Say Intentions?

GMascelli

GMascelli

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GaryM
I decided to make a short hop to check on my projects at KMIV and KWWD. Wx started to really clear up and it turned out to be a nice afternoon in the air. I am based at KILG and have been there for all six years of my flying. Today I make my call to the tower at around ten miles out as i always do.

ME: Wilmington Tower, Sundowner 6708Romeo
ILG: Sundowner say intentions (in a slightly miffed tone)
ME: 6708Romeo 10 SE, inbound full stop, whiskey, 2000 level (my typical second call)
ILG: Make straight in rwy three two
ME: straight in three two, 08Romeo

I made sure the frequency was clear then asked if I had missed something with the say intentions request, not used to hearing that upon check in. I was told they want all the information at one time, it's a time saver, it's what they like. Hmmmm....oooook. I said not the normal procedure anywhere else i fly but just wanted clarification and thanked him.

What gives.....are we not required to "establish" communications prior to entering class delta? "Establish" to me does not mean give them the who what when where on the initial contact.

Just wondering if I missed some change or have been wrong all this time.....what do you CFI's teach out there? I know what I was instructed to do.
 
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GMascelli said:
I decided to make a short hop to check on my projects at KMIV and KWWD. Wx started to really clear up and it turned out to be a nice afternoon in the air. I am based at KILG and have been there for all six years of my flying. Today I make my call to the tower at around ten miles out as i always do.

ME: Wilmington Tower, Sundowner 6708Romeo
ILG: Sundowner say intentions (in a slightly miffed tone)
ME: 6708Romeo 10 SE, inbound full stop, whiskey, 2000 level (my typical second call)
ILG: Make straight in rwy three two
ME: straight in three two, 08Romeo

I made sure the frequency was clear then asked if I had missed something with the say intentions request, not used to hearing that upon check in. I was told they want all the information at one time, it's a time saver, it's what they like. Hmmmm....oooook. I said not the normal procedure anywhere else i fly but just wanted clarification and thanked him.

What gives.....are we not required to "establish" communications prior to entering class delta? "Establish" to me does not mean give them the who what when where on the initial contact.

Just wondering if I missed some change or have been wrong all this time.....what do you CFI's teach out there? I know what I was instructed to do.
Click to expand...

If it's busy... Then I just say "Whoever ATC, Cessna 32B, request".

If it's not busy, then it's "Whoever ATC, Cessna 32B, a 172, 6 miles south, landing wherever, with the weather".
 
I talk to ILG tower a lot doing traffic watch and make "initial" calls to them 3 -4 times during a typical flight. I always call with just the aircraft ID and then tell them my intentions after they respond to the initial call. Some of the guys I fly with give all the information on the initial call and very often the tower will have them repeat the information because the missed it the first time.

Last fall I was in the tower for a tour and I asked the controllers on duty about how much information they want in the initial call, and they both agreed that it's best to just give the aircraft ID because very often they'll be busy with some other task when you first call.

I think it can be done either way and each controller has their personal preference.
 
Nav8tor said:
I think it can be done either way and each controller has their personal preference.
Click to expand...

That being the case the controller should not be "miffed" when someone checks in the way they don't like.
 
Nav8tor said:
I talk to ILG tower a lot doing traffic watch and make "initial" calls to them 3 -4 times during a typical flight. I always call with just the aircraft ID and then tell them my intentions after they respond to the initial call. Some of the guys I fly with give all the information on the initial call and very often the tower will have them repeat the information because the missed it the first time.

Last fall I was in the tower for a tour and I asked the controllers on duty about how much information they want in the initial call, and they both agreed that it's best to just give the aircraft ID because very often they'll be busy with some other task when you first call.

I think it can be done either way and each controller has their personal preference.
Click to expand...

typically yes...we have to repeat...I've come to find that the norm at ILG. They go through controllers and managers so fast.... how can we keep up.
:dunno:

Greg Bockelman said:
That being the case the controller should not be "miffed" when someone checks in the way they don't like.
Click to expand...

Yeah he was short but I guess he could have been worse. I honestly think ILG gets all the folks that wash out from Philly or Atlantic City....heck we have one guy that calls himself center at times.....one can't help but raise the eyebrow :sosp:and wonder whats on the other side of the radio. Maybe ILG can get the guy who naps on duty.....:crazy:
 
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I am used to giving the whole story at first callup.
 
Depends on the tower. I usually give tail number and distance, and ATIS info if appropriate. If they want more, they can ask. If they want to be snide, they can standby. After all, I can enter their airspace once I've established two-way communication...:ihih:
 
I've done it both ways...just my tail number or something like "XYZ tower Skylane 182V five east with XRAY, landing". I don't say "Skylane 182V, request" unless it's something unusual or a favor from ATC..neither of which I consider a landing to be.
 
GMascelli said:
I decided to make a short hop to check on my projects at KMIV and KWWD. Wx started to really clear up and it turned out to be a nice afternoon in the air. I am based at KILG and have been there for all six years of my flying. Today I make my call to the tower at around ten miles out as i always do.

ME: Wilmington Tower, Sundowner 6708Romeo
ILG: Sundowner say intentions (in a slightly miffed tone)
ME: 6708Romeo 10 SE, inbound full stop, whiskey, 2000 level (my typical second call)
ILG: Make straight in rwy three two
ME: straight in three two, 08Romeo

I made sure the frequency was clear then asked if I had missed something with the say intentions request, not used to hearing that upon check in. I was told they want all the information at one time, it's a time saver, it's what they like. Hmmmm....oooook. I said not the normal procedure anywhere else i fly but just wanted clarification and thanked him.

What gives.....are we not required to "establish" communications prior to entering class delta? "Establish" to me does not mean give them the who what when where on the initial contact.

Just wondering if I missed some change or have been wrong all this time.....what do you CFI's teach out there? I know what I was instructed to do.
Click to expand...


I was taught (and will most always trot out the entire story at the first call-up to this day) but have heard others do it the way you do without attitude or editorials from ATC either way. I have always thought that either way was OK, it's personal pilot preference. I think you got a crabby controller who didn't get any last night, was grumpy about it, and decided to impose his own personal preference on you. :rolleyes2: Think of this... you got to go fly... and he was working! :cornut:
 
GMascelli said:
What gives.....are we not required to "establish" communications prior to entering class delta? "Establish" to me does not mean give them the who what when where on the initial contact.
Click to expand...

You should at least give your position and altitude on the initial callup. An initial callup with only your callsign really doesn't help anybody.
 
It depends really, if it's an airport Tower & Ground I usually go like this:

"Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles out to the South, inbound to land on Runway 20, with information Charlie."

If it's Approach/Depature, then I do this

"Charlotte Depature, Cherokee 3663Romeo"

and go from there.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You should at least give your position and altitude on the initial callup. An initial callup with only your callsign really doesn't help anybody.
Click to expand...
Depends.... If the guy's going a mile a minute (like NY approach always seems to be), all you want to do is get his attention.

With a tower, it's far more likely that I'll give the who (I am), where (I am), what (I want) call up. But at some airports (Farmingdale on a busy day comes to mind), I'll be lucky to just get my call sign in before I'm stepped on.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You should at least give your position and altitude on the initial callup. An initial callup with only your callsign really doesn't help anybody.
Click to expand...

I should mention that the (2) calls I make have been the accepted practice since I started flying there.......

The times they are a changin'.....I can adapt to whatever they want, just posting for some feedback and what others do.:D
 
Local tower here in Jackson Hole wants an initial call of just the N number,, When they answer I give the " experimental 801BH, five miles east, inbound, full stop with kilo" Etc..... For some reason they do not want all the info on my first call. All the guys/ gals in the tower are ex- military so maybe that might explain it.. Great tower operators though... I love um.

Ben ' telling them what they want to hear' Haas.
 
I teach saying everything most of the time. The only real exception is if it's a really odd request.

Even if it's real busy and you make it into multiple requests you just end up eating up more air time.
 
TMetzinger said:
If it's busy... Then I just say "Whoever ATC, Cessna 32B, request".

If it's not busy, then it's "Whoever ATC, Cessna 32B, a 172, 6 miles south, landing wherever, with the weather".
Click to expand...

+1. I think the key word is "request" upon initial contact. That tells the controller you want something, and gives them the ability to respond based on his/her workload. Depending on the location, the controller could be working the tower and ground at the same time. If the twr and gnd fqs are diiferent, we wouldn't necessarily know that by just monitoring tower fq when we call them up.

We all have our good and bad days.
 
Didn't we just have a lengthy debate on this within the last few weeks?
 
Here in Buffalo I have heard it both ways, but my instructor does it like you do "good morning Buffalo approach, Cherokee 15310......" Then wait for a response, Buffalo has 2 frequencies (east and west sides) but it seems only one person is on each one, they can get really busy especially on a nice clear day with all the airliners to Buffalo, and all the GA traffic going to and from Niagara Falls. I have never heard a controller around here give an attitude though.
 
eMKay said:
I have never heard a controller around here give an attitude though.
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That is because Buffalo is basically in the midwest and folks are not as tightly wound as they are along the coast :) .
 
As with most things aviation related, there is a reference for the question - 4-2-3 'Contact Procedures' in the AIM.
4-2-3. Contact Procedures ​
a. Initial Contact.
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
(a) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;
(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short; and
(e) The word "Over" if required.
EXAMPLE-
1. "New York Radio, Mooney Three One One Echo."
2. "Columbia Ground, Cessna Three One Six Zero Foxtrot, south ramp, I-F-R Memphis."
3. "Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V-F-R traffic advisories."
2. Many FSSs are equipped with Remote Communications Outlets (RCOs) and can transmit on the same frequency at more than one location. The frequencies available at specific locations are indicated on charts above FSS communications boxes. To enable the specialist to utilize the correct transmitter, advise the location and the frequency on which you expect a reply.
EXAMPLE-
St. Louis FSS can transmit on frequency 122.3 at either Farmington, Missouri, or Decatur, Illinois, if you are in the vicinity of Decatur, your callup should be "Saint Louis radio, Piper Six Niner Six Yankee, receiving Decatur One Two Two Point Three."
3. If radio reception is reasonably assured, inclusion of your request, your position or altitude, and the phrase "(ATIS) Information Charlie received" in the initial contact helps decrease radio frequency congestion. Use discretion; do not overload the controller with information unneeded or superfluous. If you do not get a response from the ground station, recheck your radios or use another transmitter, but keep the next contact short.
EXAMPLE-
"Atlanta Center, Duke Four One Romeo, request V-F-R traffic advisories, Twenty Northwest Rome, seven thousand five hundred, over."
Click to expand...

The initial callup that you described is considered acceptable, however, depending on the state of the frequency at the time, it is recommended to include your position, altitude and request along with the ATIS.

Use your judgement.
 
To the tower I have always given all the information at once unless it's an unusual request. To approach or center I would give the N-number only at first unless it was a handoff. However as others have stated, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. You just don't want to end up giving some long initial callup on a busy frequency which the controller may not be able to comprehend all at once.
 
Right now I'm listening to Buffalo control 2 students doing touch and go's and a scattering of airliners all without impatience.
 
N801BH said:
Local tower here in Jackson Hole wants an initial call of just the N number,, When they answer I give the " experimental 801BH, five miles east, inbound, full stop with kilo" Etc..... For some reason they do not want all the info on my first call. All the guys/ gals in the tower are ex- military so maybe that might explain it.. Great tower operators though... I love um.

Ben ' telling them what they want to hear' Haas.
Click to expand...

I have to agree that the military prefers establishing contact first (I believe it is a carry over from ground ops). I OTOH do not.....and give it to them all at once if appropriate. I do not shoot machine gun style like I hear others....and then listen to them repeat everything over.
 
I love listening to liveATC, it's good learning for me, and there is always that one guy, deeply saying "buffalo approach cactus ahhhhhhh eightfivesevevoctorahhhhhhhhh, i'm an airline pilot and ahhhhhhhhhh, you're not. I'm ahhhhhhhh landing."
 
Brad Z said:
I've done it both ways...just my tail number or something like "XYZ tower Skylane 182V five east with XRAY, landing". I don't say "Skylane 182V, request" unless it's something unusual or a favor from ATC..neither of which I consider a landing to be.
Click to expand...

What if you're calling Approach for VFR Flight following through Bravo airspace?
 
Every time I call up with the full blown "(Facility), Comanche 727DS, (location), (direction), (altitude), request flight following to (destination)"

I always get "Aircraft calling (facility) can you say that again" or "7DS I didn't get all that, say again."

When I've been on a facility tours, they have repeatedly said they only want the tail number to start, because a lot of the time they aren't ready to copy everything down, and you're just going to have to tell them again anyway.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
It depends really, if it's an airport Tower & Ground I usually go like this:

"Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles out to the South, inbound to land on Runway 20, with information Charlie."

If it's Approach/Depature, then I do this

"Charlotte Depature, Cherokee 3663Romeo"

and go from there.
Click to expand...

You should add your altitude and descending, level, or climbing to the abbreviated call-up for departures for sure. They don't have to play 20-questions for the altitude verification to give you "Radar Contact" that way. Especially if you're IFR or already on a discreet transponder code.

Makes their lives a little easier, if they're already expecting you. Confirm your altitude in the data block on the screen as you're saying it, instant "Radar Contact".
 
ejensen said:
Why else would a pilot call? My feeling in to tell the who, where, and why...
Click to expand...

Maybe because you just want to transit the space, or maybe you want to land.

Why is it wrong to initiate contact with, "request" after our N-number?

Eventually, we'll be able to bat this crap around between the three remaining GA pilots and the two controllers. "Winning!", as Charlie Sheen might say.
 
The mental giants at HQ keep saying "ignore thread" is on their list, but it never shows up.

Trapper John said:
Maybe because you just want to transit the space, or maybe you want to land.

Why is it wrong to initiate contact with, "request" after our N-number?

Eventually, we'll be able to bat this crap around between the three remaining GA pilots and the two controllers. "Winning!", as Charlie Sheen might say.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
The mental giants at HQ keep saying "ignore thread" is on their list, but it never shows up.
Click to expand...

Perhaps one could bribe the right person at a certain Arkanasas location sometime in June.
 
I tried some bribery the last time I was there but she didn't seem to be interested. Oh, sorry, I forgot; that was another subject of interest.

This time I'll try to remember to bring a sackful of small unmarked.


jesse said:
Perhaps one could bribe the right person at a certain Arkanasas location sometime in June.
Click to expand...
 
Trapper John said:
+1. I think the key word is "request" upon initial contact. That tells the controller you want something, and gives them the ability to respond based on his/her workload.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't. "Request" tells them nothing.

"Metro Tower, Bugsmasher 1234A" tells the controller you want something and gives them the ability to respond based on his/her workload. "Request" wastes two syllables worth of frequency time.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
It depends really, if it's an airport Tower & Ground I usually go like this:

"Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles out to the South, inbound to land on Runway 20, with information Charlie."
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I can see several potential improvements here.

1. "out to the" is extraneous.
2. Tower tells you which runway to land on, not the other way around.
3. "inbound to land" can be shortened (see below)
4. "information" is somewhat extraneous.

So, here's my suggested modified version of what you've written above:

"Metro Tower, Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles south, landing with Charlie." That gets exactly the same information across, but saves fifteen syllables, which can be a fairly significant amount of frequency time.
 
denverpilot said:
You should add your altitude and descending, level, or climbing to the abbreviated call-up for departures for sure. They don't have to play 20-questions for the altitude verification to give you "Radar Contact" that way. Especially if you're IFR or already on a discreet transponder code.

Makes their lives a little easier, if they're already expecting you. Confirm your altitude in the data block on the screen as you're saying it, instant "Radar Contact".
Click to expand...

Ahh thanks for catching that! I usually say my altitude when I'm climbing or descending. :)

flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm. I can see several potential improvements here.

1. "out to the" is extraneous.
2. Tower tells you which runway to land on, not the other way around.
3. "inbound to land" can be shortened (see below)
4. "information" is somewhat extraneous.

So, here's my suggested modified version of what you've written above:

"Metro Tower, Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles south, landing with Charlie." That gets exactly the same information across, but saves fifteen syllables, which can be a fairly significant amount of frequency time.
Click to expand...

Hmmm interesting, thanks for the tip! I'll try it next time.
 
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EdFred said:
Every time I call up with the full blown "(Facility), Comanche 727DS, (location), (direction), (altitude), request flight following to (destination)"

I always get "Aircraft calling (facility) can you say that again" or "7DS I didn't get all that, say again."

When I've been on a facility tours, they have repeatedly said they only want the tail number to start, because a lot of the time they aren't ready to copy everything down, and you're just going to have to tell them again anyway.
Click to expand...

For flight following, I agree - Though rather than just a callsign or callsign plus the extraneous "request", I'd say "<Facility>, <callsign> request traffic advisories." That way if they're too busy they can say "unable" without needing an extra exchange.

I make this call often:

"Madison Approach, Diamond Star 569DS, Juneau, 4,500, landing with XRay." Gets the necessary information across as efficiently as possible. If I'm flying in (and call in as, you smartasses) the 182, I never get a request for further information. I have a couple of times in the DA40, usually a request for "Say aircraft type?" because we're the only Diamond Star based on the field, we haven't had that plane very long, and they're unfamiliar with it.

I do make sure to say it clearly and without going too fast at the beginning, which gives the controller a chance to pick up their pen while I'm still on "Madison Approach..." and take down the request. It may make people feel cool to rattle things off as quickly as they can, but better communication occurs when fewer words are used rather than less time per word - Speak at a moderate pace and get rid of the extraneous words.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
"Metro Tower, Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles south, landing with Charlie." That gets exactly the same information across, but saves fifteen syllables, which can be a fairly significant amount of frequency time.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you can even shave off more syllables if you use the standard reporting points that have those nifty flags on the sectional.

I tend to leave off the altitude at callup because I tend to be in my initial descent and by the time he gets around to give me a squawk the altitude would be meaningless. I throw in the altitude at the time I read back the squawk which avoids another conversation.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm. I can see several potential improvements here.

1. "out to the" is extraneous.
2. Tower tells you which runway to land on, not the other way around.
3. "inbound to land" can be shortened (see below)
4. "information" is somewhat extraneous.

So, here's my suggested modified version of what you've written above:

"Metro Tower, Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten miles south, landing with Charlie." That gets exactly the same information across, but saves fifteen syllables, which can be a fairly significant amount of frequency time.
Click to expand...

I don't even say miles.

"...Cherokee 3663Romeo, ten south, full stop Charlie."

I just knocked out 2 more syllables. ;)
 
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