Safety pilot time in a retract count as retract time?

Bonchie

Bonchie

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Bonchie
Toward insurance minimums? Flew safety pilot for a guy in a 182RG a few weeks ago.

I mean, I was technically PIC right?
 
Bonchie said:
Toward insurance minimums? Flew safety pilot for a guy in a 182RG a few weeks ago.

I mean, I was technically PIC right?
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I wouldn't think you would be PIC as the safety pilot.
 
No, you need a complex endorsement, it takes only a few hrs, the last flight you get the endorsement and that counts as PIC
 
teejayevans said:
No, you need a complex endorsement, it takes only a few hrs, the last flight you get the endorsement and that counts as PIC
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Huh?

Category, class and type (if required).

If you're rated for ASEL, you're rated for every ASEL under 12,500 unless it's got a turbine.

You log PIC for every moment you spend at the controls of a complex aircraft as long as you have an ASEL certificate.

As a safety pilot, you log PIC as well if you are the acting PIC. You can only do that if you're endorsed for complex, in a complex aircraft. It's unusual for the safety pilot to be acting PIC, but it can happen. I had it happen once when we needed an IFR clearance, and only the right seat was instrument rated.
 
My friend who was a U-2 pilot wanted to know if he could fly my plane. I told him the insurance requires 25 hours of retract time and asked if the wheels fall off your plane does that count as retract time.
 
PIC and saftey pilot can log PIC, PIC in the plane is PIC in the plane, so yeah count the RG time.

As long as buddy is under the hood, or you're on the controls it's PIC in whatever, so let it count for your insurance.
 
flyingron said:
My friend who was a U-2 pilot wanted to know if he could fly my plane. I told him the insurance requires 25 hours of retract time and asked if the wheels fall off your plane does that count as retract time.
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But can he put them back on again for landing? :wink2::D
 
Endorsements have ZERO bearing on logging of PIC time, only Cat, Class and Type (if rated).

You are able to LOG PIC time if it was agreed that your function was that of a required crew member per the FARs. As a Safety Pilot when the ACTING PIC is under the hood, you are able to log THAT time and that time only.
 
flyingron said:
My friend who was a U-2 pilot wanted to know if he could fly my plane. I told him the insurance requires 25 hours of retract time and asked if the wheels fall off your plane does that count as retract time.
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The big center wheel goes up. That's gotta count for at least 1/3 of something. :wink2:
 
flyingron said:
My friend who was a U-2 pilot wanted to know if he could fly my plane. I told him the insurance requires 25 hours of retract time and asked if the wheels fall off your plane does that count as retract time.
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Pretty sure 'retract' implies the gear stays with you...

Do ya need an instrument rating to fly through the Class A VFR and cruise at FL650?
 
flyingron said:
My friend who was a U-2 pilot wanted to know if he could fly my plane. I told him the insurance requires 25 hours of retract time and asked if the wheels fall off your plane does that count as retract time.
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Cute.

The U-2 has detachable pogos on the wings, but the two fuselage gear are retractible.

It's a retract.
 
James331 said:
PIC and saftey pilot can log PIC, PIC in the plane is PIC in the plane, so yeah count the RG time.

As long as buddy is under the hood, or you're on the controls it's PIC in whatever, so let it count for your insurance.
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I'm well aware of that. I always act as PIC as safety pilot so I can get the time when they are under the hood. That wasn't the question. :wink2:
 
Bonchie said:
I'm well aware of that. I always act as PIC as safety pilot so I can get the time when they are under the hood. That wasn't the question. :wink2:
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Maybe I didn't word it well.

YES you can count the retract time
 
Captain said:
Pretty sure 'retract' implies the gear stays with you...

Do ya need an instrument rating to fly through the Class A VFR and cruise at FL650?
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I'm sure this is a Socratic question.

Of course he knows that Class A is 18,000-60,000 (FL180-FL600) and an IR is required in that airspace. Above that an IR isn't required as it's Class G.
 
James331 said:
Maybe I didn't word it well.

YES you can count the retract time
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Cool. When you said RG I thought you just meant the 182RG time overall.

I figured. If I'm PIC, I'm PIC and it should count as retract just the same as it'd count as anything else.
 
As long as you're legal to act as PIC (properly rated, complex endorsement, current, have medical, etc...) and you both agreed that you're PIC ... it's completely valid PIC time (and it's in a complex plane... so I can't imagine how you couldn't log it as complex).

Unless the insurance company has a different definition of PIC (or flight time) than the FAA, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't count.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
I'm sure this is a Socratic question.

Of course he knows that Class A is 18,000-60,000 (FL180-FL600) and an IR is required in that airspace. Above that an IR isn't required as it's Class G.
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It's Class E, and not all the world has Class A airspace below it. For instance, the some parts of Alaska and all of Hawaii.
 
James331 said:
PIC and saftey pilot can log PIC, PIC in the plane is PIC in the plane, so yeah count the RG time.
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Sigh. The safety pilot may or may not be able to log PIC. If the Safety Pilot is legal in all respects to log PIC in that airplane, and it is agreed upon beforehand that the Safety Pilot will assume those responsibilities, then and ONLY then may the Safety Pilot log the time as PIC. And ONLY that time while the other pilot is wearing a view limiting device.

To make a blanket statement that the Safety Pilot may log PIC time is wrong. There are times when the Safety Pilot may NOT log PIC time. If the Safety Pilot does not have the proper endorsements, he may not log PIC. If the Safety Pilot is not current for the particular flight, he may not log PIC.

As long as buddy is under the hood, or you're on the controls it's PIC in whatever, so let it count for your insurance.
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As long as the conditions are met to do so.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Sigh. The safety pilot may or may not be able to log PIC. If the Safety Pilot is legal in all respects to log PIC in that airplane, and it is agreed upon beforehand that the Safety Pilot will assume those responsibilities, then and ONLY then may the Safety Pilot log the time as PIC. And ONLY that time while the other pilot is wearing a view limiting device.

To make a blanket statement that the Safety Pilot may log PIC time is wrong. There are times when the Safety Pilot may NOT log PIC time. If the Safety Pilot does not have the proper endorsements, he may not log PIC. If the Safety Pilot is not current for the particular flight, he may not log PIC.



As long as the conditions are met to do so.
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I think this was already covered.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Endorsements have ZERO bearing on logging of PIC time, only Cat, Class and Type (if rated).
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Only if you're logging time based upon being the sole manipulator of the controls, which is not the case of the safety pilot.

Jaybird180 said:
You are able to LOG PIC time if it was agreed that your function was that of a required crew member per the FARs. As a Safety Pilot when the ACTING PIC is under the hood, you are able to log THAT time and that time only.
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If the "acting PIC" is under the hood, the safety pilot is therefore not acting PIC, and cannot log PIC. He can log SIC.
 
MAKG1 said:
Huh?



Category, class and type (if required).



If you're rated for ASEL, you're rated for every ASEL under 12,500 unless it's got a turbine.



You log PIC for every moment you spend at the controls of a complex aircraft as long as you have an ASEL certificate.



As a safety pilot, you log PIC as well if you are the acting PIC. You can only do that if you're endorsed for complex, in a complex aircraft. It's unusual for the safety pilot to be acting PIC, but it can happen. I had it happen once when we needed an IFR clearance, and only the right seat was instrument rated.
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No, "61.31(e) additional training required for complex airplanes" says otherwise
 
dmspilot said:
If the "acting PIC" is under the hood, the safety pilot is therefore not acting PIC, and cannot log PIC. He can log SIC.
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Not just SIC, but AFAIK, also complex time (regardless of whether the SIC has a complex endorsement) which may be enough to appease the insurance company depending on whether they ask for "complex time" or "PIC complex time".
 
dmspilot said:
Only if you're logging time based upon being the sole manipulator of the controls, which is not the case of the safety pilot.



If the "acting PIC" is under the hood, the safety pilot is therefore not acting PIC, and cannot log PIC. He can log SIC.
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There is no SIC in the regs pertaining to SP. Its an outdated term.
 
Jaybird180 said:
There is no SIC in the regs pertaining to SP. Its an outdated term.
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There is no PIC in the regs pertaining to SP, so your argument is useless. The safety pilot cannot log PIC time if he or she is not the PIC. So what does he or she log? It must be of the following five categories:

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
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SIC is not an "outdated term", I don't know how you came up with that idea.
 
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Sigh. As often as the issue of logging time comes up, folks still struggle with logging time. That said, this thread really isn't about FAA logging of time...

Bonchie said:
Toward insurance minimums? Flew safety pilot for a guy in a 182RG a few weeks ago.

I mean, I was technically PIC right?
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As noted, we don't know what you and the other pilot agreed to, but assuming you qualify to act as pilot in command, agreed to act as pilot in command, and logged the time the other pilot is under the hood as PIC time...then it comes down to the insurance company as to whether they'll consider it. Generally speaking, they don't differentiate PIC time between time spent as sole manipulator of the controls, and PIC time that wasn't hands on, but they certainly could if they wished. I'll also note that insurance companies often ask for total time, not necessarily PIC time, so you can count any time that you were sole manipulator of the controls even when you couldn't log PIC, such as as a student pilot, or training for a new category and class.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm sure this is a Socratic question.

Of course he knows that Class A is 18,000-60,000 (FL180-FL600) and an IR is required in that airspace. Above that an IR isn't required as it's Class G.
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Close, it's Class E.
 
Instead of making a separate thread, maybe someone can answer my question since it's sort of related.

I've only flown 172s as a private pilot. I flew with a fellow POA member (commercial rated) who rented a complex aircraft. He gave me around 80-90% stick time in both left and right seats on a 5+ hour flight. I'm not endorsed in a complex. Do I log that as dual only?

I just fly for fun, so I don't really care if it's logged or not. Haven't even put it in my book at all. Just curious how it should be categorized if I choose to log it.
 
woodchucker said:
Instead of making a separate thread, maybe someone can answer my question since it's sort of related.

I've only flown 172s as a private pilot. I flew with a fellow POA member (commercial rated) who rented a complex aircraft. He gave me around 80-90% stick time in both left and right seats on a 5+ hour flight. I'm not endorsed in a complex. Do I log that as dual only?

I just fly for fun, so I don't really care if it's logged or not. Haven't even put it in my book at all. Just curious how it should be categorized if I choose to log it.
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You only log dual from a CFI. You would log any time you were the sole manipulator of the controls as complex PIC. No need to have the endorsement for complex as long as the other guy was the actual PIC for the flight. He would not log PIC time during the time you were doing the flying. Now if you had slapped on a hood, you both could have logged PIC time during the time you were flying.
 
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Bonchie said:
The big center wheel goes up. That's gotta count for at least 1/3 of something. :wink2:
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Yeah, he was quick to point that out to me and that the tail wheel also retracts.

He also pointed out that he flew B-52s before U-2s as well. Interesting career, his last assignment was flying a Cessna 182 (he was liaison to the CAP guys).
 
teejayevans said:
No, "61.31(e) additional training required for complex airplanes" says otherwise.
MAKG1 said:
If you're rated for ASEL, you're rated for every ASEL under 12,500 unless it's got a turbine.

You log PIC for every moment you spend at the controls of a complex aircraft as long as you have an ASEL certificate.

As a safety pilot, you log PIC as well if you are the acting PIC. You can only do that if you're endorsed for complex, in a complex aircraft.
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What exactly are you disagreeing with? All 3 of MAKG1's statements above are true if you add the requirements of the first sentence to the second.
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Typical day at POA....a simple question about logging time for insurance purposes turns into a fight over Safety Pilots and PIC logging.

picard-triple-facepalm-3.jpg


We just can't have nice conversations...
 
I generally stay out of these logging threads. I have thoroughly learned that the logging rules are way too hard for me to learn!! :D

That said, there is definitely some disagreement here among knowledgeable people about the endorsement requirement.

Also, it's *jet* if it's under 12,500, not turbine.
 
teejayevans said:
gismo said:
No, 2nd statement is wrong, read 61.31(e), must satisfy (1) i and ii .
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You need to have a better understanding of "acting" vs merely logging PIC. To be the acting PIC, you need the endorsement (and the training unless you're grandfathered). You don't need the endorsement to log PIC as the sole manipulator.
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I think everyone puts way too much effort into thinking about how to log stuff...
 
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