Rudder Use Tips

Credit should go to my friend Robert Reser on the what causes stall question. His e-book How to Fly Airplanes is also free. Google him or if you email me I will send his book as well with his permission.
 
Your Cherokee has bungee connect between the rudder and aileron, but when you maneuver aggressively it will not keep up. Also it will never lead rudder properly to cause the nose to first go (yaw) in the proper direction. The coordination of the bungee connect will apply rudder with your aileron movement. That is behind the initial adverse yaw and the nose going opposite the direction of the yoke movement.
Never seen a PA28 with any interconnect between rudder and aileron.
 
This old maneuver requires proper rudder usage, that is to lead rudder. Adverse yaw, caused by the down aileron inducing more life and pulling more air than the up aileron, happens immediately with aileron movement so following with coordinated rudder is not going to prevent the nose from going the wrong way initially.
If you really led with the rudder, then you'd start every turn in a skid, which would be even worse than starting every turn in a slip. When old timers say they're "leading" with rudder, I suspect they really mean that they're applying rudder at more-or-less the same time as aileron in anticipation, before there's an opportunity for adverse yaw to develop.

There's a risk that new pilots would misunderstand "lead with the rudder" and actually start a turn with rudder alone. As Wolfgang Langwiesche emphasised way back in Stick and Rudder, skidding turns are a major cause of fatal stall-spin accidents, especially on the turn from base to final. The language might need some tweaking to avoid teaching the wrong lesson.
 
My mind says you must be perfectly correct, we are just coordinating rudder with aileron. And yes, it is an instructional technique to overcome driving with the yoke. But in practice with Dutch Rolls or with steep turns, not leading rudder delays progress unsafely. This is especially true with getting the down wing up from significant bank. This is especially true in spin prevention after stall and in the falling leaf. No aileron is used, no coordination, just rudder is used to bring the wing back level. From an instructor point of view, there is much more slipping around turns with insufficient rudder than skidding turns.

Wolfgang Langwiesche also emphasised paying attention to what the airplane wants to do. It doesn't want to make level turns, either slipping or skidding level turns. It doesn't want to stall making spin possible. In fact dynamic neutral stability, which lowers the nose after disturbed air pitches it up and after any banking, prevents stall. It takes a pilot pulling back on the stick to cause stall and spin. It is the pilot pulling back on the stick and not his pushing on the rudder that causes the stall. Without the stall there can be spiral but no spin.

Zero timers are much easier to teach crop dusting than those who arrive at Ag school with a Commercial, for the most part, because turning with insufficient rudder to make the nose move appropriate to the angle of bank is muscle memory with high time pilots who have not had to turn steeply very much. Slipping turns, not skidding turns are much more common. Yes poor wind management that causes pilots to make downwind base to final flat turns cause spins too often. When practicable, no traffic around for instance, an upwind base at slower ground speed and tighter diameter of turn is much safer than a downwind base and base to final turn. And any turn is safer if we let the nose go down as designed. Even the climbing tun. Are we in such a hurry to get up that we can't release back pressure in the climbing turn and then pull again when wings are level after the turn? Are we in that much of a hurry to climb so steep and slow that we stall in the pattern where we don't have room for recovery? Anyway, what we have to yell more than anything else in Ag school is, "push that nose around." The energy management (Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster) turn or crop duster turn is not a level turn. We don't have any need to be up there anyway. We have to descend to spray. We have to descend to land. The airplane is fine with descending. It doesn't really like climbing so well. Especially at less than enough airspeed to safely maneuver.

Again, outside of actually flying the airplane, what you say is perfectly logical and correct. Yes, level skidding turns are dangerous. Any level turn is dangerous. As some angle of bank, we are going down by pitching down or falling anyway. Limiting bank is not a solution. It is an excuse for not learning to fly the airplane safely. Yes, Stick and Rudder has a lot to do with flying the airplane safely.
 
My mind says you must be perfectly correct, we are just coordinating rudder with aileron. And yes, it is an instructional technique to overcome driving with the yoke. But in practice with Dutch Rolls or with steep turns, not leading rudder delays progress unsafely. This is especially true with getting the down wing up from significant bank. This is especially true in spin prevention after stall and in the falling leaf. No aileron is used, no coordination, just rudder is used to bring the wing back level. From an instructor point of view, there is much more slipping around turns with insufficient rudder than skidding turns.

Wolfgang Langwiesche also emphasised paying attention to what the airplane wants to do. It doesn't want to make level turns, either slipping or skidding level turns. It doesn't want to stall making spin possible. In fact dynamic neutral stability, which lowers the nose after disturbed air pitches it up and after any banking, prevents stall. It takes a pilot pulling back on the stick to cause stall and spin. It is the pilot pulling back on the stick and not his pushing on the rudder that causes the stall. Without the stall there can be spiral but no spin.

Zero timers are much easier to teach crop dusting than those who arrive at Ag school with a Commercial, for the most part, because turning with insufficient rudder to make the nose move appropriate to the angle of bank is muscle memory with high time pilots who have not had to turn steeply very much. Slipping turns, not skidding turns are much more common. Yes poor wind management that causes pilots to make downwind base to final flat turns cause spins too often. When practicable, no traffic around for instance, an upwind base at slower ground speed and tighter diameter of turn is much safer than a downwind base and base to final turn. And any turn is safer if we let the nose go down as designed. Even the climbing tun. Are we in such a hurry to get up that we can't release back pressure in the climbing turn and then pull again when wings are level after the turn? Are we in that much of a hurry to climb so steep and slow that we stall in the pattern where we don't have room for recovery? Anyway, what we have to yell more than anything else in Ag school is, "push that nose around." The energy management (Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster) turn or crop duster turn is not a level turn. We don't have any need to be up there anyway. We have to descend to spray. We have to descend to land. The airplane is fine with descending. It doesn't really like climbing so well. Especially at less than enough airspeed to safely maneuver.

Again, outside of actually flying the airplane, what you say is perfectly logical and correct. Yes, level skidding turns are dangerous. Any level turn is dangerous. As some angle of bank, we are going down by pitching down or falling anyway. Limiting bank is not a solution. It is an excuse for not learning to fly the airplane safely. Yes, Stick and Rudder has a lot to do with flying the airplane safely.
Absolutely — I fully understand where you were taking that. If a student banks, waits until they notice the adverse yaw, and then applies rudder, they'll always be behind the plane, slewing around the sky.

Maybe just adding "by a fraction of a second" after "lead with the rudder" would avoid any confusion. What you're really doing, I believe, is teaching the student to think about the rudder and have their foot engaged and ready to move before they move the ailerons, and from that POV, the sequence makes sense (as long as they don't separate them into two steps with a pause in-between, eg rudder…[skid]…aileron).
 
Maybe just adding "by a fraction of a second" after "lead with the rudder" would avoid any confusion.
Or maybe just explain to the student that it's not just keeping the airplane "coordinated" by watching the ball and reacting to it, it's getting your feet coordinated with your hands so that they move together and the ball stays centered -- not chasing it.
 
I think you mean PA28 rudder and nose wheel, not ailerons.
 
Lots of SOLID crosswind landings, and takeoffs, help. An instructor (or someone diligent) harping during this will help.

It’s pretty rare for me to make it through ANY flight without harping on rudder use a fair amount. Mostly vis a vis maintaining centerline ALL THE TIME. Approach, flare, and rollout. Also takeoff roll, and liftoff until a wind corrected heading on departure is established until a deliberate departure from the pattern.
 
That's my plan once I've done with my PPL, I'm trying to find some good exercises for the training I'm in now, without switching airplanes in between.

I'd encourage you TO fly different aircraft during your PPL training. I flew a DA40 (glass/constant speed prop), C172 (steam), and a Citabria taildragger all before I soloed. It forced me to learn the fundamentals of flying vs. just following checklists. The taildragger time was immensely helpful. If anything, when I went back to the C172 I was overusing the rudders for the first few turns. By the ~25 hours mark coordinated turns were completely natural for me without even looking at the instruments. The "seat of the pants" thing is real.
 
This is a great question. Being uncoordinated in a turn in the pattern can easily be the difference between a stall and a stall/spin. Stalls are a lot more likely to be recoverable at pattern altitude than a spin.

I'll second the advice on getting some tailwheel time, if only because they'll get you used to using the rudder all the time. For me, Dutch rolls didn't seem to help me with learning anything but how to do Dutch rolls. :)

Two things I didn't see listed. First, practice slow flight. Not the new ACS slow flight, but so slow that a wing is ready to drop. Then spend some time with roll control via rudder. I don't know if that helps everyone, but it was the primary thing that lit up "rudder work" in my head while in the air. Second, fly slips at altitude until you absolutely love them. Then do them on approach, obviously getting out of the slip before landing. For whatever reason, intentionally flying safely uncoordinated led me to be much more aware of intentionally flying coordinated the rest of the time. But maybe I'm wired differently than most.
 
For whatever reason, intentionally flying safely uncoordinated led me to be much more aware of intentionally flying coordinated the rest of the time. But maybe I'm wired differently than most.
That's fair — it's hard to know what coordinated feels like if you don't know what uncoordinated feels like.
 
I vote for a few hours in a tailwheel trainer….
 
Second, fly slips at altitude until you absolutely love them. Then do them on approach, obviously getting out of the slip before landing. For whatever reason, intentionally flying safely uncoordinated led me to be much more aware of intentionally flying coordinated the rest of the time. But maybe I'm wired differently than most.

Good information here. Just be aware that altitude is your friend when learning to fly uncoordinated. Slips are very useful but skids can get quite ugly in a hurry and are deadly down low. I really like the explanation given in this video (start at 3:15):

 
Call me a bad pilot if you want. But I stay off the rudders in the traffic pattern until established on final. If someone has a constructive rebut to that mindset I’m happy to listen. To clarify, I’m not talking about the departure portion. Downwind and base to final. No rudder inputs. Thoughts?
 
Call me a bad pilot if you want. But I stay off the rudders in the traffic pattern until established on final. If someone has a constructive rebut to that mindset I’m happy to listen. To clarify, I’m not talking about the departure portion. Downwind and base to final. No rudder inputs. Thoughts?
I'm guessing you're doing that to try to avoid the temptation to unconsciously "tighten" the base-to-final turn with the rudder? I don't see anything dangerous about that — except maybe making your passengers a bit queasy — but there are probably better options.

For example, you could practice overshooting the base-to-final turn on purpose until you instinctively understand that doing a gentle S-turn on final to line up is no big deal (just like you practiced stalls until it was instinctive to push down instead of pulling up when the nose dropped). Once you're past the unconscious temptation to do a skidding turn, you can trust yourself again to use the rudder to ensure that your turns are coordinated (rather than making sloppy, slipping turns from downwind to base and base to final).
 
That's my plan once I've done with my PPL, I'm trying to find some good exercises for the training I'm in now, without switching airplanes in between.

The sense of rudder has to be felt by your seat of the pants. I don't think any amount of technical explanations or a CFI telling you "more right rudder" will bring you this awareness. I would say you should not need a ball to tell if you are co-ordinated or not. Old habits are hard to break, so if this is a particular weakness for you, I would recommend getting some hours in a tailwheel, and not wait until you finish your checkride.
 
Sure, go get some time in a tailwheel airplane. You won’t forget about rudder use anymore.

Then when you’re ready for the masters degree in rudder get your glider ticket.
 
Call me a bad pilot if you want. But I stay off the rudders in the traffic pattern until established on final. If someone has a constructive rebut to that mindset I’m happy to listen. To clarify, I’m not talking about the departure portion. Downwind and base to final. No rudder inputs. Thoughts?

You state that you don't use the rudders but you didn't say why you don't. Your reasoning for not using the rudders would be interesting ...
 
G2 Cirrus with interconnected rudder.
Hardly unique. Navions have had rudder interconnects since 1946. It's pretty easy to overpower, but means for most flight regimes you can leave your feet on the floor.
 
You state that you don't use the rudders but you didn't say why you don't. Your reasoning for not using the rudders would be interesting ...
I'm 99% certain the OP's reason was I wrote in my reply: if your feet aren't on the rudder pedals during the turns from downwind to base and base to final, you won't unconsciously try to "tighten" them with inside rudder if you're worried about overshooting the final approach course (likely cause of a large number of accidents). I suggested (I think) a better alternative for mitigating that risk.
 
Call me a bad pilot if you want. But I stay off the rudders in the traffic pattern until established on final. If someone has a constructive rebut to that mindset I’m happy to listen. To clarify, I’m not talking about the departure portion. Downwind and base to final. No rudder inputs. Thoughts?

No way I would criticize your flying or call you a bad pilot, but for me, anytime I use the ailerons, I use rudder. Sometimes, especially when flying slow, I use rudder when I don’t use ailerons, but not the other way around. I think staying coordinated is as important in the pattern as anywhere else. My thinking is that if something about flying makes you uncomfortable, you should work on that particular thing (maybe with aerobatic training with regard to aileron/rudder use) until you understand it well enough so you are no longer uncomfortable. It looks like a lot of folks here think tailwheel training holds the answer (I don’t think so), but do whatever works for YOU! Pilots are a unique breed, and I don’t want to see you or anyone else on the news.
 
Another thing that will help a lot is actively work at keeping the center line of the runway between the main wheels during takeoff and landing.

Brian

I prefer to keep the centerline between my legs on T/O and landing. Then the nosewheel is not banging on the centerline lights.
 
Call me a bad pilot if you want. But I stay off the rudders in the traffic pattern until established on final. If someone has a constructive rebut to that mindset I’m happy to listen. To clarify, I’m not talking about the departure portion. Downwind and base to final. No rudder inputs. Thoughts?

My only thought is that you might be giving yourself a false sense of security, if you believe you're going to avoid a spin if you stall. I say that because unless you're flying an ercoupe or something else with a coupled rudder, it sounds like you're intentionally slipping around the pattern, to avoid accidentally getting into a skid. I say that because I know many/most light single engine aircraft don't quickly roll from a stall when in a full slip, but I'm not sure that's true at all in a mild slip. You're not using a procedure that's recommended anywhere I've ever seen, so I'd be curious as to if or how you tested stalling in that configuration. I won't say bad, I would say maybe reckless, without any other information to go on.
 
anytime I use the ailerons, I use rudder
That's an important point. The same applies in turbulence when you're responding to temporary deviations in pitch, roll, and yaw without (intentionally) changing your flight path: every time you bring the wings back level after the turbulence rolls them, you need a bit of rudder as well; every time you pull the nose back up after it drops, you need some right rudder as well; every time you push the nose back down, you need a bit of left rudder; every time the turbulence yaws the nose to the left your right, you need to add a bit of aileron to the rudder when you straighten it out again. etc.

If you don't do that, turbulence ends up seeming a lot worse than it is. For me, flying in turbulence feels a bit like tap-dancing in an old western with the villain shooting his revolver towards my feet.

.Sometimes, especially when flying slow, I use rudder when I don’t use ailerons
Perhaps worth rethinking, because the closer you are to the stall, the more dangerous a skidding turn becomes.
 
Not worth rethinking because I never turn with rudder. i use rudder sometimes to pick up a wing if flying slow. But, that doesn't happen much either.
 
I prefer to keep the centerline between my legs on T/O and landing. Then the nosewheel is not banging on the centerline lights.

That is what I tell my students as well, Aim for the Centerline to be right under your butt. But if you can keep the centerline between the main wheels you are doing good. At the moment I can think on only one runway in Idaho that has centerline lights:).

Brian
 
Hardly unique. Navions have had rudder interconnects since 1946. It's pretty easy to overpower, but means for most flight regimes you can leave your feet on the floor.
Mooneys too.

as a cfii I would have to see the pilot keep the ball in the center during all phases of flight aside from an intentional slip before I’d sign anything off. But you’re always free to seek another cfi. It doesn’t hurt my feelings.
 
Thanks for the replies all. I’m scheduled with a cfi next weekend for some IR stuff but I’ll bring this up also as something to chat about.
 
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