Russian accident video...

PaulS said:
Ok, so you get to the point of the third picture, left wing begins dropping, you are stalled, what is the proper recovery here? I say stick forward, ailerons neutral and stomp right rudder to bring the left wing up, followed by more power as soon as the wing starts flying again. Correct?
Click to expand...

Yup. Only thing you're missing is to pull the power -- full power can prevent recovery. The mnemonic is PARE -- power (idle), aileron (neutral), rudder (opposite turn), elevator (nose-down).

Unfortunately, if you're 50 feet above the trees, you're going to lose more altitude than that in the recovery.

If you spin THAT low, you're dead. There is nothing you can do about it. That's why you get all the emphasis about spin avoidance in primary training.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, so you get to the point of the third picture, left wing begins dropping, you are stalled, what is the proper recovery here? I say stick forward, ailerons neutral and stomp right rudder to bring the left wing up, followed by more power as soon as the wing starts flying again. Correct?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't wait on the power, the prop wash on the rudder will help you as will P-factor as you are nose down now, power will also accelerate you out of the stall zone for required recovery attitude sooner.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yup. Only thing you're missing is to pull the power -- full power can prevent recovery. The mnemonic is PARE -- power (idle), aileron (neutral), rudder (opposite turn), elevator (nose-down).
Click to expand...

I like to use PARED, with the D standing for dive recovery. Students often try to add power with the nose still pointed at the ground.
 
Here's my take from watching.

Many here already hit the major points...the CFI allowing the heading drift and pulling power as he's approaching the trees. Why he did that we'll never know I guess.

But here's some odd things I saw in addition;

A ) why is the student holding the yolk in his right hand? Eventual he's gonna need to operate the yolk AND the throttle, so wouldn't it make sense to get in the habit of holding the yolk in his left hand to free up his right?

B ) why the hell is the instructor running the throttle in the first place? Very non-standard. It's a very rare time when its a good idea to have two people flying one airplane. You can see several times in the video where the CFI is adding (and reducing) power when the guy flying isn't ready for it. The touchdown is a prime example. Since the CFI goosed it just prior to touchdown I'm betting that's WHY they lost the heading. The poor guy flying has no way to know when the power is coming and correct for it.

Sorry the CFI is dead, but at least he's done flight instructing and that's probably a good thing. (I too would love to see a toxicology report from him...)
 
It appeared they made a choice not to turn back towards the departure area clearing to avoid the terminal building or possibly power lines. The guy in the left seat was barely holding the stick towards the end and let go when the airspeed indicator dropped below the white arc and it stalled. I would bet his legs were shaking on final and froze too. The student was probably hoping someone sober would help him out of his situation. Dang that is sad to watch.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, so you get to the point of the third picture, left wing begins dropping, you are stalled, what is the proper recovery here? I say stick forward, ailerons neutral and stomp right rudder to bring the left wing up, followed by more power as soon as the wing starts flying again. Correct?
Click to expand...

There were 4-5 links in that chain before you get to the point your talking about....doesn't matter what you think is the right recovery...it's over. Not enough altitude to get it done.
 
Captain said:
Here's my take from watching.

Many here already hit the major points...the CFI allowing the heading drift and pulling power as he's approaching the trees. Why he did that we'll never know I guess.

But here's some odd things I saw in addition;

A ) why is the student holding the yolk in his right hand? Eventual he's gonna need to operate the yolk AND the throttle, so wouldn't it make sense to get in the habit of holding the yolk in his left hand to free up his right?

B ) why the hell is the instructor running the throttle in the first place? Very non-standard. It's a very rare time when its a good idea to have two people flying one airplane. You can see several times in the video where the CFI is adding (and reducing) power when the guy flying isn't ready for it. The touchdown is a prime example. Since the CFI goosed it just prior to touchdown I'm betting that's WHY they lost the heading. The poor guy flying has no way to know when the power is coming and correct for it.

Sorry the CFI is dead, but at least he's done flight instructing and that's probably a good thing. (I too would love to see a toxicology report from him...)
Click to expand...

Student operates throttle with his left hand.
Its a weird arrangement with dual throttles. One in the center one in the left hand side of the panel.
 
mtuomi said:
Student operates throttle with his left hand.
Its a weird arrangement with dual throttles. One in the center one in the left hand side of the panel.
Click to expand...

It's not a weird arrangement, until Diamond, it was the standard for side by side planes with a stick.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
There were 4-5 links in that chain before you get to the point your talking about....doesn't matter what you think is the right recovery...it's over. Not enough altitude to get it done.
Click to expand...

You're right about never letting it get that far for the Russians. But you are wrong about it being over. It's never over until you are on the ground. If you give up it will end badly every time.
 
Has anyone considered wind direction? Looks like he turned down wind which adds to the problem trying to climb over the trees?
 
Geico266 said:
Has anyone considered wind direction? Looks like he turned down wind which adds to the problem trying to climb over the trees?
Click to expand...

The flaps down are what killed him, anything else is just more piled on top. Interesting the student lived, trees are quite survivable if you don't get speared or smeared by a limb.
 
FastEddieB said:
Why would that be?
Click to expand...

At tree top level the winds are being slowed and "mixed" (mechanical turbulence) which makes lift more difficult. Turning with the wind (if that is what happened) is going to add to the problem. It certainly is not going to help with lift. Also, there would be an "up draft" at the tree line as the wind is pushed up and over, but over the top of the trees there would be a slight "down draft" or at least a dead area of little or no wind. Think ridge soaring.

I understand wind direction has no theoretical effect on airplanes, but not in this situation. At tree top level trying to climb it is a factor. Obviously, pulling the power is a much larger factor.

More theory to ponder.
 
Last edited:
I would think if there was a tail wind that was suddenly realized at the moment you got above the trees meaning wind calm below the treeline but tail wind above it and you are going to lose some kts
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would think if there was a tail wind that was suddenly realized at the moment you got above the trees meaning wind calm below the treeline but tail wind above it and you are going to lose some kts
Click to expand...

Exactly. :yes:

In this case a few knots were the difference in stalling. :yes:
 
Henning said:
The flaps down are what killed him, anything else is just more piled on top. Interesting the student lived, trees are quite survivable if you don't get speared or smeared by a limb.
Click to expand...

One disadvantage of having that nice 360 degree view through plastic.
 
Henning said:
The flaps down are what killed him, anything else is just more piled on top. Interesting the student lived, trees are quite survivable if you don't get speared or smeared by a limb.
Click to expand...

That, plus speed, and constant turning to the left. Notice the left wing stalled first.

If they would have kept the wings level, dumped the flaps slowly, continued out straight under full power, in clean air this would not have happened.

I know..... Duh! :lol: :rolleyes:


Just a good example of what not to do!
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
At tree top level the winds are being slowed and "mixed" (mechanical turbulence) which makes lift more difficult. Turning with the wind (if that is what happened) is going to add to the problem. It certainly is not going to help with lift. Also, there would be an "up draft" at the tree line as the wind is pushed up and over, but over the top of the trees there would be a slight "down draft" or at least a dead area of little or no wind. Think ridge soaring.

I understand wind direction has no theoretical effect on airplanes, but not in this situation. At tree top level trying to climb it is a factor. Obviously, pulling the power is a much larger factor.

More theory to ponder.
Click to expand...

Got it.

I'm always alert for "Stick and Rudder" moments and thought this might be one.

Apparently not.

But "It certainly is not going to help with lift" still leads in that direction. A downwind turn still has no effect on lift by itself. Shear and turbulence will, regardless of wind direction.

But I think you know that.
 
Last edited:
FastEddieB said:
Got it.

I'm always alert for "Stick and Rudder" moments and thought this might be one.

Apparently not.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I am speaking from experience. :rolleyes2:

No, I didn't crash, but I needed to clean my shorts and leaves off the wheel pants. :rolleyes2: :yes:
 
Geico266 said:
Unfortunately, I am speaking from experience. :rolleyes2:

No, I didn't crash, but I needed to clean my shorts and leaves off the wheel pants. :rolleyes2: :yes:
Click to expand...

Yep!

While the wind by itself should not affect airspeed or rate of climb, it certainly affects climb angle - and that's what can put you in the trees sooner than you figured!
 
Geico266 said:
That, plus speed, and constant turning to the left. Notice the left wing stalled first.

If they would have kept the wings level, dumped the flaps slowly, continued out straight under full power, in clean air this would not have happened.

I know..... Duh! :lol: :rolleyes:


Just a good example of what not to do!
Click to expand...

He had the turn stopped and was climbing a bit, not seeing the trees, thinking he had climbed higher than he climbed because he forgot to retract the flaps, pulled the throttle as he pushed the nose down and turned downwind as normal, saw the trees, hit the throttle and pulled up stalling the low wing first with prop factors winding in skidding force, at that point it was over. Had he remembered to suck up the flaps when he took control, he would have been at the altitude expected when he reduced throttle for the turn down wind. Even though he was in VMC, he was physically IMC when he was trying to climb because he didn't have a visual horizon, just a dull, flat, Russian overcast, he never looked at an instrument in that time, just a blank sky. This is what happens in all VFR into IMC accidents.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
He had the turn stopped and was climbing a bit, not seeing the trees, thinking he had climbed higher than he climbed because he forgot to retract the flaps, pulled the throttle as he pushed the nose down and turned downwind as normal, saw the trees, hit the throttle and pulled up stalling the low wing first with prop factors winding in skidding force, at that point it was over. Had he remembered to suck up the flaps when he took control, he would have been at the altitude expected when he reduced throttle for the turn down wind. Even though he was in VMC, he was physically IMC when he was trying to climb because he didn't have a visual horizon, just a dull, flat, Russian overcast.
Click to expand...

Meh....

Who begins their downwind turn at 100 feet AGL? :dunno:
 
Last edited:
SixPapaCharlie said:
Meh....

Who begins their downwind turn at 100 feet AGL? :dunno:
Click to expand...

If he hadn't had the flaps in, he would have been at 400' in that time span, that's the point, he didn't know what altitude he was at because he had no visual reference until he put the nose down, and he never looked at the altimeter or ASI. All he had to go on was "I've been climbing at typical pitch for a typical period of time, I should be near a typical given altitude."
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
If he hadn't had the flaps in, he would have been at 400' in that time span, that's the point, he didn't know what altitude he was at because he had no visual reference until he put the nose down, and he never looked at the altimeter or ASI. All he had to go on was "I've been climbing at typical pitch for a typical period of time, I should be near a typical given altitude."
Click to expand...

I agree with Henning....

Leaving the flaps down did these guys in....The plane itself is underpowered,, go around with full flaps is like dragging an anchor...
 
N801BH said:
I agree with Henning....

Leaving the flaps down did these guys in....The plane itself is underpowered,, go around with full flaps is like dragging an anchor...
Click to expand...

The student in the left survived, shows you karma has some justice since the CFI screwed up what would have otherwise been a successful landing by the student.
 
Henning said:
If he hadn't had the flaps in, he would have been at 400' in that time span, that's the point, he didn't know what altitude he was at because he had no visual reference until he put the nose down, and he never looked at the altimeter or ASI. All he had to go on was "I've been climbing at typical pitch for a typical period of time, I should be near a typical given altitude."
Click to expand...

:yes: Flaps are drag.

The Rotax engine is designed to run wide open 5800 rpm for 8 mins, then 5500 for redline all day long. They LOVE to be run hard, they really do! Why he pulled power is simply inexcusable. It cost him his life. :rolleyes2:

Maintain directional control, maintain airspeed, clean up airframe.


Excellent and sobering training video!!!!
 
Last edited:
Whoever says flaps killed them obviously haven't flown the LSA Eurostar.
Even with full flaps, that thing climbs like a homesick angel. That is NOT what caused this accident.
 
If they were doing T&Gs, it would be interesting to watch the previous landing
 
mtuomi said:
Whoever says flaps killed them obviously haven't flown the LSA Eurostar.
Even with full flaps, that thing climbs like a homesick angel. That is NOT what caused this accident.
Click to expand...

If it climbs like a "homesick angel" .. They would not have hit the trees..:no:
 
Last edited:
I'm not buying mechanical turbulance causing a tail wind at tree tops level. The speed reduction was a result of one guy pulling power back while another guy was holding pitch attitude.

Again, it's a VERY RARE situation where it'd be appropriate for two people to fly the same plane.
 
Captain said:
I'm not buying mechanical turbulance causing a tail wind at tree tops level. The speed reduction was a result of one guy pulling power back while another guy was holding pitch attitude.

Again, it's a VERY RARE situation where it'd be appropriate for two people to fly the same plane.
Click to expand...


I didn't say mechanical turbulence caused the accident, but I think it is safe to say it was a factor in this incident. ;)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top