Runway etiquette

[Shawn]

So unless your flying big iron when there is no way to get around the guy in front of you, your flight strip gets moved in the order that you called up ready for take off.

Not always when you are mixing VFR and IFR departures...I have been moved many a times off the #1 holding short line position to make way for other departures. I have learned when there are others in the departure area to move into a position where I am ready to roll but not block the taxiway to the runway should I be told to hold short for other departures.

...of course places like FUL or any other field where the runup is not immediately adjacent to the departure end or outside a defined movement area...another call up is always warranted.

 

[Timbeck2]

Exceptions to every rule. Note: I never used the word "always."

 

[Everskyward]

Exceptions to every rule. Note: I never used the word "always."

Yup, as others have noted, different airports use different procedures, some of which are tribal knowledge and not always readily apparent. Don't be afraid to ask. If they snap at you, oh well.

 

[Timbeck2]

I will say that all United States based controllers are well aware of duty and operational priorities. Sometimes it doesn't work out as read in the .65. For example, if a little guy is at an intersection and is told to hold short because of a large departure from the full length of the runway and the little guy calls up right after the large is cleared for take off; Meanwhile another large at the full length calls up after the little guy, the controller has to make a decision. The little guy has to wait three minutes for wake turbulence anyway, I could clear the second large and add a couple more minutes to the little guy's wait time*, or I could put the little guy on to hold for WT and delay the second large aircraft. Which works best? These type decisions are made several times a day every day.

* meaning I can clear the second large and only add the time it takes for the second large to take off then re-start the three minute clock.

 

[deyoung]

FWIW, I don't call tower until I'm ready to go, and I pull to the right side of the taxiway (which is wide) ahead of the hold short line to do my runup, so there is plenty of room for anything smaller than a CRJ to go around me if they're ready first. That said, I almost never have anyone behind me anyway (the commercial traffic uses a different entrance to the runway) so it's mostly academic.

 

[Larry in TN]

Follow the recommendations in the AIM unless superseded by NOTAM, ATIS, or instructions from the Ground controller.

If the controller has made up his own personal procedure and hasn't told you about it (see above) then that's his problem, not yours. It is not our responsibility to know/remember each facility's local procedures if they haven't been properly published.

 

[abqtj]

Still early in training (8 hours)...

But at KABQ we call clearance while at the hangar area to request our departure needs. Then, when ready, we taxi out to the end of the hangars to where we can see the tower, and they can see us. They (ground) give taxi instructions, then we taxi to wherever they tell us, do our run up in the appropriate spot, then get to the hold short and notify ground where we are. They send us on our way when it's clear.

 

[Palmpilot]

At my home field (PAO), the markings in the runup area for the most commonly used end of the runway result in three short lines of planes, so if you pulled forward as soon as you switched to the tower frequency, you might unknowingly cut into the previously-announced sequence. Consequently, the custom here is to wait until you hear an instruction to taxi up to and hold short of the runway, line up and wait, or take off.

 

[mscard88]

Follow the recommendations in the AIM unless superseded by NOTAM, ATIS, or instructions from the Ground controller.

If the controller has made up his own personal procedure and hasn't told you about it (see above) then that's his problem, not yours. It is not our responsibility to know/remember each facility's local procedures if they haven't been properly published.

As a controller (ret) a controller does not make up their own procedure. It's usually airport operations with input from ATC and others on the airport, such as the FBO, flight school, corporate area etc. Regardless, there will be taxi procedures info on the ATIS (if one) and one should comply unless otherwise advised by ATC. Also GC will give you instructions if they want something else other than the ordinary.

As always, ask if you're confused or unsure. Doesn't cost anything.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Regardless, there will be taxi procedures info on the ATIS (if one) and one should comply unless otherwise advised by ATC. Also GC will give you instructions if they want something else other than the ordinary....

Not always. In twenty-five years, I've never heard the runup area procedure at PAO addressed on either the ATIS or in ground controller instructions.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Avoid the whole conga line waiting for the runway by making a last minute swerve onto an intersecting taxiway;
"Tower, NFAST1 ready for immediate t-o, number one, rwy 20 intersection Mike!"
(If they give you a hard time, tell them you will have to declare a fuel emergency and need to avoid any delay!)

 

[denverpilot]

At your home towered airport, do you pull up to the runway hold-short line and then call the tower, or call the tower in your run-up spot before moving to the hold short line? It seems to vary by airport. I'm used to doing the former at Chino.

"Centennial Airport special procedures in effect, all VFR aircraft provide the ground controller with direction of flight, advise the controller if run up is complete, all aircraft, contact ground for sequence, then move to the hold line in assigned sequence. Advise the controller on initial contact, you have, Alpha."

 

[danhagan]

* meaning I can clear the second large and only add the time it takes for the second large to take off then re-start the three minute clock.

Do you actually have a timer for wake turbulence or are you guys guesstimating? Reason I ask is I usually hit my timer as well, but wouldn't if I knew an actual timer is being used.

 

[eetrojan]

Did this happen to you at SMO? If so, the Run-up area there is in the non-movement area. Because you exit the movement area for your run-up, you're required to receive an additional clearance from the run-up to the runway hold-short line. This may be the case at other so-cal airports, too; or maybe controllers are just being particularly snarky.

Ahhh. Thanks for your comment re KSMO. I didn't understand that important nuance until you mentioned it.

On the Google Earth capture below, the south runup is outside of the movement area, but what about the north runup? The markings are not at all clear to me up there.

 

[luvflyin]

Avoid the whole conga line waiting for the runway by making a last minute swerve onto an intersecting taxiway;
"Tower, NFAST1 ready for immediate t-o, number one, rwy 20 intersection Mike!"
(If they give you a hard time, tell them you will have to declare a fuel emergency and need to avoid any delay!)

LOL. They can certainly solve the problem of emergency fuel by simply not letting you in the air.

 

[luvflyin]

Ahhh. Thanks for your comment re KSMO. I didn't understand that important nuance until you mentioned it.

On the Google Earth capture below, the south runup is outside of the movement area, but what about the north runup? The markings are not at all clear to me up there.

Yeah. They need a few more feet of dashed yellow line separating the movement area from the non movement area to make it complete. Look closely, you can do an "end run" around it on the South side to. Pretty easy to see the intent though. Maybe they ran short of paint and didn't want crack open a whole new can to finish it, lol.

 

[luvflyin]

"Centennial Airport special procedures in effect, all VFR aircraft provide the ground controller with direction of flight, advise the controller if run up is complete, all aircraft, contact ground for sequence, then move to the hold line in assigned sequence. Advise the controller on initial contact, you have, Alpha."

I'm sure there are probably many more that that lay it all out in the ATIS. I'm sure I've heard it before, just can't remember where.

 

[coloradobluesky]

It's best to line up in a way that someone behind you that is ready to go can pass you and move onto the runway. Its obvious to line up behind someone who was there first. But if you are ready to go and he isn't, there should be a smooth way to pass him and go. Uncontrolled airport I suggest "Aircraft so and so , this is the white Husky behind you. Im ready to go if you don't mind" or something like that. If someone asks you to pass because he is ready to go, obviously the thing to do is to say something like "Sure go ahead". Unless you are ready, then say, "Im ready to go now thanks for waiting" and move onto the runway. It's not rocket science.

 

[luvflyin]

I will say that all United States based controllers are well aware of duty and operational priorities. Sometimes it doesn't work out as read in the .65. For example, if a little guy is at an intersection and is told to hold short because of a large departure from the full length of the runway and the little guy calls up right after the large is cleared for take off; Meanwhile another large at the full length calls up after the little guy, the controller has to make a decision. The little guy has to wait three minutes for wake turbulence anyway, I could clear the second large and add a couple more minutes to the little guy's wait time*, or I could put the little guy on to hold for WT and delay the second large aircraft. Which works best? These type decisions are made several times a day every day.

* meaning I can clear the second large and only add the time it takes for the second large to take off then re-start the three minute clock.

Yup. Something to add to that. The 3 minute rule mentioned can be waived, and thats exactly how you say it, "I'll waive the 3 minute rule." It also applys concerning landing traffic. The controller must apply it if the other trafiic is landing as well as taking off. A few years ago I was flying out of PSP a lot. There was an intersection there that was located just right to do this. It was a little after where the big boy's nose wheels usually hit the pavement. Thats when the wing quits producing wake. I'd call ready for an immediate and waive the 3 minute rule.

 

[luvflyin]

Depends...

Most towered airports- go ahead and pull up.

I have been to at least 1 towered airport (MMU comes to mind) will ground will give you the instructions "Taxi to Rwy XX run up area, contact tower when ready for departure". In that case they want to hear from you before you move out of the runup area

Yeah. HIO started doing that a couple years ago. They don't taxi you "to runway ##," they taxi you "to the runup area." If you move out of it without clearance, your busted.

 

[GrahamC]

Ahhh. Thanks for your comment re KSMO. I didn't understand that important nuance until you mentioned it.

On the Google Earth capture below, the south runup is outside of the movement area, but what about the north runup? The markings are not at all clear to me up there.

The North run-up is in the movement area, therefore no additional call is required. Keep in mind, however, at SMO if you're holding short of 21 on the north side, Tower will likely get a little upset if they have an IFR release for any of the Jet traffic out of Atlantic FBO and you're blocking the runway. It's still best practice as a courtesy to wait in the North run-up until you receive your takeoff clearance, leaving room for IFR Jet traffic to depart ahead of you.

 

[mscard88]

Do you actually have a timer for wake turbulence or are you guys guesstimating? Reason I ask is I usually hit my timer as well, but wouldn't if I knew an actual timer is being used.

More or less, I never saw a timer in all the towers I worked. Just used the clock on the console which had the seconds showing as well. Sometimes it's a mileage (DME) separation and the controller will look up at the radar display (not all towers have) to watch the preceding departure to fly the required distance. If you're holding short a controller may clear you to go figuring it'll be 10-20 seconds before you roll. It's what is called "anticipating separation" in the ATC handbook.

 

[Everskyward]

The North run-up is in the movement area, therefore no additional call is required. Keep in mind, however, at SMO if you're holding short of 21 on the north side, Tower will likely get a little upset if they have an IFR release for any of the Jet traffic out of Atlantic FBO and you're blocking the runway. It's still best practice as a courtesy to wait in the North run-up until you receive your takeoff clearance, leaving room for IFR Jet traffic to depart ahead of you.

That dotted line on the taxiway on the north side is where IFR traffic is supposed to hold until they get their release.

 

[Timbeck2]

Do you actually have a timer for wake turbulence or are you guys guesstimating? Reason I ask is I usually hit my timer as well, but wouldn't if I knew an actual timer is being used.

We have a clock which is in full view of the whole tower crew, in fact it is required to be. It is checked at the beginning of each shift and adjusted if needed to be on the same second as the US Naval Observatory (yes we have the number to that as well) so although we don't have a stop watch, the exact time the previous aircraft took off is noted and called to the appropriate facility. That time is the basis on where the wake turbulence wait time begins. Our recorders also have a timer (because everything is recorded) and if something were to happen if a controller cleared someone for take of without the required wait time (or waived and I'll get to that in a minute in response to another poster) then the controller would be found at fault. I said something about this when I first joined this forum that most everything controllers say and how and when they say is as a result of some sort of mishap and is written by lawyers or as a result of counsel of same.

To the poster who said it can be waived, yes in this instance the wait time for wake turbulence can be waived by the pilot but not solicited by a controller. Pilots waive the wake turbulence, not the "three minute rule" as was stated. Controllers will ask for verification of that and will not (or shouldn't) clear an aircraft for take off if someone simply says, "I waive the three minute rule." Even if pilots waive the remainder of the time, controllers will still say "caution wake turbulence (aircraft departed) cleared for take off."

 

[denverpilot]

We have a clock which is in full view of the whole tower crew, in fact it is required to be. It is checked at the beginning of each shift and adjusted if needed to be on the same second as the US Naval Observatory (yes we have the number to that as well) so although we don't have a stop watch, the exact time the previous aircraft took off is noted and called to the appropriate facility.

Tangent:

I'm amazed they haven't just installed a clock that sets itself to WWV/WWVB automatically. I hate buying clocks anymore that don't.

Which number y'all use?

+1 202 762-1401
+1 202 762-1069
+1 719 567-6742

I'm kinda a WWV snob myself...

+1 303 499 7111
+1 808 335-4363

Their Boulder number is a little easier to memorize than any of the USNO numbers or their Hawaii number, with the repetitive digits.

 

[luvflyin]

...............To the poster who said it can be waived, yes in this instance the wait time for wake turbulence can be waived by the pilot but not solicited by a controller. Pilots waive the wake turbulence, not the "three minute rule" as was stated. Controllers will ask for verification of that and will not (or shouldn't) clear an aircraft for take off if someone simply says, "I waive the three minute rule." Even if pilots waive the remainder of the time, controllers will still say "caution wake turbulence (aircraft departed) cleared for take off."

From AIM 4-3-10 f. (current)
.......If after considering wake turbulence, the pilot feels that a lesser time interval is appropriate, the pilot may request a waiver to the 3 minute interval. To initiate such a request, simply say "Request waiver to 3-minute interval" or a similar statement.

From 710.65V 3-9-7 b. (not current)
NOTE−
A request for takeoff does not initiate a waiver request; the
request for takeoff must be accomplished by a request to
deviate from the 3−minute interval.

From 710.65W 3-9-7 b. (current, maybe X is current now)
NOTE−
A request for takeoff does not initiate a waiver request; the
request for takeoff must be accomplished by a request to
deviate from the time interval.

Maybe a later 7110 has changed things. The X version is probably out now. Between the V and W the only thing changed was it said "time" instead of "3-minute." Either way it is a time that is being waived and the AIM is still advertising to pilots to waive the 3-minute interval.

 

[Caramon13]

Let's not forget that there are also ILS hold position lines that are used.

Sarasota has those for example and when the tower is closed you are to use those instead of the other hold short lines, in ALL WX conditions.



When in doubt, read the AFD (now called Chart Supplements) for the airport you are flying into/out of.

 

[Radar Contact]

Tangent:

I'm amazed they haven't just installed a clock that sets itself to WWV/WWVB automatically. I hate buying clocks anymore that don't.

Depends on the facility. At my current and last facility, they are automatic.

 

[abqtj]

Tangent:

I'm amazed they haven't just installed a clock that sets itself to WWV/WWVB automatically. I hate buying clocks anymore that don't.

When was World War Five? And more importantly, there was a part B to it too?!?!

 

[ChemGuy]

That's what full length taxi ways are for. If some latte sipping cirrus driver is waitin for HAL to finish his systems check and clear the pilot to push the fly button, just announce departing on the taxi way and firewall the black lever.

 

[Larry in TN]

As a controller (ret) a controller does not make up their own procedure. It's usually airport operations with input from ATC and others on the airport, such as the FBO, flight school, corporate area etc.

That is the way it is suppose to work but, in practice, there are some non-published deviations from facility to facility.

 

[GrahamC]

That dotted line on the taxiway on the north side is where IFR traffic is supposed to hold until they get their release.

Correct. That is why it's important for VFR traffic not to block the entrance to the runway on the north side. It may look clear and open, even though ATC plans to depart jet traffic in a very short window.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Do you actually have a timer for wake turbulence or are you guys guesstimating? Reason I ask is I usually hit my timer as well, but wouldn't if I knew an actual timer is being used.

It doesn't matter if they are using one. It's your butt and your responsibility to be safe. I've declined departure clearances before because there wasn't enough time after a heavy departure.

 

[paflyer]

But then again. are we taking off or are we departing?

Isn't departing another way to say "coming from together"?

 

[paflyer]

Well probably both right? Say it however you desire. When I did ATC it didn't matter to me. Ready for "takeoff", ready to depart", ready to "blast off", etc etc I knew what you wanted to do.

LOL, I think I'm going to start saying "blast-off" in the BugSmasher2000.

 

[mscard88]

LOL, I think I'm going to start saying "blast-off" in the BugSmasher2000.

"Bugsmasher 2000 cleared for blastoff, frequency change approved"

 

[danhagan]

It doesn't matter if they are using one. It's your butt and your responsibility to be safe. I've declined departure clearances before because there wasn't enough time after a heavy departure.

I use it every time there's a wake turbulence possibility. I thought the tower guys may be "guesstimating" the three minutes, whereas I was looking at my on board timer. Either way, I have always been held a little past 3 minutes.

I picked up my Tiger a couple of weeks ago on a high wind day and was departing right near the big push time for SWA. I received the 3 minute wait and then waited another 10 ... they departed an AC, then landed one immediately after ... they were giving out wind shear warnings non-stop. The landing AA flight must have hit pretty hard as they told me at 3 minutes that it'd be another 5-10 for a runway inspection after that last landing. Must've been a teeth rattler, as the inspection truck actually stopped and retrieved something out of the TDZ.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I use it every time there's a wake turbulence possibility. I thought the tower guys may be "guesstimating" the three minutes, whereas I was looking at my on board timer. Either way, I have always been held a little past 3 minutes.

I picked up my Tiger a couple of weeks ago on a high wind day and was departing right near the big push time for SWA. I received the 3 minute wait and then waited another 10 ... they departed an AC, then landed one immediately after ... they were giving out wind shear warnings non-stop. The landing AA flight must have hit pretty hard as they told me at 3 minutes that it'd be another 5-10 for a runway inspection after that last landing. Must've been a teeth rattler, as the inspection truck actually stopped and retrieved something out of the TDZ.

Fun times

 

[eetrojan]

Yup. Something to add to that. The 3 minute rule mentioned can be waived, and thats exactly how you say it, "I'll waive the 3 minute rule." It also applys concerning landing traffic. The controller must apply it if the other trafiic is landing as well as taking off. A few years ago I was flying out of PSP a lot. There was an intersection there that was located just right to do this. It was a little after where the big boy's nose wheels usually hit the pavement. Thats when the wing quits producing wake. I'd call ready for an immediate and waive the 3 minute rule.

I notice in AIM 4-3-10(g), the 3-minute interval isn't required if the small plane's intersection is within 500 feet or less of the large aircraft's departure point.

Is it true then that a small plane can always depart full length without delay?

 

[mscard88]

I notice in AIM 4-3-10(g), the 3-minute interval isn't required if the small plane's intersection is within 500 feet or less of the large aircraft's departure point.

Is it true then that a small plane can always depart full length without delay?

Been out of it since '88 but yes, if you initiate waiving the wake turbulence. Intersection I don't think you can waiver it.