Safety pilot time in a retract count as retract time?

Witmo said:
teejayevans said:
You need to have a better understanding of "acting" vs merely logging PIC. To be the acting PIC, you need the endorsement (and the training unless you're grandfathered). You don't need the endorsement to log PIC as the sole manipulator.
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So you think you can log PIC even if you cannot act as PIC?!
Alrighty,
We will have to agree to disagree....
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Thanks for your answer on my question Tim.

That makes sense in the fact that a pilot can log as PIC in a plane they are not endorsed in, provided that an endorsed pilot is present. Otherwise it would be near impossible to log hours outside of having a cfi alongside.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Typical day at POA....a simple question about logging time for insurance purposes turns into a fight over Safety Pilots and PIC logging.



We just can't have nice conversations...
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Meh, I've seen worse conversations. This is tame, and educational. If only some governmental organization overseeing pilots had written a few regulations to actually be readable, there wouldn't be questions on this stuff.
 
woodchucker said:
Meh, I've seen worse conversations. This is tame, and educational. If only some governmental organization overseeing pilots had written a few regulations to actually be readable, there wouldn't be questions on this stuff.
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It could be educational, but we go through this argument her at POA literally every 2-3 months. And while people are arguing about something that has long since been asked and answered, they aren't addressing the actual question asked.
 
woodchucker said:
That makes sense in the fact that a pilot can log as PIC in a plane they are not endorsed in, provided that an endorsed pilot is present. Otherwise it would be near impossible to log hours outside of having a cfi alongside.
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What?! Impossible?!
A. Get your complex endorsement.
B. Fly and log hours as PIC
What's so difficult about that?
You can still log hours without the endorsement, just not PIC.
 
teejayevans said:
What?! Impossible?!
A. Get your complex endorsement.
B. Fly and log hours as PIC
What's so difficult about that?
You can still log hours without the endorsement, just not PIC.
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Stop saying that. You are wrong. PPSEL + sole manipulator is all you need to log PIC time in complex as long as you have a current and qualified pilot to ACT as PIC. I logged every minute it took to get my endorsement for complex as PIC and dual.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It could be educational, but we go through this argument her at POA literally every 2-3 months. And while people are arguing about something that has long since been asked and answered, they aren't addressing the actual question asked.
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I'm late to the party so if what I say is a repeat, so be it. But since you said no one answered it, I'll take a shot.

It doesn't matter. Except for dual required for the commercial certificate and for receiving the endorsement, the FAA doesn't keep track of retract or complex time. It's not a 61.51 logging item.

So, the only ones who may care are an insurer or rental place and, if they ask, they will let you know how they define what they want.

So, witihout the endorsement, go ahead an log the non-PIC time in a retract column you make up for yourself. But be aware that you may need to cull some of those entries for whoever might ask for it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It could be educational, but we go through this argument her at POA literally every 2-3 months. And while people are arguing about something that has long since been asked and answered, they aren't addressing the actual question asked.
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Yeah, people scratching for hours. Settled rules, even a flow chart. But when folks don't like the answer it must be wrong.
 
teejayevans said:
So you think you can log PIC even if you cannot act as PIC?!
Alrighty,
We will have to agree to disagree....
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midlifeflyer said:
It doesn't matter. Except for dual required for the commercial certificate and for receiving the endorsement, the FAA doesn't keep track of retract or complex time. It's not a 61.51 logging item.
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Umm.... the FAA very much cares if you're going for your commercial 61.129 requires 10 hours of training in a complex aircraft (though they don't call it complex, they define the time in the same way...flaps, controllable propeller, retractible gear).
 
flyingron said:
Umm.... the FAA very much cares if you're going for your commercial 61.129 requires 10 hours of training in a complex aircraft (though they don't call it complex, they define the time in the same way...flaps, controllable propeller, retractible gear).
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Which is why Mark said Except for the dual required... ;)
 
teejayevans said:
So you think you can log PIC even if you cannot act as PIC?!
Alrighty,
We will have to agree to disagree....
Click to expand...

The FAA agrees with him:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/herman - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

Excerpt:

"Accordingly, in your examples, the pilot may log PIC time if that pilot is properly rated for the aircraft flown even though that pilot does not have the required endorsements to act as a PIC."​

The relevant logging regulation is 61.51(e)(1)(i). It states no requirement to ACT as pilot-in-command:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;​

(The FAA document cites additional regulations in support of their interpretation.)
 

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Fearless Tower said:
It could be educational, but we go through this argument her at POA literally every 2-3 months. And while people are arguing about something that has long since been asked and answered, they aren't addressing the actual question asked.
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You are an experienced pilot. Not all of us are. If we were this forum may not exist.
 
Palmpilot said:
The FAA agrees with him:



http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/herman - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf



Excerpt:



"Accordingly, in your examples, the pilot may log PIC time if that pilot is properly rated for the aircraft flown even though that pilot does not have the required endorsements to act as a PIC."​



The relevant logging regulation is 61.51(e)(1)(i). It states no requirement to ACT as pilot-in-command:



(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.



(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-



(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;​



(The FAA document cites additional regulations in support of their interpretation.)
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Nice post, with references even ,thanks for info.
I checked my logs, in both cases the CFI did not log me as
PIC until last flight.
 
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teejayevans said:
Nice post, with references even ,thanks for info.
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Thanks, and you're welcome. I try to post references because I don't have credentials of an authority on either aviation or law.

I checked my logs, in both cases the CFI did not log me as
PIC until last flight.
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Some CFIs are not as well versed on the regulations as they should be.
 
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Seems like number of cycles would be more important than number of hours.
 
Yeah, because putting the little lever with the little wheel on it to the down position once per long cross country is such a momentous test of aviating skills. That is why it is called complex. Let's just forget about the prop and flaps which require more managing or more touches during a typical flight. Complex is all about the retract gear. :D
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does anyone actually log, count and track retract time?
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Yes. Avemco asks me for my retractable time, among other things, every year when it's time to renew my renter's insurance. And my flying club asks for it when their members get checked out in a new aircraft type.
 
Maybe we should track the number of times the landing light was used instead (/sarcasm). Or how about the number of flashes of the strobe.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yes. Avemco asks me for my retractable time, among other things, every year when it's time to renew my renter's insurance. And my flying club asks for it when their members get checked out in a new aircraft type.
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My owners insurance asks for time in type, so now I keep track of that.
 
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