Safe Handling of AvGas

kontiki said:
My first A&P job in aviation was at a small FBO in FL. The IA there used to wash grease off his hands with fuel from the Cessna wing tank sumps.
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There's no health centric intelligence required to being a mechanic. I used to work in a machine shop that did race engines as a kid. The owner cleaned his hands in acetone during assembly. He died of liver failure in his mid 50s, he wasn't a drinker either. Stupidity it the most limitless substance known to mankind.
 
zaitcev said:
The amount of TEL in 100LL is miniscule when compared to leaded gas that we used in cars. It's just not good if you accumulate it by, I dunno... Bathing in it daily? Or something.

Make sure not to enjoy the exhaust fumes too much and you'll be fine.
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Wrong.
 
Our field put catch cans in for fuel samples. I have a gatts jar but I'm not putting the contaminated stuff back in the tank no matter what they claim the screen in the thing is able to do. It goes in the red cans. The advantage of GATTS is it is LARGER than most fuel strainers which means you can take a more meaningful sample out. I rarely find anything in it so usually it goes right back in the tank.
 
If you read the Gatts jar instructions it tells you how the jar can tell you if you have jet fuel mixed in with the avgas. I use one because of the large amount of fuel it holds.
 
A MultiSump jar is almost required on the new Cessna's with their 10,000 fuel sump drain points. We have one of these in the club plane and it's a lifesaver, it holds just enough to test all 13 sump and strainer points then dump back in the tank.

Also, it's spelled GATS. :p
 
tehmightypirate said:
A MultiSump jar is almost required on the new Cessna's with their 10,000 fuel sump drain points. We have one of these in the club plane and it's a lifesaver, it holds just enough to test all 13 sump and strainer points then dump back in the tank.

Also, it's spelled GATS. :p
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GATS is sufficient

flyingron said:
Our field put catch cans in for fuel samples. I have a gatts jar but I'm not putting the contaminated stuff back in the tank no matter what they claim the screen in the thing is able to do. It goes in the red cans. The advantage of GATTS is it is LARGER than most fuel strainers which means you can take a more meaningful sample out. I rarely find anything in it so usually it goes right back in the tank.
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Get a sample of fuel in your GATS and intentionally contaminate it. Report back with your new findings on the operation of the GATS.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Get a sample of fuel in your GATS and intentionally contaminate it. Report back with your new findings on the operation of the GATS.
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I'd be really curious to see how well the filter works because I'm with Ron that anything contaminated is going anywhere but the tank as I wouldn't trust a $2 filter screen with anything that's not pebble sized and probably couldn't come out of the sump anyway.
 
Henning said:
Times how many people daily? A GATTS jar does the same job without dumping gas on the ground. I hope you teach your kid to have more respect than you do.
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Exactly, most people hate airports, we don't need to give them more reasons.:nonod:
 
I've tested the GATS ability to screen water from avgas. Works well. Haven't seen any "junk" in my experience yet
 
tehmightypirate said:
I'd be really curious to see how well the filter works because I'm with Ron that anything contaminated is going anywhere but the tank as I wouldn't trust a $2 filter screen with anything that's not pebble sized and probably couldn't come out of the sump anyway.
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Get one and find out, it works perfectly.
 
Henning said:
There's no health centric intelligence required to being a mechanic. I used to work in a machine shop that did race engines as a kid. The owner cleaned his hands in acetone during assembly. He died of liver failure in his mid 50s, he wasn't a drinker either. Stupidity it the most limitless substance known to mankind.
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Acetone is the major component of Absorbine Jr. liniment, like many liniments. 40 to 70%, according to their MSDS. Smear it all over your skin, dude.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...P7_5tkPnMNcVLKWDSyc-HHQ&bvm=bv.59930103,d.aWM

I had a friend who died of lung cancer at about 40. Never smoked in his life.

My dad washed his hands and machinery parts in leaded gasoline for years when he was a millwright. He's 88 now.

Still, I don't like getting Avgas on my hands. TEL was and still is nasty stuff. If nothing else, gasoline defats the skin, making it open to infection and more crack-prone. As I understand it, the white stuff on your hands after the gas dries is leached-out fat, not TEL.

Dan
 
I haven't read through the entire thread, but it should be noted that women of child baring age should take greater precautions when handling leaded fuel and avoid all skin contact.

The levels of lead in 100ll is higher than most people think. ;)
 
So, if this couple of ounces of lead in a few oz of fuel dumped on the ground or the tiny amount possibly spilled onto hands is a concern.... what about the gallons and gallons worth burned and blown out the tailpipe?

I'm not terribly worried either way, just curious.
 
cowman said:
So, if this couple of ounces of lead in a few oz of fuel dumped on the ground or the tiny amount possibly spilled onto hands is a concern.... what about the gallons and gallons worth burned and blown out the tailpipe?

I'm not terribly worried either way, just curious.
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There is a reason we don't have leaded fuel for cars anymore, or that lead in paint was banned decades ago. Its only a matter of time before lead in Avgas is gone too. ;)
 
My father and a doctor from Stanford University photographed the dissected human body in 3D. It took them 10 years. They would complain about the formaldehyde smell, so would smoke cigars.

They both died young, but their digitized work is still used in medical schools.
 
If I spill 100LL on my clothes should I throw them away? Or is it safe to wash them and wear them again? I don't want to get lead toxicity, although it's probably too late to worry about it. :rolleyes:
 
dmspilot said:
If I spill 100LL on my clothes should I throw them away? Or is it safe to wash them and wear them again? I don't want to get lead toxicity, although it's probably too late to worry about it. :rolleyes:
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Small amounts of lead are not a problem for adults. However, I would make an effort to keep any amount of lead away from a child. I've never seen (and never expect to see) any research suggesting any amount is safe for children.
 
Why is there leaded avgas? Is it really that much better than unleaded? What are the benefits? What are the risks of going to unleaded only?
 
JasonM said:
Why is there leaded avgas? Is it really that much better than unleaded? What are the benefits? What are the risks of going to unleaded only?
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Vapor pressure at altitude is the main issue, although it looks like Shell will have an unleaded AvGas on the market soon.
 
Henning said:
Vapor pressure at altitude is the main issue, although it looks like Shell will have an unleaded AvGas on the market soon.
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I think the difficulty in creating unleaded Avgas is the need for the high octane number, and it's expensive and complex to do that without TEL. 91 or maybe 92 is about the highest I've seen in Mogas.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
I think the difficulty in creating unleaded Avgas is the need for the high octane number, and it's expensive and complex to do that without TEL. 91 or maybe 92 is about the highest I've seen in Mogas.

Dan
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Huh.............

There has been high octane unleaded racing fuel for years.... :yes:
 
It's just a function of cost. There's several racing fuels that have R+M/2 octane ratings pretty high, up over 100 with no lead.

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/c20-spec-sheet

But it's very costly, and adding lead stabilizes the fuel, maintains good RVP, and allows the additives for high octane to work more efficiently.

Unleaded replacements for avgas can be made, and have been made. The crux of the problems right now are primarily political. The FAA doesn't want a single-source solution, and they are scared of any small refiner(not Shell, Phillips, Sunoco, etc) having a lock on the unleaded market.

Once one or more of the big boys makes an effort, the EPA will get busy and ban all leaded fuels, we'll all switch over, and scream about the price for a while, then it'll be business as usual with about a 10-30% increase in cost. Those who are smart will invest in planes that are STCed for unleaded mogas. Anyone with a turbo - is screwed.
 
docmirror said:
It's just a function of cost. There's several racing fuels that have R+M/2 octane ratings pretty high, up over 100 with no lead.

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/c20-spec-sheet

But it's very costly, and adding lead stabilizes the fuel, maintains good RVP, and allows the additives for high octane to work more efficiently.

Unleaded replacements for avgas can be made, and have been made. The crux of the problems right now are primarily political. The FAA doesn't want a single-source solution, and they are scared of any small refiner(not Shell, Phillips, Sunoco, etc) having a lock on the unleaded market.

Once one or more of the big boys makes an effort, the EPA will get busy and ban all leaded fuels, we'll all switch over, and scream about the price for a while, then it'll be business as usual with about a 10-30% increase in cost. Those who are smart will invest in planes that are STCed for unleaded mogas. Anyone with a turbo - is screwed.
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Sunoco was making unleaded racing fuel for NASCAR for years, and at a reasonable price considing the size of the market... They could have ramped up and increased production for GA pistons easiely... And the price would have come down ALOT.....

Economics 101..... it is called economy of scale..
 
N801BH said:
Sunoco was making unleaded racing fuel for NASCAR for years, and at a reasonable price considing the size of the market... They could have ramped up and increased production for GA pistons easiely... And the price would have come down ALOT.....

Economics 101..... it is called economy of scale..
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I talked to the guys at the Sunoco refinery when I was hauling crude in to them and asked them why they didn't go for the no lead aviation market. They said "We don't want anything to do with that market."
 
JasonM said:
Why is there leaded avgas? Is it really that much better than unleaded? What are the benefits? What are the risks of going to unleaded only?
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Leading into World War II the demand for more power and performance lead (no pun intended) to a demand for higher and higher octane fuel (more knock resistance). Tetra-ethyl lead was discoverd to be an inexpensive anti-knock gasoline additive so it was added to gasoline for aviation and automotive applications. There things sat until the 1970's when the increasingly stringent emission rules for automobiles required the auto manufacturers to install catalysts - which in turn required un-leaded fuel since the lead would poison the catalytic materials. About the same time, people determined that lead was a "bad thing" for the environment and health.

While unleaded fuel was developed for automobiles, there was no incentive to do the same for aviation applications since there were no emission limits and no catalysts. Plus, the standards / processes in place for aviation fuel pretty much stifles any development.

Now the pressure is on to remove the lead because spewing lead across the country from the air is seen as not such a good idea anymore. But, the problem is that unleaded alternatives that have a sufficiently high octane rating and also match the distillation curve requirements (which were designed to match the fuels of the 1940's) do not exist. So, it's this big problem for the FAA and their mission to never let anything change.
 
N801BH said:
Sunoco was making unleaded racing fuel for NASCAR for years, and at a reasonable price considing the size of the market... They could have ramped up and increased production for GA pistons easiely... And the price would have come down ALOT.....

Economics 101..... it is called economy of scale..
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Where is it? No one wants to make it. Politics. Swift fuels can make 100k barrels a year if they want. The FAA says no, so no it is.
 
docmirror said:
Where is it? No one wants to make it. Politics. Swift fuels can make 100k barrels a year if they want. The FAA says no, so no it is.
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Yup... And ALOT of companies will avoid aviation like the plauge... Liability is a well entrenched fear...

Don't even get me started on the Ford Motor Company..:nono::mad2:
 
Dan Thomas said:
I think the difficulty in creating unleaded Avgas is the need for the high octane number, and it's expensive and complex to do that without TEL. 91 or maybe 92 is about the highest I've seen in Mogas.
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And the octane scale used for MoGas is different than that for AvGas. 80 octane AvGas is essentially the same blend as the old 87 octane leaded MoGas. I think 100 octane MoGas racing fuel is about 90 octane in AvGas terms but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

We have 93 oct no ethanol premium MoGas available in our area and my 182 loves it mixed about 3/1 with 100LL.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I think the difficulty in creating unleaded Avgas is the need for the high octane number, and it's expensive and complex to do that without TEL. 91 or maybe 92 is about the highest I've seen in Mogas.

Dan
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Up to 8.5 to 1 compression ratio mogas of 92 octsne is all you need. All I run is 92 octane mogas, for the past 10 years and over 1500 hours. :dunno:

There simply is no need for lead in Avgas ( for most piston aircraft) any longer.
 
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I thought one of the goals of 100LL replacement was that it mix into the existing supply with no ill effects.
 
The stress from worrying about minutia will kill you quicker than the actual minutia.
 
timwinters said:
I think 100 octane MoGas racing fuel is about 90 octane in AvGas terms but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

We have 93 oct no ethanol premium MoGas available in our area and my 182 loves it mixed about 3/1 with 100LL.
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It's about a 4 point spread. So 100 mogas would be around 96 rated avgas. The touted "104" octane boost cans would produce about 100 octane avgas, if the mix ratio was correct. (Note; you cannot add a 104 can to a tank full of anything and get 104 octane. Also the RVP suffers significantly so that it would not be suitable for aviation use.)
 
timwinters said:
And the octane scale used for MoGas is different than that for AvGas. 80 octane AvGas is essentially the same blend as the old 87 octane leaded MoGas. I think 100 octane MoGas racing fuel is about 90 octane in AvGas terms but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

We have 93 oct no ethanol premium MoGas available in our area and my 182 loves it mixed about 3/1 with 100LL.
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Your 182 would love straight Mogas even more.
 
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