Rudder

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Vas

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Vas
I recently started flight training, and was really surprised at the difficulty pushing on the rudder. I feel almost like I'm pressing a leg press but with my feet/ankles (and I'm not a weak guy, I can leg press 500+ lbs). In the air it doesn't seem to be a huge problem since small pushes seem to help in turn coordination, but the problem is that I'm not sure I'll be able to make small adjustments when I need to use so much force.

I also have a some difficulty distinguishing between the rudder part of the pedal and the brake part of the pedal, so maybe I'm just pressing on the wrong part?

Anyone encountered this or have any suggestions? Is this normal? I'm thinking about just showing up an hour early for my next lesson and sitting in the plane turned off to press on the pedals to see what I could be doing wrong.
 
You must be pushing more on the top of the pedal than on the actual rudder (bottom part) because it shouldn’t take that much pressure at all.
 
Fly barefoot. On the ground, heels on floor, toes on rudder. Take toes off rudder to use brakes. You’re using small muscles, not big ones.
 
If you’re not using brakes, heels on the floor.

I’ve occasionally seen guys push with one foot, not realizing they were resisting with the other. Barefoot, or thin-soles shoes can help initially.
 
What type aircraft are you flying? Some aircraft, like Grummans, have pretty stiff rudder springs, but don't require superhuman effort to use.

In an aircraft with toe brakes, you pretty much use your legs, not toes, to push the pedals back and forth. Toes are used to mash on the top of the pedals to apply the brakes.
 
Thanks all, I will try these approaches. It's a C-172N.
 
You should be able to wiggle your fingers and toes while flying. If you can't you're way too tense. Oh, and you know that the rudder pedals are interconnected, right? One goes down, the other up.

As a point of reference, a friend's kid took a discovery flight a month ago in a similar plane. He's 11, probably weighs 70 lbs, and had no trouble with the rudder.
 
Vas said:
I recently started flight training, and was really surprised at the difficulty pushing on the rudder. I feel almost like I'm pressing a leg press but with my feet/ankles (and I'm not a weak guy, I can leg press 500+ lbs). In the air it doesn't seem to be a huge problem since small pushes seem to help in turn coordination, but the problem is that I'm not sure I'll be able to make small adjustments when I need to use so much force.

I also have a some difficulty distinguishing between the rudder part of the pedal and the brake part of the pedal, so maybe I'm just pressing on the wrong part?

Anyone encountered this or have any suggestions? Is this normal? I'm thinking about just showing up an hour early for my next lesson and sitting in the plane turned off to press on the pedals to see what I could be doing wrong.
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Remember that you should think of control inputs as pressures, not movements. You will not ever have much reason to use large rudder deflections in flight. If the force still seems excessive, you might be pushing on both pedals at once. The last thing I can think of is that your seat might not be far forward enough.
 
Vas said:
I recently started flight training, and was really surprised at the difficulty pushing on the rudder. I feel almost like I'm pressing a leg press but with my feet/ankles (and I'm not a weak guy, I can leg press 500+ lbs). In the air it doesn't seem to be a huge problem since small pushes seem to help in turn coordination, but the problem is that I'm not sure I'll be able to make small adjustments when I need to use so much force.

I also have a some difficulty distinguishing between the rudder part of the pedal and the brake part of the pedal, so maybe I'm just pressing on the wrong part?

Anyone encountered this or have any suggestions? Is this normal? I'm thinking about just showing up an hour early for my next lesson and sitting in the plane turned off to press on the pedals to see what I could be doing wrong.
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Welcome to POA. Hangar flying can be valuable for all kinds of things. For this you can do it to apply a lot of the suggestions above. You’ll feel more pressure needed than when you’re in the air because it’s a nose wheel steering airplane. But the heels on the floor and making sure you’re not fighting yourself with the other foot and stuff like that can be practiced on the ground.
 
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luvflyin said:
You’ll feel more pressure needed than when you’re in the air because it’s a nose wheel steering airplane.
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Actually, the rudder loads are higher in the air in a 172. Not only do you have air loads on the rudder, but the steering bungees are being compressed more in flight because the nosewheel is locked straight ahead.

Now, that raises the possibility that the rudder system in this airplane is out of rig. If those bungees aren't properly adjusted they might already be compessed more and adding to the pedal resistance.
 
Vas said:
I recently started flight training, and was really surprised at the difficulty pushing on the rudder. I feel almost like I'm pressing a leg press but with my feet/ankles (and I'm not a weak guy, I can leg press 500+ lbs). In the air it doesn't seem to be a huge problem since small pushes seem to help in turn coordination, but the problem is that I'm not sure I'll be able to make small adjustments when I need to use so much force.

I also have a some difficulty distinguishing between the rudder part of the pedal and the brake part of the pedal, so maybe I'm just pressing on the wrong part?

Anyone encountered this or have any suggestions? Is this normal? I'm thinking about just showing up an hour early for my next lesson and sitting in the plane turned off to press on the pedals to see what I could be doing wrong.
Click to expand...
On the ground, stopped, you're turning the C172's nosewheel against the friction of the ground as well as moving the rudder. When you're rolling on the ground, there's less friction to overcome with the nosewheel, and in the air, none at all worth mentioning.
 
Are you sure your CFI isn't casually applying back opposite pressure on his pedals to sabotage you? ;)

Seriously though, as all the others said, the rudder pedals shouldn't be hard to press in most conditions. I'd ask your CFI to look down at your foot placement on the pedals to make sure it's correct and see what he suggests as he knows those pedals and that specific plane better than any of us.
 
T Bird said:
Are you sure your CFI isn't casually applying back opposite pressure on his pedals to sabotage you? ;)

Seriously though, as all the others said, the rudder pedals shouldn't be hard to press in most conditions. I'd ask your CFI to look down at your foot placement on the pedals to make sure it's correct and see what he suggests as he knows those pedals and that specific plane better than any of us.
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In my Mooney I’ve had tall people block the pedals without even realizing it. It’s possible.
 
David Megginson said:
On the ground, stopped, you're turning the C172's nosewheel against the friction of the ground as well as moving the rudder. When you're rolling on the ground, there's less friction to overcome with the nosewheel, and in the air, none at all worth mentioning.
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In the air, the 172's nosegear locks straight ahead, and the steering bungees (steering tubes) have to flex to let the rudder move. That makes the system stiffer when airborne, not easier to move. It's this way to center the rudder in flight, making the airplane more stable in yaw.

Those bungees are the reason for the springy steering in a Cessna compared to a Piper. The springs in the bungees get softer with use, making steering poor in old, high-time airplanes.
 
Echo the sentiment on thin sole shoes. Didn’t switch to normal sneakers until around 200 hours.
 
More than a couple of the old trainers I've flown had loose carpet in the pilot's footwell. That, combined with the way the pedals are designed in the 172, make rudder pedal movement in those airplanes seem ridiculously stiff to me.

I'd check to make sure the carpet isn't bunching up under your feet. Don't wear boots or heavy shoes. I use a pair of New Balance "Minimus" for flying. They're only $100 or so. And, I think they're as good as those expensive "flying shoes" that all the cool aerobatic pilots wear. They help you feel the rudder bar so you stay off the brakes.
 
By way of update, I switched to a different 172N during my most recent lesson, and did not have this problem at all. Could either be because I took a moment to look at the pedals and understand what was going on... maybe just felt better because it wasn't my first lesson... or could be the new plane. Thanks so much for everyone's advice here.
 
Some of the old training 172's are in poor shape. I rented one the last time I flew that was a total dog. Mis-rigged, wouldn't track straight on the ground, just horrible. Sounds like this is probably your situation. An old worn out trainer....
 
Brad W said:
Some of the old training 172's are in poor shape. I rented one the last time I flew that was a total dog. Mis-rigged, wouldn't track straight on the ground, just horrible. Sounds like this is probably your situation. An old worn out trainer....
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I've worked on a lot of 172s that weren't that old and worn-out, and found all the controls misrigged to some degree. Mechanics either don't have the manuals, or don't bother to read them, and so stuff ends up way off and it flies funny. Get it all sorted out and the owner will ask what magic I did to his airplane. Everything moves easily and precisely and it flies straight and sometimes flies faster.
 
A 172 doesn’t require much rudder. Pressures shouldn’t be much of a concern. Fly a Cub? Rudder airplane.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I've worked on a lot of 172s that weren't that old and worn-out, and found all the controls misrigged to some degree. Mechanics either don't have the manuals, or don't bother to read them, and so stuff ends up way off and it flies funny. Get it all sorted out and the owner will ask what magic I did to his airplane. Everything moves easily and precisely and it flies straight and sometimes flies faster.
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I flew an N model a couple of years ago, and mentioned to the owner how nice the controls were (compared to other 172s). He told me that he'd had the aircraft re-rigged and all the old pulleys and hardware replaced. He said the work was done by a couple of "crotchety older than dirt A&Ps that know their stuff".
 
wilkersk said:
and all the old pulleys and hardware replaced.
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Yup. Those pulleys have factory-lubed ball bearings in them. The bearings have shields but not seals. The grease in them dries out after 40 years and they get stiff, reluctant to turn. I have found them frozen solid, with the cable sliding over them. That destroys both the cable and the pulley. Sure makes the controls stuff. Sometimes one can get a few drops of MIL-spec oil into them (NOT LPS; refer to OEM manuals) and work them free and they'll run for a long time after that but they should be checked every year. After all, that's what "all systems checked for proper operation" means in FAR43 Appendix D. Obviously, few get looked at, never mind spun by hand to see how they're doing.
 
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