Russian accident video...

Assuming the instructor is on the right, it sure looks like he doomed them with a failure to take over controls and extremely poor throttle management. He gives it full power soon after touchdown, fails to take over the controls, allows the student to head for the trees, and then, if I'm seeing it correctly, actually lets off the throttle as they're nearing the trees, finally going full throttle again as they skim the treetops. What the heck?
 
BG305 said:
So why was he banking so hard?
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As best I can tell from what looks to be the neutral stick position (by comparing its position earlier in the video), just prior to the crash the left seat pilot appears to be putting in slight right stick while the plane slowly banks left. Not sure what their rudder inputs were.
 
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Looks like someone forgot to clean up the flaps. I'm trying to figure out what the instructor was trying to do. :dunno:
 
Why in the hell would the instructor, who's working the throttle, pull back from WOT as they're attempting to climb over the trees? Sheesh.
 
Jim Logajan said:
As best I can tell from what looks to be the neutral stick position (by comparing its position earlier in the video), just prior to the crash the left seat pilot appears to be putting in slight right stick while the plane slowly banks left. Not sure what their rudder inputs were.
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+1.


Pulling back on the throttle and not maintaining directional control with the runway is a hell of a way to teach a student a go around. :no:

Vodka!
 
Instructor won't be teaching again, he was killed.
 
asechrest said:
Why in the hell would the instructor, who's working the throttle, pull back from WOT as they're attempting to climb over the trees? Sheesh.
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That right there is it, pulls back on the throttle, realizes it's a mistake, goes WOT again and then probably stalled it trying to horse up over the trees.
 
From the start of the video nothing was being done correctly. Sorry the CFI lost his life but its really his own fault this happened.
 
If you look again you will see the guy on the right put in the throttle for the go around and shortly after pull it back, then as the plane is rolling left put the power back in.
Plane was fine. It was a loose nut on the yoke.
 
Looks like the student abandoned controls toward the end. As mentioned, I don't know what the rudder inputs were but it didn't look like stick was ever positioned past center enough to induce a steep left turn.
 
Why did he pull the throttle? Only thought I have is 'Simulated Engine Failure on Take Off". :dunno:
 
Some poor schmo put this up on the Purpleboard, and a bunch of folks bitched at him because the one guy died.

I myself can't make heads nor tails of it. I can't imagine a little Rotax making enough P-factor to force an airplane into the trees. To be honest, the Russian and vodka thoughts make more sense than just about anything else. Who flies into trees when they're topping above your windshield? Makes no sense at all.
 
Tfitch, -Stall induced your steep turn, they had entered a shallow (left) bank and that was enough for that wing to let go (stop flying). Sad. Sheesh. Mush, mush, mush, mush... Throttle, elevator, mush, settle, stall. Looks like they rode the edge for a long time in this vid.
 
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Scary.

The throttling back seems very, very counterintuitive.

I've been in that same situation numerous times as an instructor, and my reflex is full power, whatever right rudder it takes as the nose is aggressively lowered - even if ground contact is inevitable.

Several Cirrus's have come to grief in smoking holes to the left of the runway after botched go-arounds. I was the only thing that prevented one in an SR22 at Copperhill, TN. When surprised, pilots will often try to "steer" away from the left yaw with aileron, and are reluctant to lower the nose and stomp the rudder. Natural reflexes are all wrong when things go south like this.
 
Sad and scary, it was 100% preventable looking.

There appear to be lots of problems leading up to the wing drop that everyone else has mentioned so for.

In addition, it looks to me like the right seat pilot (instructor I believe), pulled the stick quite far back as the aircraft rolls through roughly 85 degrees of bank. I can't imagine the instructor had a very good understanding of the concept of AoA.
 
BG305 said:
So why was he banking so hard?
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Is it just me or does the rigging look reversed?

Stick goes right, plane goes left. Then, it reverses a few seconds later. I suppose the PF could have been crossing the controls, but that would require a very effective rudder.
 
If he was at high enough of an AoA, the controls wouldn't need to be crossed. If there is minimal or no washout on the wings, and the airplane was stalled in a slight left turn, the right aileron will roll the aircraft more left, not right. In this situation, it doesn't appear to me that they did much at all with the rudder.

That is why you are supposed to use the rudder to pick up a wing drop when during a stall, not the aileron. Aileron use in a stall causes a difference in lift and drag between the wings, causing one wing to drop.
 
acropilot said:
I can't imagine the instructor had a very good understanding of the concept of AoA.
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I'll bet he did.

I'm sure he had to pass written tests to confirm that understanding.

But...

Warren Zevon sang, "You're a whole 'nother person when you're scared."

I think, at the end as the nose begins it's downward path to the ground, there's almost a lizard-brain reflex arc to pull the stick away from the ground - one that may short-circuit rational thought entirely.

Panels from Stick and Rudder to follow later.
 
FastEddieB said:
I'll bet he did.

I'm sure he had to pass written tests to confirm that understanding.

But...

Warren Zevon sang, "You're a whole 'nother person when you're scared."

I think, at the end as the nose begins it's downward path to the ground, there's almost a lizard-brain reflex arc to pull the stick away from the ground - one that may short-circuit rational thought entirely.

Panels from Stick and Rudder to follow later.
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My CFI gave me "the talk" just before I went out on my solo XC. "If it all goes wrong, fly it all the way to the ground!"

edit : Regarding S&R - I can't remember the exact words, but he did say something like, "No matter how hard it is to do, not matter how much your brain is telling you not to to it, get that nose down!"
 
God bless the accident pilots; and God bless the people who can watch that kind of video so others can learn from their mistakes.
 
Everybody's talking about the throttle here, but it looked to me like the instructor grabbed the throttle and stick right after touchdown, aborting the landing, then either actively turned the airplane toward the trees, or allowing the student to fly directly toward the trees at very low altitude, and airspeed. Either way, why in the hell would he do that? They both had their hand on the stick until the final moment just before the instructor yanks the stick in his lap and they go in. Nothing here makes any sense. Drunk/dumbass instructor wanting to have a little treetop fun or something?
 
Full screen, then watch the airspeed indicator to see the speed decay until the left wing drops out from under them, as they try to pick it back up with the aileron.
 
The student flared high and was about to drop it in. Instructor responded with throttle. Bounced on the mains and then the P factor took them left. Not enough rudder.

They recovered and began a slow bank back to the right. I think due to the nose up pitch and the right bank, the treeline to the left was under the nose and the instructor couldn't see how close he was. Not sure why he reduced throttle, but he did.

He sees the treeline and firewalls it, pitches up. Starts banking left again (needs rudder). It looks like he had a chance at clearing the trees or just clipping tops, but kept the nose too high and didn't put in enough rudder. A few seconds later stall/spun right above the trees.
 
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Here's that spin sequence from Stick and Rudder:

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I would venture to say that virtually pilot that ever spun like that would have said, prior to the incident, that that would never happen to them. Pride goeth before a fall and all that.

But like #3 says, "The most powerful impulse in all of flying is to jerk the stick to the right rear corner in an attempt to lift the low wing and the nose at the same time." That's what I think can end up being a reflex that overpowers conscious thought.
 
FastEddieB said:
Here's that spin sequence from Stick and Rudder:

I would venture to say that virtually pilot that ever spun like that would have said, prior to the incident, that that would never happen to them. Pride goeth before a fall and all that.

But like #3 says, "The most powerful impulse in all of flying is to jerk the stick to the right rear corner in an attempt to lift the low wing and the nose at the same time." That's what I think can end up being a reflex that overpowers conscious thought.
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Yep, that's why I feel a 10hr aerobatics course is in everybody's best interest. One get a muscle memory introduction to unloading and low energy maneuvering.
 
That S&R sequence pretty much shows, frame by frame, the same thing the video does. We haven't discovered too many new ways to kill ourselves over the years.
 
dell30rb said:
The student flared high and was about to drop it in. Instructor responded with throttle. Bounced on the mains and then the P factor took them left. Not enough rudder.

They recovered and began a slow bank back to the right. I think due to the nose up pitch and the right bank, the treeline to the left was under the nose and the instructor couldn't see how close he was. Not sure why he reduced throttle, but he did.

He sees the treeline and firewalls it, pitches up. Starts banking left again (needs rudder). It looks like he had a chance at clearing the trees or just clipping tops, but kept the nose too high and didn't put in enough rudder. A few seconds later stall/spun right above the trees.
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No way the miniscule amount of "P-factor" generated by a Rotax 912 on this airplane would cause a turn like that. The left turn was caused by left aileron being applied as the airplane touched the ground, and was then powered up, and went flying again. You can see the control inputs in the video. P-factor doesn't cause left roll like this. They pretty much started a banked turn as they aborted the takeoff. Bank angle was about 20 degrees and the left turn would have been obvious to the instructor.

I still cannot understand the instructor allowing this turn to go uncorrected, and flight continuing toward the trees - even if he did not have the best view of the trees. What instructor conducts training at an airport with no understanding or thoughts about the surroundings? And the student couldn't have dropped it in from more than a foot. The airplane was already down. No need to abort. There is no exuse or logic behind anything that happened here. Just totally inexplicable.
 
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I translated all the comments on youtube to English (there is a button for that)
they don't translate well but you get the sense that there are some that are familiar with this guy and he or his operation (and aircraft) might be questionable.
 
RoscoeT said:
No way the miniscule amount of "P-factor" generated by a Rotax 912 on this airplane would cause a turn like that.
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Bear in mind that 100hp in a very light plane can be comparable to 300+ hp in a heavier plane like a Cirrus.

My 912 is in pusher configuration and has very little p-factor. Maybe others with more conventional installs can speak to this?
 
FastEddieB said:
Bear in mind that 100hp in a very light plane can be comparable to 300+ hp in a heavier plane like a Cirrus.

My 912 is in pusher configuration and has very little p-factor. Maybe others with more conventional installs can speak to this?
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But to get "out of control" P-factor on a Cirrus would take 750hp, just like this plane would require 250.
 
FastEddieB said:
Bear in mind that 100hp in a very light plane can be comparable to 300+ hp in a heavier plane like a Cirrus.
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Maybe, but P-factor causes yaw, not roll and a turn like this. The left turn in the video was caused by left aileron, clearly visible. And there is still very little p-factor on the small diameter, high PRM prop of the Rotax, even if it has decent power-to-weight ratio on this airplane.
 
I know Russian helicopter blades turn the opposite from western helicopters.

Do Russian airplane engines turn reverse from the west?


EDIT: Looks like not.

stock-photo-front-centre-view-of-crashed-russian-antonov-an-plane-in-the-peruvian-amazon-nicknamed-annushka-92648014.jpg
 
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Crazy.. Like the guy didn't even see the trees.

Seeing how fast it dropped down makes me wonder about one of my approaches recently. I was landing in very gusty conditions and had been maintaining +15 KIAS on a straight in IAP to counter the gusts when all of a sudden on short final my right wing dropped suddenly.

Now, In my limited experience I have experienced rolling forces from mountains and even wake turbulence. This was very different. like the wing just lost lift. No stall warning either. I did note a roughly 20 KIAS sudden change.

I did in fact counter with nose down, power in and "Left" aileron which seems to go against what you guys are discussing for fixing a wing drop. Was scary but did resolve it in my case. I was < 100' above the trees.
 
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