Rule of thumb for pattern sequencing?

NelsonMinar

NelsonMinar

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Nelson Minar
Is there a good rule of thumb for figuring out traffic sequencing when several airplanes are arriving from different directions at an untowered airport?

I'm a student pilot, a couple of weeks from taking my checkride. Most of my training has been at towered airports. When I've visited untowered airports I'm not always sure how to fit myself in to the pattern. Ie: at Lodi (1O3) the other day I was just entering downwind in a Skyhawk when someone called in "Aeronca Chief on 5 mile final". I had no idea who should go first, even though I knew where he was and where I was I couldn't quite figure it out. So I asked and he politely told me I had plenty of time to land ahead of him. (Later I got to speak wtih the pilot and once I learned that his Chief is going about 60mph on approach I understood why I had time :blush:)

What I'm looking for is some rule of thumb. Like "it takes 4 minutes for a Skyhawk to fly a standard pattern", or "downwind to off the runway takes 3 minutes", or "extending downwind 1 minute makes room for another plane to land". It seems particularly tricky when you have a mix of planes of different speeds.

I should add I'm not in a hurry out there, not interested in figuring out if I can cut ahead of someone. Just looking for how to turn my knowledge of where other planes are into a picture of where they're going.
 
Actually, and to be slightly more serious, I was pondering the same problem the other day. Pilots like gadgets and I am no different. Why can't someone come up with a gadget to help? is what I thought. Many of us have a ttg display somewhere, if only that could be configured to show average ttg for your airplane based on its position in the pattern, and then shared among the others in the area. Crazy, right? but then so was tcas at one time.
 
No thumb rule that I can come up with after 40+ years, but good manners will always pay off. Asking, as you did, is a good thing. Slowing down to avoid conflict is another good thing.

Bob Gardner
 
Well, there's a rule of law on point, and it says this:
91.119 said:
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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Based on case law, the FAA's take on this is you don't turn in front of a plane on final unless you can complete your landing without affecting the other aircraft's approach/landing. In the case of the Chief, you didn't know what he was, or how long it would take, so you did exactly the right thing by asking, and then turning in after the other pilot said it was OK. Stick with that sort of courtesy, and you'll do just fine.

As for rules of thumb about aircraft types and the like, there really aren't any. I've seen Cub pilots fly a 2-mile wide/deep pattern taking more than five minutes to get from abeam to the runway, and light twin pilots fly a short, tight pattern taking only 60 seconds to do the same. All you can do is listen, report, keep your head on a swivel, and not be afraid to ask on the radio if you aren't sure about another aircraft -- which, it seems, is already what you're doing, so good on ya!:)

Eventually, you'll pick up a better feel for this, but even after 40 years and nearly 9000 hours, I still don't feel sure I know what another pilot will do based solely on a position report and aircraft type.
 
OK Capn Ron has brought out the serious side in me so I will add:

I do not rely on someone's position report. You have to have visual contact before making decisions on what to do. Even then, keep in mind that the one you are looking at may not be the one you are talking to. If in doubt I have been known to 'fly off' somewhere while the furball sorts itself out. Just stand off a few miles and wait til everyone gets outta the way if you have to. Or if the pattern is continuously busy you will need to try to eyeball everyone then find a gap. 'There is always one more airplane out there, you can't see him and he ain't talking so you never let your guard down.'
 
There's no "plug in" formula that I know of- too many variables, as listed already.
Listen and talk, but keep your eyes outside (and not just on the runway), and be flexible. Even at tower-controlled airports... don't count on the tower to keep you safe; they have no magic power that keeps planes away from each other, only the authority to issue instructions, which could be misunderstood, ignored, or just plain wrong to begin with.

At a non-towered field, if you can't afford, due to fuel or some other reason, to remain clear for a minute or two, or fly a full pattern once without descending on final, you've already made a mistake, which is your problem, not everybody else's. :D

That's the key to courtesy in the pattern (and, ultimately, safety): your own agenda has to fit into the "Big Picture", not take priority over it.
 
bobmrg said:
No thumb rule that I can come up with after 40+ years, but good manners will always pay off. Asking, as you did, is a good thing. Slowing down to avoid conflict is another good thing.

Bob Gardner
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That is what I would say. Talking on the radio to each other sometime can help, but that should also be tempered with just how busy the frequency is. Sometimes I find it just better to do as Bob said and let the other guys go ahead.

This often happens when I am practicing approaches on a CAVU day and lots of VFR fliers up. Sometimes it is best to cut the approach short, leave the pattern and re-enter to cause less confusion and conflict.
 
See and avoid, I think as you do a few more patterns you'll see that it seems to flow naturally. Generally once you see the other craft it becomes obvious one of you will be closer or "in front" I was lucky to learn at a very busy towered field(BFI). My current home Field S50 has a tricky pattern,Class B restrictions & terrain & is non towered & busy. Good radio work, good eyes and courtesy make it all seem effortless in practice. Dave P.S. you can allways use the magic words "student pilot", and you'll get extra help. DR
 
Thanks for the feedback. Sorry no one's got a simple rule for me, but I see why it may be impossible. Experience, communication, and patience.
Many of us have a ttg display somewhere, if only that could be configured to show average ttg for your airplane based on its position in the pattern, and then shared among the others in the area.
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I think that's exactly what ADS-B will enable, a display of nearby planes with their current velocity vectors. So maybe in 10 years my question will have a simple answer!
 
NelsonMinar said:
I think that's exactly what ADS-B will enable, a display of nearby planes with their current velocity vectors. So maybe in 10 years my question will have a simple answer!
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NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The LAST thing we need is more heads down into displays!

Pattern spacing?

Do what you did... talk on the radio. No radio? See and be seen.

Think of the traffic pattern like entering an escalator or revolving door -- there's only room for 1 at a time, glance, acknowledge, take turn -- easy!
 
NelsonMinar said:
Is there a good rule of thumb for figuring out traffic sequencing when several airplanes are arriving from different directions at an untowered airport?

I'm a student pilot, a couple of weeks from taking my checkride. Most of my training has been at towered airports. When I've visited untowered airports I'm not always sure how to fit myself in to the pattern. Ie: at Lodi (1O3) the other day I was just entering downwind in a Skyhawk when someone called in "Aeronca Chief on 5 mile final". I had no idea who should go first, even though I knew where he was and where I was I couldn't quite figure it out. So I asked and he politely told me I had plenty of time to land ahead of him. (Later I got to speak wtih the pilot and once I learned that his Chief is going about 60mph on approach I understood why I had time :blush:)

What I'm looking for is some rule of thumb. Like "it takes 4 minutes for a Skyhawk to fly a standard pattern", or "downwind to off the runway takes 3 minutes", or "extending downwind 1 minute makes room for another plane to land". It seems particularly tricky when you have a mix of planes of different speeds.

I should add I'm not in a hurry out there, not interested in figuring out if I can cut ahead of someone. Just looking for how to turn my knowledge of where other planes are into a picture of where they're going.
Click to expand...

Forget the "gadgets" approach to this issue. No "gadget" for figuring this out will serve all possible situations as individual aircraft performance is varied from one extreme to the other.
It's a pure judgment call every time you encounter it on arrival. Knowing you are going to be arriving at a non controlled field is first in how you set up for that arrival.
You monitor any local radio available if any and get a handle on what's in the air near the field and what each is doing. You note where they are and how that relates to where you are. You project based on what you are picking up as a BEGINNING for your arrival sequencing. If Unicom is in use you help yourself AND other pilots doing the same thing you are doing by adding your voice to the mix by stating who you are, where you are, and that you are inbound.
Monitoring radio can get you the "runway in use" fairly well out and you can factor that into your arrival planning.
Based on all this information, I would advise you arrive over the field above pattern altitude and use the recommended procedure for a non controlled arrival.
There is much written about straight in approaches and circling approaches at non controlled fields. I always advise pilots to plan to use the recommended procedure and watch out for those not using it, and there most likely will be those not using it.
Remember, your safety and the safety of others is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. ANY and ALL final decisions rest with YOU as that relates to sequencing and spacing.
Dudley Henriques
 
rottydaddy said:
Especially in the pattern!! Worst idea since the special "pattern entry whiz wheel". :nono:
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Boy, when I was learning to fly (50 years ago) I really wanted one of those things. My instructor always wanted to know what heading I should be on. I soon found that gadgets can't replace the brain.
 
I think courtesy (which has already been stated) is he best answer. If I am out putzing around and someone is obviously coming in on business, I will let them go ahead of me even if I have to slow way down. When I am approaching a field with heavy ag activity (those guys are usually not on the radio and often land downwind and rarely fly a regular pattern), I try to be as visible as I can, fly a regular pattern and get off the runway as quickly as I can after landing. I have often side stepped after takeoff to let them land, although the last time I did that, the ag guy didn't land but went on past the end of the runway and I had to turn the other way. They will usually let me in/out, even if they have to do 360's off the opposite end of the runway. How about some input from you current and former ag operators? What do you want/expect us "other guys" to do?
 
Summary:
* Everyone out there is your buddy. Treat them more politely than you'd expect to be treated.
* If they're on the radio, ask what you need to know. Be nice, but be brief.
* Not all of your buddies have radios. Keep an eye out for them, because some of them can't see you either.
* Yield right of way to your buddies any time you get the feeling you might have to hurry.
* If things are hairy, get out of there so you don't get overwhelmed. It's better to pay a little extra in gas than to bump into your buddy or litter your plane across his runway.
* When your buddy is being an utter idiot, remember he's just having a bad day and try to give him some space.

/end:ramble
 
You may not like the answer you get... probably either "Just stay the hell out of my way" or "There are 'other guys'? Really?" ;) :D
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I know, although I know quite a few ag operators and most of them are pretty good guys. Not many of them want to run into another airplane, even a little C-150 like mine!
 
somorris said:
I know, although I know quite a few ag operators and most of them are pretty good guys. Not many of them want to run into another airplane, even a little C-150 like mine!
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I agree- I was kiding, really.
They are busy, and they have special concerns with the kind of flying they do and the loads they carry. I've never flown in the pattern at a field used often by ag pilots, but I often have to deal with banner towers; a similar scenario. You just have to think about what they are dealing with, and cut them some slack.
 
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