Right plane for my mission?

Jakl15

Jakl15

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Jakl
The wife and I are ready to purchase our first plane. We started out looking at RV7As but I quickly realized that isn't what she's interested in. She wants to travel, and yes the RV7A can do that, but not practically for a 1000 mile trip with luggage or a 500 mile trip with our dogs, so the Vans is out.

Budget is under $90,000. We're looking to do some cross country, mostly in the 300-500nm range, but the possibility for the occasional (I.e. twice a year) 900nm flight. Two people (360lbs total) with luggage and our dogs for the long flights. And decent space in the luggage area if we wanted to take our snowboards or golf clubs. Not really looking for a turbo since most of our trips will be less than 500nm. We want something that has the ability of carrying 4 comfortably on some of the shorter trips with fuel at the tabs and light luggage. Speed is definitely a priority, however.

Personally I have about 400TT and working on my instrument rating. We're obviously looking for something decently fast so a Cherokee 180 or C172 is out.

Retractable gear is definitely not or of the question. Planes we've considered so far are:
PA-24-260B or C
33 Bonanza or Debonair
35 Bonanza
182RG
C210
M20F or newer (prefer a J)

Thoughts? Also I'm 6'4" so that could be an issue. I've heard mooneys are cramped but can be good for tall pilots.
 
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It's hard to beat a 182, they are pretty good at everything, not the best in most categories, but good in all of them. :D
130-135 knots, 12+/- GPH, stable, roomy, good short field if you need that, good useful load, true 4 seater with partial fuel. Good market activity, lots being bought and sold, anyone can work on them, no big gotchas that I know of. ;)
 
Jakl15 said:
The wife and I are ready to purchase our first plane. We started out looking at RV7As but I quickly realized that isn't what she's interested in. She wants to travel, and yes the RV7A can do that, but not practically for a 1000 mile trip with luggage or a 500 mile trip with our dogs, so the Vans is out.

We're looking to do some cross country, mostly in the 300-500nm range, but the possibility for the occasional (I.e. twice a year) 900nm flight. Two people (360lbs total) with luggage and our dogs for the long flights. And decent space in the luggage area if we wanted to take our snowboards or golf clubs. Not really looking for a turbo since most of our trips will be less than 500nm. We want something that has the ability of carrying 4 comfortably on some of the shorter trips with fuel at the tabs and light luggage.

Personally I have about 400TT and working on my instrument rating. We're obviously looking for something decently fast so a Cherokee 180 or C172 is out.

Retractable gear is definitely not or of the question. Planes we've considered so far are:
PA-24-260B or C
33 Bonanza or Debonair
35 Bonanza
182RG
C210
M20F or newer (prefer a J)

Thoughts? Also I'm 6'4" so that could be an issue. I've heard mooneys are cramped but can be good for tall pilots.
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Mooneys can be a problem for shorter pilots, you will love it (except getting in and out, it's like getting out of a bean bag chair because you sit low). You might want to look for a Mooney with the fold down rear seat (standard on later M20Js), this allows more room for large luggage items.
With full tanks you will be able to carry around 650lbs, and a 900nm range.
 
Have to go with the 182, would probably fit your mission. Welcome to the board.
 
Cardinal retractable - 177rg?

It'll carry a lot (though not as much as the 182), and it's better looking, more responsive, easier to get in and out of, burns less gas and has much better visibility. It's also faster than any 182 I've flown, though I haven't flown the 182rg.
 
Juristo said:
Cardinal retractable - 177rg?

It'll carry a lot (though not as much as the 182), and it's better looking, more responsive, easier to get in and out of, burns less gas and has much better visibility. It's also faster than any 182 I've flown, though I haven't flown the 182rg.
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Speed is a priority, especially considering the longer trips (500-1000nm). Even a 182RG is a bit on the slow end of the spectrum, especially for the price.
 
What is your budget? How about an Rv-10? It will cost more up front but be cheaper to maintain and/or upgrade

Keith
 
The best value you're going to find on the market presently is going to be an S or V 35 Bonanza, personally I think the S is best of breed. If you don't try to find the cheapest one, you'll find plenty of well cared for and nicely upgraded/equipped ones.

Comfort at 6'4 is different between makes depending on if you are long legged or long torso, but I know tall guys who are comfortable in their Bonanzas.
 
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kmacht said:
What is your budget? How about an Rv-10? It will cost more up front but be cheaper to maintain and/or upgrade

Keith
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Under 90k. 10s are out as they easily reach up to 200k.

Henning said:
The best value you're going to find on the market presently is going to be an S or V 35 Bonanza, personally I think the S is best of breed. If you don't try to find the cheapest one, you'll find plenty of well cared for and nicely upgraded/equipped ones.
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I've been eyeing those closely.
 
Jakl15 said:
Under 90k. 10s are out as they easily reach up to 200k.



I've been eyeing those closely.
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Yeah, nice S-35s are available for under $90k, you see them in the $70k range for what 10 years ago would have been $150k.
 
I will speak up for the Comanche, but I am biased. I picked it over Bonanzas because I don't care for the V tail's yaw instability in turbulence. One of the few times I have been seriously airsick is in the back of a V tail Bonanzas. Straight tails are better, but still have some of it. In smooth air, they are very nice flying aircraft, however.

I like that may of the Comanches have an updated panel in a standard configuration. I like that they have Lycoming engines. I like that I can remove the back seats on my C model and fly across the country with my dog curled up back there. I am long legged, and like that I can get the seat back a long way if I am not worried about rear seat leg room. I like that you are not shoulder to shoulder with the person next to you. I like that they are very long ranged and very efficient at the higher altitudes where it is smooth and cool in the summer. I like that it has a very strong airframe.
 
How fast so you want to get there?

My Archer will cruise fire walled at 129 knots and has 1k useful load. Burns about 10-11 at 9500 at that speed.

I normally pull it back to about 120 and burn about 9 gal an hour on longer trips. With one gas stop, the longest I flew was home from South Georgia to Little Rock in half a day.

You might be able to get snowboards in, but how bout just rent them when you get there?
 
I'll echo the call for the s35. Get one with tip tanks and an autopilot. Ignore the wag comments - only applies to Bo pilots that put their feet on the floor after takeoff and the tips will help. (Every short body longer/low wing I've flow has had some wag.)

Your mission is more aggressive than mine and I must say that I could do this in my -35 with a little patience. However, you should get somewhere around 170kts in the s35. The speed and feel of the Bo is a good match for this mission. The mooney would be another good option. The Bo will likely be cheaper right now in the market.

Personally, I would just ask a few folks here or get a broker (I used one) to take some rides in a few of the models you've posted. I thought I would be a mooney guy, but the old vtail just said "pick me!" - who knew.
 
500 mile non-stop @135 kts is 3.7 hours, @150 kts it's 3.33 hours, @160 kts it's still 3.125 hours. So the difference may not be as great as you think, one thing to consider is range vs payload. If you go faster but need a fuel stop, you will take longer in the faster airplane. :D
1000 mile trips are basically two 500 milers in a piston single, nobody wants to sit in a small plane for 6-7 hours, especially spouses and kids. :D


Jakl15 said:
Speed is a priority, especially considering the longer trips (500-1000nm). Even a 182RG is a bit on the slow end of the spectrum, especially for the price.
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N747JB said:
500 mile non-stop @135 kts is 3.7 hours, @150 kts it's 3.33 hours, @160 kts it's still 3.125 hours. So the difference may not be as great as you think, one thing to consider is range vs payload. If you go faster but need a fuel stop, you will take longer in the faster airplane. :D
1000 mile trips are basically two 500 milers in a piston single, nobody wants to sit in a small plane for 6-7 hours, especially spouses and kids. :D
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Very true, but a 182RG makes about the same burn as a 35 Bo, has the same useful load roughly but is 40kts slower. If it were 40 kts cheaper I'd be all for it but the fact that it's just about the same price makes it a poor choice IMHO
 
Unit74 said:
How fast so you want to get there?

My Archer will cruise fire walled at 129 knots and has 1k useful load. Burns about 10-11 at 9500 at that speed.

I normally pull it back to about 120 and burn about 9 gal an hour on longer trips. With one gas stop, the longest I flew was home from South Georgia to Little Rock in half a day.

You might be able to get snowboards in, but how bout just rent them when you get there?
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How are "firewalled" and "cruise" used in the same sentence? Cruise is at MOST 2500, probably less. I flew an Archer last weekend and it was painfully slow and wildly underpowered. Took me forever to get to 8.5k, and took an enormous takeoff roll for 2 pax and full tanks.

We both are avid snowboarders and enjoy our own. The rentals are mostly junk so if we're buying a plane we're going to include it in our mission.
 
N747JB said:
500 mile non-stop @135 kts is 3.7 hours, @150 kts it's 3.33 hours, @160 kts it's still 3.125 hours. So the difference may not be as great as you think, one thing to consider is range vs payload. If you go faster but need a fuel stop, you will take longer in the faster airplane. :D
1000 mile trips are basically two 500 milers in a piston single, nobody wants to sit in a small plane for 6-7 hours, especially spouses and kids. :D
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I completely agree, I have no interest in flying 6 hours nonstop either. But 170 out of a Mooney makes it a 3hr trip, faster to altitude means less time in the climb from base and the refuel.
 
Jakl15 said:
I completely agree, I have no interest in flying 6 hours nonstop either. But 170 out of a Mooney makes it a 3hr trip, faster to altitude means less time in the climb from base and the refuel.
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Plus the Mooney is the most fuel efficient of bunch if you don't like spending money on avgas.
 
Jakl15 said:
I completely agree, I have no interest in flying 6 hours nonstop either. But 170 out of a Mooney makes it a 3hr trip, faster to altitude means less time in the climb from base and the refuel.
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Faster is always faster, but if you need 4 seats very often, make sure your rear seat passengers are comfortable in whatever you buy. ;)
The great thing about airplanes is they are all compromises, speed vs fuel burn vs useful load vs cabin comfort vs price vs cost of ownership etc. None are perfect, but just like a spouse, you have to find the one you can live with and afford! :D
It would be a good idea to go look at a couple for sale locally, even if you aren't looking at that particular plane, you can sit inside and see how they fit you and your wife. :D
 
N747JB said:
Faster is always faster, but if you need 4 seats very often, make sure your rear seat passengers are comfortable in whatever you buy. ;)
The great thing about airplanes is they are all compromises, speed vs fuel burn vs useful load vs cabin comfort vs price vs cost of ownership etc. None are perfect, but just like a spouse, you have to find the one you can live with and afford! :D
It would be a good idea to go look at a couple for sale locally, even if you aren't looking at that particular plane, you can sit inside and see how they fit you and your wife. :D
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His rear passengers are dogs, so I'm sure they will be fine in any plane. For an occasional site seeing trip, his friends can be a little uncomfortable.
About the wife thing, definitely bring her along, also, has she flown with you yet, some people don't take well to small planes, take her on $100 hamburger trip before you do anything else.
 
I presume since a RV7 is out so would a Lancair 360?

EDIT: Sorry just reread your post and saw you wanted snowboards and such yes a 360 is out.
 
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Jakl15 said:
How are "firewalled" and "cruise" used in the same sentence? Cruise is at MOST 2500, probably less. I flew an Archer last weekend and it was painfully slow and wildly underpowered. Took me forever to get to 8.5k, and took an enormous takeoff roll for 2 pax and full tanks.

We both are avid snowboarders and enjoy our own. The rentals are mostly junk so if we're buying a plane we're going to include it in our mission.
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Were you dragging an anchor off the rear tie down hook or did you have a rag stuffed in the air box? Im Confused.....:dunno:

I CRUISE at whatever speed I want. Yesterday I CRUISED at 100 kts just cuz I had no real hurry. My last trip to Dallas I CRUISED at full throttle at 129 kts cuz I had a dinner date. Cruise is whatever speed you choose to drive your plane at, not some stat in a POH.

My Archer will climb just under 1k a min. with full fuel, my wife a couple small kids and 40 lbs of baggage. If that's not good enough for your needs......Well...ok then.

My Mx and I went up for a bite to eat a few weeks ago and he has a 172m. When we were done, he asked if it was for sale as he only wished his 172 could do that.

Compared to a 182, about the only thing it has over my Archer is about 10 knots and more shoulder room. But MX is more and the fuel burn on the 182 is why I went with this poor archer. Just more bang for the buck.

Sorry to suggest such a slow painfully pitiful aircraft for such a high roller as your self though. It's clear now you want a $250k bird on a EBT card budget.:yes:
 
Unit74 said:
Were you dragging an anchor off the rear tie down hook or did you have a rag stuffed in the air box? Im Confused.....:dunno:

I CRUISE at whatever speed I want. Yesterday I CRUISED at 100 kts just cuz I had no real hurry. My last trip to Dallas I CRUISED at full throttle at 129 kts cuz I had a dinner date. Cruise is whatever speed you choose to drive your plane at, not some stat in a POH.

My Archer will climb just under 1k a min. with full fuel, my wife a couple small kids and 40 lbs of baggage. If that's not good enough for your needs......Well...ok then.

My Mx and I went up for a bite to eat a few weeks ago and he has a 172m. When we were done, he asked if it was for sale as he only wished his 172 could do that.

Compared to a 182, about the only thing it has over my Archer is about 10 knots and more shoulder room. But MX is more and the fuel burn on the 182 is why I went with this poor archer. Just more bang for the buck.

Sorry to suggest such a slow painfully pitiful aircraft for such a high roller as your self though. It's clear now you want a $250k bird on a EBT card budget.:yes:
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You can buy a S-35 Bonanza for the same price as an Archer II.
 
teejayevans said:
?...
About the wife thing, definitely bring her along, also, has she flown with you yet, some people don't take well to small planes, take her on $100 hamburger trip before you do anything else.
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Can't stress this one enough. The reason I have a -35 instead of an s35 is my wife isn't "into" flying. So this is my hamburger runner and gives me the ability to see my elderly mom (500nm trip). Even so, my wife did go for the test flight and approved by saying "it's cute". When the checks start rolling out, best to have her on board...

Go fly a mooney and a 4 seat Bo. Buy the one that makes you smile because life is short!
 
True.... But the insurance will be 2.5 times more and annuals $500-$800 more. Factoring total cost per hour, it's gonna widen that gap.

For what it's worth, I am looking at a slick single plane in the 200kt range in the next couple years. Right now, I have a Columbia 300 in the back of my head or an RV 10. For now though, I'll meander along in my painfully slow Archer II.
 
brian];1548904 said:
Can't stress this one enough. The reason I have a -35 instead of an s35 is my wife isn't "into" flying. So this is my hamburger runner and gives me the ability to see my elderly mom (500nm trip). Even so, my wife did go for the test flight and approved by saying "it's cute". When the checks start rolling out, best to have her on board...

Go fly a mooney and a 4 seat Bo. Buy the one that makes you smile because life is short!
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We need to get together and swap an hour of time. I'd love to see how your V tail handles and you can see what your missing in an Archer.:yes:
 
Unit74 said:
We need to get together and swap an hour of time. I'd love to see how your V tail handles and you can see what your missing in an Archer.:yes:
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Hey, I'll be cooking eggs next Saturday at 4m3 (I thought it was this weekend, but is the 13th). Come on by 8 to 10 am...

I'm weird, if it has wings, I like it. Tried to buy a piper 140 last year and found my current project. I won't win any speed or beauty awards right now, but I'm always for swapping rides :D
 
Based strictly on what I have read (I only have experience in an F33 Bo), I think you would be happier with the Bonanza.
 
If you can up your budget a little, you can get a nice used Cirrus. They have great speed and comfort for cross country trips. You can find some for $100K.
 
Hard to beat a PA-24
 
brian];1548913 said:
Hey, I'll be cooking eggs next Saturday at 4m3 (I thought it was this weekend, but is the 13th). Come on by 8 to 10 am...

I'm weird, if it has wings, I like it. Tried to buy a piper 140 last year and found my current project. I won't win any speed or beauty awards right now, but I'm always for swapping rides :D
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I fly back from GA sat so that's not gonna work. I think I get in around 1pm ish...flying commercial.
 
Unit74 said:
Were you dragging an anchor off the rear tie down hook or did you have a rag stuffed in the air box? Im Confused.....:dunno:

I CRUISE at whatever speed I want. Yesterday I CRUISED at 100 kts just cuz I had no real hurry. My last trip to Dallas I CRUISED at full throttle at 129 kts cuz I had a dinner date. Cruise is whatever speed you choose to drive your plane at, not some stat in a POH.

My Archer will climb just under 1k a min. with full fuel, my wife a couple small kids and 40 lbs of baggage. If that's not good enough for your needs......Well...ok then.

My Mx and I went up for a bite to eat a few weeks ago and he has a 172m. When we were done, he asked if it was for sale as he only wished his 172 could do that.

Compared to a 182, about the only thing it has over my Archer is about 10 knots and more shoulder room. But MX is more and the fuel burn on the 182 is why I went with this poor archer. Just more bang for the buck.

Sorry to suggest such a slow painfully pitiful aircraft for such a high roller as your self though. It's clear now you want a $250k bird on a EBT card budget.:yes:
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Apologies if I offended you, I was just not wildly impressed with that plane. It was a rental and I'm not familiar with its history but anywhere from 5k to 8k it wold just barely indicate 111kts at 2500. Cruise for any plane I own isn't going to be WOT, I would like to keep my engine to the TBO. And being 6'4 225lbs, the shoulder room of the 182 is greatly appreciated. Thanks for your input, though!
 
Fly 'em all, and then buy the one your wife likes best.

Really.

All those planes will do about the same job for your mission, and beyond that it's all subjective. Since you're not going to have a happy life if you buy a plane your wife doesn't like for those trips, take her out for a ride in each type and make her inputs a major part of your decision.
 
Jakl15 said:
Apologies if I offended you, I was just not wildly impressed with that plane. It was a rental and I'm not familiar with its history but anywhere from 5k to 8k it wold just barely indicate 111kts at 2500. Cruise for any plane I own isn't going to be WOT, I would like to keep my engine to the TBO. And being 6'4 225lbs, the shoulder room of the 182 is greatly appreciated. Thanks for your input, though!
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An Archer has an O-360 Lycoming, it is as or more likely to make TBO and beyond run at redline., just lean it properly and it's perfectly happy running anywhere in the green arcs. The only thing you can do to kill an O-360 is to let it sit.
 
brian];1548904 said:
Can't stress this one enough. The reason I have a -35 instead of an s35 is my wife isn't "into" flying. So this is my hamburger runner and gives me the ability to see my elderly mom (500nm trip). Even so, my wife did go for the test flight and approved by saying "it's cute". When the checks start rolling out, best to have her on board...

Go fly a mooney and a 4 seat Bo. Buy the one that makes you smile because life is short!
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I'm blessed with a wife that not only enjoys flying, but aspires to eventually get her PPL.
 
You need to go EAB Jakl. Preferably a Velocity. :D

An SE or an LW will fit your bill just fine except for the 4 adult requirement. I think you'll find that if you're looking to fly 4 adults, a Bo or a 182RG will fit the bill but no way you'll be able to put full fuel and bags with that.

Plenty of Velocitys for sale right now and an SE or LW with retracts will get you some serious performance. Over 1,000 mile range, 1000 lb useful load, 170 kt cruise, and a strong 6 G airframe. Obviously it'll look better than any of the aircraft you listed as well. Not to mention cheaper to operate annually.
 
Well if we're not sticking to his list, a real aviators and mans plane would be a Stinson :wink2:
 
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