Runup every time?

[flyingcheesehead]

OBTW, I forgot to mention one thing...

*NO* runup on a gravel field, unless on the takeoff roll!

 

[mikea]

OBTW, I forgot to mention one thing...

*NO* runup on a gravel field, unless on the takeoff roll!

How about an asphalt (now!) taxiway with gravel on it, aka my home?

After finding a huge divot in the prop early on I learned to stop short of any piles of rocks.

 

[Neal Howard]

You missed one. "What's a run-up?"

I heard an old-timer once proclaim "Do your mag checks after you've reached 100' AGL... that way you'll keep the gravel from dinging up your prop"

 

[sba55]

I heard an old-timer once proclaim "Do your mag checks after you've reached 100' AGL... that way you'll keep the gravel from dinging up your prop"

In a sense, he's right, though. The RPM at which you do a mag check is pretty much irrelevant. I do my mag checks (and at these power and mixture settings, that's all they are - checking that both mags work and that there aren't any horrendously fouled plugs) at idle sometime during taxi. I know that there won't be any roughness due to fouling unless something is seriously wrong with the engine, so I just normalize the EGTs and make sure all of them increase. Exercising the prop is optional. With most of our engines, by the time you get to your runup, the prop oil will have been replaced with warm oil anyways. No dinging the prop that way, either.

-Felix

 

[citationxjl]

In piston engines...every takeoff. With the PT-6 in the caravan...First flight of the day

 

[Nav8tor]

I voted "every takeoff" but then after reading some of the posts I realized that's not entirely true. I'll do a runup every time after an engine start or if I just taxi in and drop someone off, even if I don't stop the engine. But if I'm doing pattern work with stop and gos or full stops with a taxit back to the end of the runway I don't normally do a run up unless I have to wait a long time on the ground to take off again.

 

[brcase]

<snip>

I do not ever, under any circumstance, do touch & gos in a complex aircraft. Time permitting and long runway, stop and go maybe, but no TGL. Ever.

So at what point to you consider a Go-Around not an option?

The procedure for a Go-around should be almost identical to a touch and go procedure. And just because you are rolling doesn't mean that a go-around may not be in order.

By doing touch and go's you are actually just practicing your go-around proceedures and this is even more important to be profiecent in, in complex aircraft.

I do encourage full stops early on in private and complex training as it takes some time for all the proceedures to sink in but as you get more experience touch and goes are great practice for Go-Arounds.

Brian

 

[dmccormack]

So at what point to you consider a Go-Around not an option?

The procedure for a Go-around should be almost identical to a touch and go procedure. And just because you are rolling doesn't mean that a go-around may not be in order.

By doing touch and go's you are actually just practicing your go-around proceedures and this is even more important to be profiecent in, in complex aircraft.

I do encourage full stops early on in private and complex training as it takes some time for all the proceedures to sink in but as you get more experience touch and goes are great practice for Go-Arounds.

Brian

This is one of those religious war items, but I'm on the "no touch and go in retracts" because I can't afford the gear-up landing repair bill.

 

[Ted]

This is one of those religious war items, but I'm on the "no touch and go in retracts" because I can't afford the gear-up landing repair bill.

So how do you train in a complex aircraft and get them familiar with the procedures? I'm not saying your method is wrong, I'd just like to know what it is.

I finished my 5 hour checkout in the Mooney yesterday. I know that I need to do more practice at managing my approach, etc. with it. At this point I will do it by just flying places and learning as I do my actual flights, but the first thing we did was go out, get familiar with the airplane, and then come back and do probably 5 or 6 touch-and-gos. There's enough extra stuff going on compared to, say, the Archer, that going through that routine of what's involved in the takeoffs and landings is good to get it in my head. I certainly feel it helped.

 

[dmccormack]

So how do you train in a complex aircraft and get them familiar with the procedures? I'm not saying your method is wrong, I'd just like to know what it is.

I finished my 5 hour checkout in the Mooney yesterday. I know that I need to do more practice at managing my approach, etc. with it. At this point I will do it by just flying places and learning as I do my actual flights, but the first thing we did was go out, get familiar with the airplane, and then come back and do probably 5 or 6 touch-and-gos. There's enough extra stuff going on compared to, say, the Archer, that going through that routine of what's involved in the takeoffs and landings is good to get it in my head. I certainly feel it helped.

We don't need touch and go in complex airplanes.

We land, roll to a stop, clear the active (if it's busy) and clean up -- look and SAY cowl flaps, flaps, mixture, and then -- and only then -- roll back for another takeoff. If it's a long runway at a towered fld I'll ask for stop and go.

I honestly see no training value in touch and go in retracts.

 

[TMetzinger]

I disagree with Dan - I did T&Gs in training, and do them now as PIC of a complex airplane.

I don't see how doing a touch and go keeps people from doing the required gear checks on downwind and base and final.

 

[TMetzinger]

So how do you train in a complex aircraft and get them familiar with the procedures? I'm not saying your method is wrong, I'd just like to know what it is.

Ted - looking at the planes you have available makes me want to relocate - I miss flying mooneys. By now you've probably learned how critical airspeed control is when landing - my first attempt at a Mooney landing was in a J at Clermont County - so all the folks having hot dogs got to watch me come in at 85ish KIAS, float .... float... float, and go around.

 

[dmccormack]

I disagree with Dan - I did T&Gs in training, and do them now as PIC of a complex airplane.

I don't see how doing a touch and go keeps people from doing the required gear checks on downwind and base and final.

I said it was a religious thing -- but -- I am not willing to put my dollars or certificate on the line when some hurried student reaches for the wrong knob/control.

And it happens.

The only advantage of TnG over Stop and Go is a tiny time savings.

The risks simply don't justify this minuscule advantage.

 

[Everskyward]

I disagree with Dan - I did T&Gs in training, and do them now as PIC of a complex airplane.

I don't see how doing a touch and go keeps people from doing the required gear checks on downwind and base and final.

I think Dan's comment about the gear is more about retracting them accidentally during the time on the ground than getting them down on the downwind. But, like you, I did touch and goes in training and have done them in all kinds of complex airplanes. One thing people need to be careful about, though, it not to become too rushed on the "go" part.

 

[TMetzinger]

Man, in EVERY airplane I fly, the gear doesn't come up below 50 feet, even if I'm "hurrying". That includes multis with an engine failure. The first segment of climb is all about climbing, not cleaning, until you're at a safe altitude and your initial safety speed.

In a touch and go the pilot should have one hand on the yoke, one on the throttle, and they should STAY there until the airplane is up and climbing again.

 

[dmccormack]

Man, in EVERY airplane I fly, the gear doesn't come up below 50 feet, even if I'm "hurrying". That includes multis with an engine failure. The first segment of climb is all about climbing, not cleaning, until you're at a safe altitude and your initial safety speed.

In a touch and go the pilot should have one hand on the yoke, one on the throttle, and they should STAY there until the airplane is up and climbing again.

Cowl flaps?

 

[TMetzinger]

All the airplanes I've flown that were complex and had pilot-controlled cowl flaps (Mooney and Cessna retracts) call for the cowl flaps AFTER climb is established.

The Cessna R182 does call for flaps to be partially retracted right after throttle forward, but that lever is FAR away from the other things. Mooneys don't call for takeoff flaps until climb is established, probably because they DO have gear, flaps, cowl flaps close together. Heck in the Mooney you can even leave the speedbrakes extended until climb. (though it's easy to retract them when they are yoke mounted.)

I think it's important that pilots transitioning to complex airplane learn the rejected landing procedure, which is what a T&G is. Not an aborted approach, a rejected landing.

 

[dmccormack]

All the airplanes I've flown that were complex and had pilot-controlled cowl flaps (Mooney and Cessna retracts) call for the cowl flaps AFTER climb is established.

The Cessna R182 does call for flaps to be partially retracted right after throttle forward, but that lever is FAR away from the other things. Mooneys don't call for takeoff flaps until climb is established, probably because they DO have gear, flaps, cowl flaps close together.

I think it's important that pilots transitioning to complex airplane learn the rejected landing procedure, which is what a T&G is. Not an aborted approach, a rejected landing.

Hunh? Cowl flaps after takeoff? Mine are open on startup (unless it's REALLY cold) and remain that way. They get closed once the airspeed is at cruise climb when ambient temps allow.

The rejected landing procedure is a go around -- you're in the air, you're about to land, you see some obstacle, you add full power, establish a climb, and clean up.

Once on the ground and rolling in the vast majority of cases you are better off skidding off the runway at a slower speed than trying to takeoff with too little runway and impacting something or stalling when you try to "pull it over."

I'm assuming you are doing this complex TnG time at FDK, which has nice long, wide runways. On a 5200'x100' you probably have time to slow down, get it all together, and then take off and still have >2000' of pavement.

I'll clarify my earlier statement -- I see little value given the risk in flying Touch and Go in a complex airplanes.

 

[ApacheBob]

Never, at least in the sense that most people think of a 'run-up'. I've never had a fouled plug in my plane because I lean on the ground and just all the time. My usual routine is to quickly switch to mag L/R to check that they're both working and to check the prop. The other runup stuff doesn't really tell me anything.

-Felix

I use the landing light to show me if the alternator is working. That is how I found out that the landing light had just quit.
ApacheBob

 

[ApacheBob]

70 tach hours in 5 weeks.

35 in the air?
Just kidding!

 

[TMetzinger]

Hunh? Cowl flaps after takeoff? Mine are open on startup (unless it's REALLY cold) and remain that way. They get closed once the airspeed is at cruise climb when ambient temps allow.

The rejected landing procedure is a go around -- you're in the air, you're about to land, you see some obstacle, you add full power, establish a climb, and clean up.

I'll clarify my earlier statement -- I see little value given the risk in flying Touch and Go in a complex airplanes.

For a NORMAL takeoff, of course the cowl flaps are open - they've been open since startup.



A rejected landing (go google it) is a situation where you have already touched down, and for any reason, like:

• Moose walks onto the runway
• You've landed too long, or bounced
• The LAHSO traffic has L'ed and failed to HS.

it is your best judgment that you want to be back in the air, rather than rolling/skidding/groundlooping to a stop. As you've noted, runway length can play a part in this decision, as can your speed and rate of deceleration. But you've made the decision to GO.

The short checklist for this procedure is CRAM, CLIMB, CLEAN
CRAM the throttle(s)
CLIMB the airplane
CLEAN the airplane.

With the exception of the flaps on the Cessna (which I assume is because they are really draggy at 30 or more degrees), the manuals for a rejected landing pretty much call for CRAM-CLIMB-CLEAN.

In my opinion, you do your students a disservice by not going somewhere where you can minimize the risk (AGC maybe?), and teaching them this procedure. Some day they're likely to need it.

 

[2256Q]

A rejected landing (go google it) is a situation where you have already touched down, and for any reason, like:

We have reached a point where we google for information on how to fly an airplane??? That's right up there with "It must be true, I saw it on TV".

 

[dmccormack]

In my opinion, you do your students a disservice by not going somewhere where you can minimize the risk (AGC maybe?), and teaching them this procedure. Some day they're likely to need it.

Tim,

I'm aware of the Rejected landing scenario and the go around procedure (such as Cram-Climb-Clean -- the standard IFR Missed memory aid).

My argument that touch and gos in complex airplanes -- as a matter of expediting training because you don't want to come to a full stop -- is laden with risk.

In a real world rejected landing (such as herd of deer on runway -- common at my home dromes), you need to determine the residual speed, remaining runway length, and distance from obstacle in a moment, and make the decision and execute.

Anytime Ive had to do this I saw the critters while still in the air.

Rarely -- very rarely -- does something jump out after touchdown.

After touching down in most complex SEL we have how much ground roll while smoking the brakes? A few hundred feet?

Certainly some practice taking off immediately after touchdown is useful (I use MGW as the runway is plenty long and I know all the tower controllers), but most of the time the reason we're training in a complex airplane is to learn the systems.

If the trainee has 10,000 hours in a Mooney s/he's probably not coming to me for a complex endorsement.

So as a training method -- the reward (a few seconds saved) is not worth the risk.

Dan

 

[TMetzinger]

Well, I agree that TnGs for saving time isn't a good idea. I still think you owe it to your students to teach them the procedure, maybe as the last step in the process of getting the endorsement.

Bounced landings are the prime reason for rejected landings in little airplanes (big too I bet). Teach them not to salvage the landing, cram-climb-clean and come around again.

 

[dmccormack]

Well, I agree that TnGs for saving time isn't a good idea. I still think you owe it to your students to teach them the procedure, maybe as the last step in the process of getting the endorsement.

Bounced landings are the prime reason for rejected landings in little airplanes (big too I bet). Teach them not to salvage the landing, cram-climb-clean and come around again.

Then perhaps I wasn't clear -- my students do learn go around -- and rejected takeoffs as a matter of course, on rather small runways, with real world obstacles (last week there was a bear cub at VVS).

But, when I teach complex airplanes, the vast majority of landings are full stop, reset everything, and then go again.

 

[TMetzinger]

Ah - if you teach rejected landings in your complex airplanes, then we are in full agreement.

 

[dmccormack]

Ah - if you teach rejected landings in your complex airplanes, then we are in full agreement.

I just don't call them "touch and goes."

 

[Ted]

I honestly see no training value in touch and go in retracts.

Hmm. I suppose we disagree here. That's fine by me, I just wondered what your method was.

 

[dmccormack]

Hmm. I suppose we disagree here. That's fine by me, I just wondered what your method was.

What advantage is there to touch and goes in a complex a/c?

 

[Ted]

Ted - looking at the planes you have available makes me want to relocate - I miss flying mooneys. By now you've probably learned how critical airspeed control is when landing - my first attempt at a Mooney landing was in a J at Clermont County - so all the folks having hot dogs got to watch me come in at 85ish KIAS, float .... float... float, and go around.

As the Mooney's owner and I came in for a straight-in landing on 30, a runway I've landed on at least 75 times, I realized that I screwed up when I started my descent. I saved it and managed to get the plane down and on the ground (and even on a smaller field it would have turned out fine), but earlier when I was out with my instructor (at a smaller field) I forgot this is no Archer, and ended up doing a go-around.

I volunteered "Obviously, I need more practice with this plane." He laughed, but also said he saw no reason why I couldn't start flying it myself. My intention is to do most of the next 75 hours worth of flying in it so that when I get to my 250 TT, I'm good and comfortable with it for my commercial check ride.

As to the relocation bit, well, I have been blessed with the availability (and cost) of the planes I fly, and I really can't figure out why that is. I'm not asking questions, though!

Maybe someday I'll fly down to KJYO for lunch with you, Tim, and we can go for a Mooney ride.

 

[Ted]

What advantage is there to touch and goes in a complex a/c?

What disadvantage is there? Every take-off we do as a full take-off (gear up, flaps up, etc.) and then every downwind is the same as it would be for a landing. I suppose I don't see how it is any different from what you do, other than the fact that it takes less time and doesn't have that last little bit about the cowl flaps.

I'm not arguing with you, Dan. You've got your method, I have mine, I don't see why either one is "wrong" just different.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What disadvantage is there? Every take-off we do as a full take-off (gear up, flaps up, etc.) and then every downwind is the same as it would be for a landing. I suppose I don't see how it is any different from what you do, other than the fact that it takes less time and doesn't have that last little bit about the cowl flaps.

I'm not arguing with you, Dan. You've got your method, I have mine, I don't see why either one is "wrong" just different.

The fear in doing T&G's on a complex is that when you're trying to raise the flaps for the go, you'll grab the wrong knob and raise the gear instead.

IMHO, if someone doesn't know where the knobs are yet, there are other issues. I did do T&G's during complex training, but that was in an Arrow where the flaps are the BIG HANDLE on the floor, and the gear is the tiny knob on the panel. I was also taught to grab the flap handle, verify "Flaps", and THEN move it.

Maybe part of Dan's rationale is that in some airplanes, and I believe it was the old Beeches that he tends to fly, the flaps were on the left and the gear on the right, opposite of all the other planes out there...

 

[dmccormack]

Maybe part of Dan's rationale is that in some airplanes, and I believe it was the old Beeches that he tends to fly, the flaps were on the left and the gear on the right, opposite of all the other planes out there...

It's more than a "fear," it's a proven accident cause.

(Uber-pilots can ignore this --->) Mere mortals make mistakes. The hurry-up condition of landing/rolling/re-configuring is no place to teach complex aircraft operations.

As far as old Bonanzas, I'll bet the first time you see the piano keys you have no idea which switch is which.

 

[dmccormack]

What disadvantage is there? Every take-off we do as a full take-off (gear up, flaps up, etc.) and then every downwind is the same as it would be for a landing. I suppose I don't see how it is any different from what you do, other than the fact that it takes less time and doesn't have that last little bit about the cowl flaps.

I'm not arguing with you, Dan. You've got your method, I have mine, I don't see why either one is "wrong" just different.

"Method" it certainly is -- but this method -- no TnG in Complex -- will reduce the likelihood of a gear up incident.

As I said before -- I am not willing to take that risk. Others seem to be, and my guess is that eventually they will be explaining that they reached for this and thought it was that.

 

[Ted]

"Method" it certainly is -- but this method -- no TnG in Complex -- will reduce the likelihood of a gear up incident.

So will flying an aircraft with fixed gear.

As I said before -- I am not willing to take that risk. Others seem to be, and my guess is that eventually they will be explaining that they reached for this and thought it was that.

My guess is those people have no business flying the aircraft they're in in the first place.

Sorry, you haven't convinced me. But, I'm not trying to convince you, so I'd appreciate it if you extended the same courtesy to me.

 

[wabower]

It's an odds deal. Get a bookie to quote them, or read the NTSB reports. There's a reason (actually lots of reasons) why experienced pilots and instructors don't do them. I can't think of any reason that supports doing them.

So will flying an aircraft with fixed gear.



My guess is those people have no business flying the aircraft they're in in the first place.

Sorry, you haven't convinced me. But, I'm not trying to convince you, so I'd appreciate it if you extended the same courtesy to me.

 

[etsisk]

a grumpy old flight instructor told me "never pass up a chance to do a run-up!" and I agree, totally. Run up before each take off, even if I just taxied back to take off again. That's still enough time for the right mag to run rough!

edit: of course, being late to the party I see the thread has already changed topics! sigh!

 

[Ted]

edit: of course, being late to the party I see the thread has already changed topics! sigh!

Yep... standard issue where certain people feel that they must force their opinions on others. This is why I don't participate as much as I used to.

Insurance statistics say a lot of things. For example:

- My mom should be a low risk driver (despite having wrecked 2 cars in the past 10 years and 50,000 miles of driving)
- I should be a high risk driver, especially since I break the speed limit (despite having had 0 accidents since I started driving 8 years and 280,000 miles ago)

Yep... all statistics tell me is what the person making them set out to prove.

 

[dmccormack]

Yep... all statistics tell me is what the person making them set out to prove.

“Lies, damned lies, and statistics” Benjamin Disraeli

 

[TMetzinger]

Statistics are very good predictors of what will happen to a statistically significant group. They are USELESS for predicting what will happen to a particular member of that group.

GA pilots IN GENERAL have a fatal accident rate about 100 times as bad as the airlines. Me in particular, my accident rate is better than ANY airline.

For many of the pilots in here (and in my safety lectures too) it's a Lake Wobegon thing - all the pilots are above average (compared to the entire population).