Samsung Pay - Game Changer

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 23, 2005
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Castle Rock, CO
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Everything Offends Me
Needs more banks, but for now, I'm enjoying using it with my corporate AMEX.

Basically, it takes what every other wallet app fails to do (Apple Pay, Android Pay, etc), and makes it work - mobile pay without having to rely on the merchant to upgrade to a new NFC machine.

MST emits magnetic stripe data, so you simply hold the phone next to the swiper, and it works. Touchless magnetic stripe. I absolutely love it!

And I can't wait until Apple pilfers the idea and the fanboys claim it was Apple's great invention all along.
 
SkyHog said:
Needs more banks, but for now, I'm enjoying using it with my corporate AMEX.

Basically, it takes what every other wallet app fails to do (Apple Pay, Android Pay, etc), and makes it work - mobile pay without having to rely on the merchant to upgrade to a new NFC machine.

MST emits magnetic stripe data, so you simply hold the phone next to the swiper, and it works. Touchless magnetic stripe. I absolutely love it!
Click to expand...

Apple invented this and Samsung has a license for it. Samsung got it to market first but Apple gets a royalty so they didn't care.
 
Clark1961 said:
Apple invented this and Samsung has a license for it. Samsung got it to market first but Apple gets a royalty so they didn't care.
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I think you meant to say "LoopPay" invented it, and Samsung bought them.
 
Aren't chip cards due this month? Doesn't that make the stripes start disappearing?
 
The technology is cool, but what I don't understand about this and applepay and the others is what is being gained.

Pulling out my phone and tapping a button doesn't seem to be a huge time saver over pulling out my wallet and swiping a credit card.

Now, if we could start putting things like driver's licenses, pilot certificates, etc on the phone and have that to be legally valid ID/documentation then we'd have something of value, I could leave my wallet at home and carry one less thing.
 
It's pointless - chipped readers are nearly everywhere. Many consumers have chipped cards now. The liability shift was Oct 1.

Swipe will be gone before we know it.

This would have been a game changer if it would have been introduced like, two years ago.
 
Chipped cards, and readers are going to stop all the credit card theft!

Until a way is found around that.
 
jesse said:
It's pointless - chipped readers are nearly everywhere. Many consumers have chipped cards now. The liability shift was Oct 1.

Swipe will be gone before we know it.

This would have been a game changer if it would have been introduced like, two years ago.
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Nearly everywhere? Nebraska must be way ahead on technology than California, Colorado, and New Mexico...
 
LDJones said:
Aren't chip cards due this month? Doesn't that make the stripes start disappearing?
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Yes. And that means in 20 years, when the existing machines break, smaller retailers will replace their machibes.
 
SkyHog said:
Nearly everywhere? Nebraska must be way ahead on technology than California, Colorado, and New Mexico...
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Wait and see. It's happening pretty quickly. That said, most of the chip readers aren't online yet...but the hardware distribution is happening faster than I expected.
 
cowman said:
The technology is cool, but what I don't understand about this and applepay and the others is what is being gained.

Pulling out my phone and tapping a button doesn't seem to be a huge time saver over pulling out my wallet and swiping a credit card.

Now, if we could start putting things like driver's licenses, pilot certificates, etc on the phone and have that to be legally valid ID/documentation then we'd have something of value, I could leave my wallet at home and carry one less thing.
Click to expand...

For me, it's not time, it's convenience. I always have my phone. I would rather have one less thing to worry about, namely my wallet. I haven't used cash in years, so the wallet serves nothing but to store my credit cards and drivers license.
 
I noticed today the TrueValue in Elizabeth had a chip reader. The clerk put the customer's card in the chip slot but it didn't have a chip. Maybe they recently got it because she seemed confused that it didn't work. Finally she swiped it.
 
jesse said:
Wait and see. It's happening pretty quickly. That said, most of the chip readers aren't online yet...but the hardware distribution is happening faster than I expected.
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Samsung Pay does both NFC and MST, so it will still be relevant. The difference is that the small retailers that won't convert for years will still be able to accept Samsung Pay
 
jesse said:
Wait and see. It's happening pretty quickly. That said, most of the chip readers aren't online yet...but the hardware distribution is happening faster than I expected.
Click to expand...

In our 8 restaurants, we've decided to wait for now. Too much investment required.
 
I can't recall the exact amount but it was required additional equipment per terminal (our current POS integrates the card swipe with the POS. So we couldn't just change that out). Also, we still haven't figured out how to do the pin thing in a restaurant setting. I guess we'll move more to the European model of processing the transaction at the table vs take away the card.

And given the relatively low transaction size, the shift of liability does not appear to be that great for us...until we're overrun with fraud!
 
The terminals are $300 (but some companies comp them) and we have heard of $800 charges from the biz software/hardware providers where the devices are integrated.
 
Processing the transaction at the table is not strictly euro. I've had this done in Brazil, ecuador, belize, austrailia, new zealand, and french Polynesia.

Brazil was the worst because they did not understand chip + signature and kept wanting me to put a pin in. And I spoke no Portuguese.
Sam D said:
I can't recall the exact amount but it was required additional equipment per terminal (our current POS integrates the card swipe with the POS. So we couldn't just change that out). Also, we still haven't figured out how to do the pin thing in a restaurant setting. I guess we'll move more to the European model of processing the transaction at the table vs take away the card.

And given the relatively low transaction size, the shift of liability does not appear to be that great for us...until we're overrun with fraud!
Click to expand...
 
ethosunum said:
Processing the transaction at the table is not strictly euro. I've had this done in Brazil, ecuador, belize, austrailia, new zealand, and french Polynesia.

Brazil was the worst because they did not understand chip + signature and kept wanting me to put a pin in. And I spoke no Portuguese.
Click to expand...

Processing at the table has also been done in Canada for at least a few years. Their machines can process both chip and swipe.
 
Sam D said:
In our 8 restaurants, we've decided to wait for now. Too much investment required.
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Surely you've been pitched the portable swipe/sign/print readers that the server can carry to the table? Patron enters the total and tip, can sign with their finger or a stylus or signature may have been waived. The only paper copy is the one given to the customer. Every restaurant I went to in Canada two years ago used them. Is it cost that kept US merchants from adopting or something else?

ETA: Dangers of not reading down the thread... You've mentioned this already.
 
SkyHog said:
Yes. And that means in 20 years, when the existing machines break, smaller retailers will replace their machibes.
Click to expand...

It'll happen immediately after your small retailer gets billed back for a fraud claim. They can't afford not to upgrade. I expect the bad guys will begin to circulate lists of retailers who still accept swipes.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
It'll happen immediately after your small retailer gets billed back for a fraud claim. They can't afford not to upgrade. I expect the bad guys will begin to circulate lists of retailers who still accept swipes.

-Skip
Click to expand...

I think you understate thr (necessary) stinginess of thr small business.
 
Apple invented the rectangle, you pay royalties to make a rectangular object. Pay double if said object contains a grid of icons.
 
DJTorrente said:
Is it cost that kept US merchants from adopting or something else?
Click to expand...
We (the people who go to Canada with me) were guessing that it must be some kind of regulation which has kept this out of the US, or why would almost every Canadian restaurant we patronize, big and small, have this technology but none in the US? Another person speculated it was fear of someone intercepting the wireless signal.
 
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SkyHog said:
I think you understate thr (necessary) stinginess of thr small business.
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I think you underestimate their liability to fraud. They've been told to upgrade. If they don't, then they are responsible for the fraud. When they get a bad swipe and are told "sorry, but that was just a swipe, it's on you", it will cost a lot more than the few hundred dollars for a new chip machine.

I agree that the bad guys will probably circulate lists of who still accepts swipes. Chip and Pin has been the standard in Europe for years. In the US, the fraud has not been as bad so they've delayed the change. The fraud is increasing and the change is being forced by the big guys.
 
ethosunum said:
Brazil was the worst because they did not understand chip + signature and kept wanting me to put a pin in.
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I can see why they didn't understand. I don't understand either -- why does Brazil get the superior chip + pin, but America gets the inferior chip + signature?
 
Everskyward said:
We (the people who go to Canada with me) were guessing that it must be some kind of regulation which has kept this out of the US, or why would almost every Canadian restaurant we patronize, big and small, have this technology but none in the US? Another person speculated it was fear of someone intercepting the wireless signal.
Click to expand...

From a restaurant perspective:

Our POS stations (and I believe those of most major vendors: Micros, Aloha, etc) have the card swipe integrated with the terminal. Its not only used for credit cards but also to identify managers. So, in order to process the card at the table, it would take an investment in additional hardware. And so far, there just hasn't been a customer demand for it. Or put another way, folks don't feel like they're losing business by not having it.

While the concern about intercepting a wireless signal is valid, it is nowhere near top of mind for most folks running restaurants.

All of that being said, we realize that nobody wins when a customer has finished their meal and has to wait for: check to be brought, card to be picked up, card to be scanned and cc slip to be returned to the table.

While interesting, the Chili's, BWW model of putting units on the table "cheapens" the dining experience. In then end, I think we'll migrate to something like what ApplePay/OpenTable is offering where you can close out a transaction on your phone -- similar kind of evolution to the airlines where they seem to be moving away from seat back entertainment (i.e. out of the hardware business) and toward a more BYOD model.
 
Sam D said:
And so far, there just hasn't been a customer demand for it.
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That's probably because, unless someone has traveled out of the country, they don't know it exists. When we first encountered it in Canada, we thought it was great. That is, except for the person who was worried about the wireless signal being intercepted. But then he is opposed to chips, which are coming whether he likes it or not.
 
Everskyward said:
That's probably because, unless someone has traveled out of the country, they don't know it exists. When we first encountered it in Canada, we thought it was great. That is, except for the person who was worried about the wireless signal being intercepted. But then he is opposed to chips, which are coming whether he likes it or not.
Click to expand...

But even in the finest restaurants where you can't get out in under a few hundred $, they take away your card. I would guess the majority of the customers in these establishments have been out of the country.

As someone who is aware of what's offered outside the U.S., have you modified your U.S. dining habits? Until there is lost revenue (or higher costs through fraud), I wouldn't expect things to change.

As an analogy, in another one of our businesses, AmEx keeps telling us that our members want us to take AmEx. We keep telling them to let us know when our non-members want us to take it! :)
 
Sam D said:
As someone who is aware of what's offered outside the U.S., have you modified your U.S. dining habits?
Click to expand...
I've been to exactly one restaurant in the US which offered this, and that was in Farmington, NM, so it would be impractical to modify my dining habits due to this. Besides, there's no way to know who offers this until they bring out the machine.

All things being equal, I choose merchants which take credit cards over those which don't. But there is usually a sign in the door.
 
Sam D said:
But even in the finest restaurants where you can't get out in under a few hundred $, they take away your card.
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I realize that you are talking about the US.

In Europe this summer, restaurants sometimes brought a portable credit card machine to my table, because they expected to need me to enter a PIN for my chipped credit card. My card never left my table.

So that seems to be a further advantage of chip-and-pin. The merchant is less likely to take your card out of your sight.
 
Skip Miller said:
It'll happen immediately after your small retailer gets billed back for a fraud claim. They can't afford not to upgrade. I expect the bad guys will begin to circulate lists of retailers who still accept swipes.
Click to expand...
The liability shift is probably not that significant for most small retailers. It only exists in the cases where a chip-card's mag stripe is cloned and then the cloned card is used in a mag-stripe-only reader or a chip-and-PIN card is stolen and used in a stripe-only reader. In any other case, the liability still falls on the issuer. Of the four cards in my wallet right now, only one has a chip. I expect it will be quite a while before all cards are chipped, and in the meantime, the crooks will be targeting the non-chipped cards since that will raise the least suspicion. Of course the majority of credit-card fraud occurs with card-not-present transactions anyway, and merchants continue to perform these transactions despite bearing the bulk of liability for them.

I'm sure the industry has projections, but it doesn't appear to me that the various liability regimes are really what drive small-business behavior. What really motivates behavior is the fees applied.
 
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Sam D said:
As someone who is aware of what's offered outside the U.S., have you modified your U.S. dining habits? Until there is lost revenue (or higher costs through fraud), I wouldn't expect things to change.
Click to expand...


The ones I have used offered a pre-calculated tip choice of:

  • 15%
  • 20%
  • 25%
  • Other


I assume most people, like myself, don't want to be seen as cheap, so we choose the 20 or 25% number for speed, and out of not wanting to be cheap.

Not sure what the standard tip is in your places, but, if the table side checkout bumps the average tip, then you are losing revenue (for your employees).
 
JoseCuervo said:
The ones I have used offered a pre-calculated tip choice of:

  • 15%
  • 20%
  • 25%
  • Other


I assume most people, like myself, don't want to be seen as cheap, so we choose the 20 or 25% number for speed, and out of not wanting to be cheap.

Not sure what the standard tip is in your places, but, if the table side checkout bumps the average tip, then you are losing revenue (for your employees).
Click to expand...
The ones I have seen either have a preprogrammed tip that you can change, or you can punch in a tip that is either a dollar amount or a percent.

I agree that some people may be lazy and accept the preprogrammed amount which might be less (or more) than they would otherwise give.
 
From what I've seen so far, the US isn't going Chip-and-PIN, only "Chip". If someone steals your chip card and you don't realize it, they can use it just the same as if they stole a mag stripe-only card.

Also, at least one major processor in the US still doesn't have their chip acceptance software working properly, and has delayed merchant liability for their customers until next spring.
 
Everskyward said:
The ones I have seen either have a preprogrammed tip that you can change, or you can punch in a tip that is either a dollar amount or a percent.

I agree that some people may be lazy and accept the preprogrammed amount which might be less (or more) than they would otherwise give.
Click to expand...


I think the ones I have seen were something like

15% / $8.93
20% / $13.43
25% $17.86
Other -----> would flip you to another screen/menu

And, yes, I can be lazy and accept a pre-programmed amount. I have done plenty of math in my time, and the end of a meal is not that important of a time for me to exercise my ability to show off my abilities.

(On a sign and tip receipt, I usually just write a round number on the TOTAL line and allow the waitress the opportunity to do the math to figure her own tip.)
 
Jeff Oslick said:
From what I've seen so far, the US isn't going Chip-and-PIN, only "Chip". If someone steals your chip card and you don't realize it, they can use it just the same as if they stole a mag stripe-only card.

Also, at least one major processor in the US still doesn't have their chip acceptance software working properly, and has delayed merchant liability for their customers until next spring.
Click to expand...


Does the consumer/cardholder have any liability on that? I think all my credit card agreements remove that liability from me.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Does the consumer/cardholder have any liability on that? I think all my credit card agreements remove that liability from me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they all feature zero liability for fraud; but it's still a hassle when card numbers get stolen. I've gone through it a few times. I'd rather have Chip and PIN. I guess the banking industry thinks Americans are too stupid to memorize a PIN. (They may be right about that.)

The biggest benefit to EMV cards without the PIN is that the "chip" is -- at least for the time being -- impossible to clone. It's an interactive device, not just a storage medium like the magstripe. It cannot be read using commodity hardware like a magstripe can.

Rich
 
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