (blue know, flaps and gear) for CSEL. Its cheaper in the long run to buy a 150/172/cherokee/tiger/etc than rent each of those at retail rates. Unless you have a major engine/airframe issue, so that is a tad of a gamble.
You can do PPL, IA and build time for Commercial in your plane and then rent an arrow or twin for the commercial test. Assume a 172/Cherokee at 50-70/hr wet to own (100hr/yr) vs renting for 100-140+/hr for 250 hrs, that's $4,000-7,000 less.
 
mscard88 said:
You can get your PPC, Commercial, Instrument, and whatever else with an independent CFI, a flight school, or a formal program at a university. Potential employers don't really care how you got your certificates/ratings as long as you have the certificates.
Click to expand...

cgrab said:
Also, a pilot that learns in a cheap Cessna 150 gets the same license as a pilot that learns in an expensive glass panel 182. You can always step up later for minimal cost.
Click to expand...

Ah, that makes things less concerning. I know I'm still running on old college-search knowledge, where the name of the program meant quite a lot. You aren't licensed to have a physics degree, so there's no "standard" for education, I suppose you could say. But what cgrab said makes a lot of sense. Everyone still has to pass the same tests and get the same license.


Caramon13 said:
Before you go down any paths for aviation, get your medical done. Once you have that, one major hurdle is out of your way. You said you have some injuries that kept you out of the military, make sure they don't keep you out of flying too.

What part of the country do you live in? You may want to consider your instrument rating at some point if you are in an area that gets a lot of overcast weather. Nothing more frustrating then being a VFR only pilot in an area where you constantly have weather.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. Medical will definitely come before I put any money into this venture. No point in investing in flight lessons just to find out I have some issue I didn't know about that keeps me out of the seat. The injuries are joint related and all still function well, but it just happens they mostly deal with my feet, ankles, and knees. All things you can't really compensate for when running every day. If you have an arm injury, you just use your other arm more, right? Hard to do that with feet :p But all that said, I doubt it's anything that will keep me out of flying, but it's absolutely worth knowing well ahead of time. I may make it my next step to get medical out of the way. Rather know sooner than late.

I'm in the south east - Tennessee, to be specific. I do want to get my instrument ratings either way, as I want to be able to fly whatever the conditions, if I can.


I should probably take a second to talk about money... I am currently working, but I am far from making a typical physicist's salary. I searched for jobs elsewhere after graduating, but didn't have much luck. In my area, there are no science or engineering jobs, but I was lucky enough to find a basic IT job just to pay bills. But I gross a little under $30k a year doing that. Most of the people I know are still living with parents and don't want to pay for apartments, so I'm renting a place on my own. And in this area, if you want to stay out of a rough trailer park or bad apartment complex (by bad I mean drugs, domestic issues, etc), you're looking at $650-$700 a month minimum. All that said, money is definitely an object here. I'm looking for ways to cut back, but since I don't have car payments or large insurance policies or anything, I'm sort of at bare minimum already. Still figuring that out though. So if you guys have tips on how to be cost effective, I'm all ears :p
 
Bravo89 said:
I should probably take a second to talk about money... I am currently working, but I am far from making a typical physicist's salary. I searched for jobs elsewhere after graduating, but didn't have much luck. In my area, there are no science or engineering jobs, but I was lucky enough to find a basic IT job just to pay bills. But I gross a little under $30k a year doing that. Most of the people I know are still living with parents and don't want to pay for apartments, so I'm renting a place on my own. And in this area, if you want to stay out of a rough trailer park or bad apartment complex (by bad I mean drugs, domestic issues, etc), you're looking at $650-$700 a month minimum. All that said, money is definitely an object here. I'm looking for ways to cut back, but since I don't have car payments or large insurance policies or anything, I'm sort of at bare minimum already. Still figuring that out though. So if you guys have tips on how to be cost effective, I'm all ears :p
Click to expand...
Do you have a smart phone? Get rid of it. Get rid of cable and internet.
 
Bravo89 said:
Ah, that makes things less concerning. I know I'm still running on old college-search knowledge, where the name of the program meant quite a lot. You aren't licensed to have a physics degree, so there's no "standard" for education, I suppose you could say. But what cgrab said makes a lot of sense. Everyone still has to pass the same tests and get the same license.




You're absolutely right. Medical will definitely come before I put any money into this venture. No point in investing in flight lessons just to find out I have some issue I didn't know about that keeps me out of the seat. The injuries are joint related and all still function well, but it just happens they mostly deal with my feet, ankles, and knees. All things you can't really compensate for when running every day. If you have an arm injury, you just use your other arm more, right? Hard to do that with feet :p But all that said, I doubt it's anything that will keep me out of flying, but it's absolutely worth knowing well ahead of time. I may make it my next step to get medical out of the way. Rather know sooner than late.

I'm in the south east - Tennessee, to be specific. I do want to get my instrument ratings either way, as I want to be able to fly whatever the conditions, if I can.


I should probably take a second to talk about money... I am currently working, but I am far from making a typical physicist's salary. I searched for jobs elsewhere after graduating, but didn't have much luck. In my area, there are no science or engineering jobs, but I was lucky enough to find a basic IT job just to pay bills. But I gross a little under $30k a year doing that. Most of the people I know are still living with parents and don't want to pay for apartments, so I'm renting a place on my own. And in this area, if you want to stay out of a rough trailer park or bad apartment complex (by bad I mean drugs, domestic issues, etc), you're looking at $650-$700 a month minimum. All that said, money is definitely an object here. I'm looking for ways to cut back, but since I don't have car payments or large insurance policies or anything, I'm sort of at bare minimum already. Still figuring that out though. So if you guys have tips on how to be cost effective, I'm all ears :p
Click to expand...

Even at Oak Ridge you can't find a science or engineering job?
 
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ChemGuy said:
Agree to disagree.
You need 250hr totals for commercial. Only 10 of that needs to be complex (blue know, flaps and gear) for CSEL. Its cheaper in the long run to buy a 150/172/cherokee/tiger/etc than rent each of those at retail rates. Unless you have a major engine/airframe issue, so that is a tad of a gamble.
You can do PPL, IA and build time for Commercial in your plane and then rent an arrow or twin for the commercial test. Assume a 172/Cherokee at 50-70/hr wet to own (100hr/yr) vs renting for 100-140+/hr for 250 hrs, that's $4,000-7,000 less.
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Yeah you are correct, you also need a complex for the checkride as you pointed out. You CAN do it in two planes, but that means you have to be comfortable with your plane and a rental. For me it was a matter of principle, I didn't buy a plane to go out and fly something else. If I flew, I flew in my plane. But I get it.
 
Bravo89 said:
I should probably take a second to talk about money... I am currently working, but I am far from making a typical physicist's salary. I searched for jobs elsewhere after graduating, but didn't have much luck. In my area, there are no science or engineering jobs, but I was lucky enough to find a basic IT job just to pay bills. But I gross a little under $30k a year doing that. Most of the people I know are still living with parents and don't want to pay for apartments, so I'm renting a place on my own. And in this area, if you want to stay out of a rough trailer park or bad apartment complex (by bad I mean drugs, domestic issues, etc), you're looking at $650-$700 a month minimum. All that said, money is definitely an object here. I'm looking for ways to cut back, but since I don't have car payments or large insurance policies or anything, I'm sort of at bare minimum already. Still figuring that out though. So if you guys have tips on how to be cost effective, I'm all ears :p
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Making that kind of money I would question getting into it at all. Your PPL could cost as much as half of your annual salary (15K) once all is said and done. Could be cheaper, but depends largely on rentals and instructor rates in your area. Instrument will cost the same, probably more and commercial is not too bad as it just involves grinding out a few extra hours and some new maneuvers.

Flying regularly is important. I flew 3-4 times a week when I was going after my licenses/ratings. One time a week ain't gonna cut it. By the time you fly again the next week you may have to spend time relearning what you did the week before, which eats into learning anything new. Flying 3-4 times a week at lets say $150 an hour for 2 hours each time you could spend 1.2K a week just in flying costs. That can vary a lot but based on your salary 1.2K a week is almost 3 times what you earn in that week, so you might need to save a bunch of money up front or look into financing.

Also don't forget you'll spend probably $100 on renter's insurance, maybe $100 on the medical and then there's the fees for the tests, $150 a pop and the checkride can be as much as $600 depending on your DPE, which if you fail you get to pay again :).

It ain't cheap to fly. You've probably heard that planes don't run on gas, they run on $100 bills.. :)
 
Depends on where you live but 15K is probably on the high side of what a PPL cost is most areas. Around here I tell most people they can get it for about 9K if they are careful, that is 60hrs of fly at $150/hr.(PPL = Priviate Pilot License, it is actually PPC Private Pilot Certificate to be correct)
The national average for a PPC is about 60 hours, but some of that is solo so will be less.

flying locally you will generally rent an airplane and pay a CFI to teach you.
Most lessons will be under 2 hours total and about 1 hour of flight time, so you can estimate the cost of a lesson based on the rates you are given.
It can be done flying as little as once per week, but twice is better and I wouldn't recommend less than once per week.

Look around for flying clubs.
check out local airports and talk to as many local pilots as you can for recommendations.

Many people find that a PPC satisfies their flying habit adequately. Currently this only requires a 3rd class medical, and new rules are going into effect this spring that can replace the requirement for a 3rd class medical. One concern is if there is any doubt about you passing a 3rd class medical, Don't do it with out consulting a CFI (Certified Flight Instructor) or Medical Examiner so you fully understand the consequences of being denied a medical.

Once you complete your PPC, you may decide to add instrument privileges, which is typically the next rating, and requires about the same time and cost as a the PPC.

Next is usually the Commercial rating which requires you to have a total of 250 hours (in most cases) of flying.

What you will find is that flying is a lot like the physics classes you are missing, many people find they really like the learning part of it. So If you can afford to move along at a once a week or better pace, go for it and have fun doing it.

Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Think about moving to rocket city-Huntsville AL. It's not that far and we are a tech center. I'll be retiring in July so if you have multiple engineering degrees, 20 years experience in ballistic missile development and a top secret clearance, you may be able to take my job. Or you could just get lucky like I did.
 
I just met a guy the other day, two years ago he was teaching in high school. He was younger(mid 20's) and wanted a change. He went to one of those 'fast track' flight schools, in FL.

Now two years later he has been an FO at a regional carrier for 6 months. Different ways to go about it. Two helpful attributes are motivation and some $$$.
 
Sorry for not having responded for a bit. Work became a bit hectic and time got away from me! Hopefully this thread isn't too dead to revive. You guys have certainly helped me out a lot!

Based on what you guys are saying and on what I've read, I'm thinking I may need to do this the college way: Go full bore until it's done, and then get into the job market. Unless I can find maybe a scholarship of some kind (I've read they exist, anyway, so I'm checking around), I'm pretty convinced I'll need to finance this venture. My thought is to find a school where I can dive in, take multiple lessons a week, and bust things out in a timely manner. I learn very quickly, especially when it comes to "doing" things I'm truly interested in. This puts me into the job market more quickly and thus on to paying back loans. Not sure if this is a good idea, still tossing it around. Once I'm out and ready to fly, I honestly am far from picky about what job I work. I'm not really concerned with working a clean 8-5 style flight job here in the states. I'm not married, no kids, not concerned with staying near family -- I can pretty much go anywhere if it means flying (and by all means, send me to the craziest places!). Put me in an airplane and throw a little money my way and I'll do it (well, you know, legal things...). I'll admit, the money situation is looking a bit grim... But 45 minutes in a small airplane caused more excitement for flying than all of my college years combined could for physics. So if there's a way to do it that won't put me in debtors prison, I'm hoping to find it!

Anyway, all of this leads me to another question. When I originally started to think through costs in my head, I was adding up all of the certifications I would want. PPC, CFI, instrument, commercial, multi-engine, tail wheel (listen, one day someone is going to say "Bravo89, you're in the BF109 today" and I'll be ready :p ), etc. But just to get my foot in the door and start flying professionally (knowing that being a bush pilot is what I'd really like to do anyway), do I really need to get all of those ratings to start with? I'd imagine, for instance, CFI and multi-engine could be obtained later on. Maybe tail wheel and even instrument. I want all of those ratings in the end (and any others I find, frankly. I want to fly helicopters too, if I'm honest... Maybe later :p ), but do I really need them to start with? Cutting out a few certifications at first may allow me to get in, get out, and get started without racking up unnecessary debt. Once I get in, pay back some loans, get some experience... I can start adding on those certifications as opportunities arise.
 
Welcome to the club.

Medical. You want to be sure that you are NEVER denied a medical. You do that by talking with your medical examiner before you take the medical exam. Fill out the online form ahead of your appointment, but don't have the examiner open the form until after you have had the exam. That way, if there is some reason to be concerned, he doesn't open the form until he is absolutely certain you will pass. If there is any question, address the question before you can get a denial. Make sure that as you read the questions on the medical questionnaire, you notice that every question is "Have you EVER..." If you have had DUIs, ADHD, anxiety, sleep issues, talk to the doctor.

College. You don't need to go to a university for your flight training. Find a local CFI (Certified Flight Instructor) or a flight school. I suggest moving to Arizona to get your training. They have the greatest number of weather-free flying days. But, you should also get some instrument time in real weather once you know what you are doing -- like in the northeast or something.

Flight simulator. You have learned a lot of things that will be handy, but you have learned a lot of others that you will need to overcome. Mixed bag there. Some of the things that simulators teach can get you killed. You can't just 'restart'.

Loans, Grants and Scholarships. https://www.faa.gov/education/grants_and_scholarships/ Don't ask on POA (Pilots of America forums) for a Go Fund Me. It doesn't work and alienates the residents. I suggest not taking out a loan for flight training. Bad idea. Flying doesn't pay well enough to pay back the loans. You'll be saddled with debt for years if you start loans now. Use those degrees you have to amass the funds ahead of time. BTW, that no wife, no kids thing changes.

Why go for CFI rating? a) You learn so much more by teaching that the experience is worthwhile. b) You get paid, minimally, by students to build the required hours for a real job. c) If you go to a larger school, they will hire you once you "graduate." d) it is a normal stepping stone.

Seaplane. Go for it. In fact, if you want to be a bush pilot, make sure to finish up with a school that specializes in that type of training.
Multi-engine. You can skip that for awhile.
Tail-wheel. If you want to be a bush pilot, then go for tail wheel. Where, what kind of bush pilot?
Helicopter. Costs double.

Building time. Actually, you need to have lots of hours before you can be paid to fly. Someone on this forum will tell you how many. Even after you get that commercial rating, there are almost no paying jobs. Someone on this forum will tell you what you can do, such as fly a jump plane, or tow plane, but very little else. You cannot "hold out" flying service (like taxi work).

Buying vs renting. Buying worked for me, but I had enough money to pay for a $20K engine overhaul shortly after buying my plane. Consider that you will have an annual every year. For me, the first one cost about 5K, including the required repairs. After that, they averaged about 1K per year. Upgrades tend to push maintenance costs to another 1-2K.

Stay with it. Congratulations on catching the bug. Don't let anything I've said stop you from fulfilling your dream.
 
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