Right of Way in Jump Zones

jesse said:
A couple of things, since I fly jumpers from time to time.

The first thing is that I'm required to be in contact with Lincoln Approach even though I'm dropping into a non-controlled airport outside their class C. Since there is only one functional COM radio this creates some challenges. I have to give LNK approach a 1 minute to jumpers away call and a jumpers away call. I do swap frequencies after I tell LNK approach and I repeat the same thing on CTAF but :
1.) I haven't been listening to CTAF prior to that so I don't really know who is down there.
2.) I'm looking for aircraft the entire time and I'm pretty good at seeing them

I then immediately switch back to LNK approach so there is no time that I'm monitoring after I announce my intentions. If someone thinks they're going to negotiate with me about my 1 minute to jumpers away it'll fall on deaf ears because I'm not listening after I say it. I'm too busy dealing with LNK Approach on another frequency and communicating with the sky divers and making corrections for them on the jump run.

We kick the jumpers out directly over-top the airport. Keep in midn that jumpers don't cover a lot of area it's a pretty isolated chunk of sky that they're falling in. If someone is in a normal traffic pattern they'll almost always be inside of you, at least at this airport.

At my drop zone the jumpers decide when they're going to jump. It's their ass and believe me they're looking for airplanes and don't want to hit one either. They scan the sky and go and they'll be on the ground in no time. So it's just not that likely they're going to jump into another airplane.

I am pretty familiar with their operation so I have no issue flying into the airport when they're jumping. I always scan teh sky and if they just kicked jumpers out I widen my pattern a bit and keep an eye out. My pattern almost never conflicts as long as I"m not trying to do a midfield crosswind when they're under canopy in the pattern.

Also keep in mind that most sane jumpers are going to be under canopy at about 3,000 AGL..and they're quite visible. You can see and avoid easily by the time they are at traffic pattern altitudes.

The larger concern is a cross country Bonanza pilot on auto-pilot reading his newspaper and sipping his coffee that has the airport programmed as a waypoint and is cruising at 7,000 AGL. If he's not talking to ATC and we don't spot him he isn't going to know that there are going to be 4 human bombs at 120 mph zipping by him.
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I always yield to the jump planes. They are on the clock, I'm usually just cruising around.

Having said that not being able to monitor 122.8 is a real problem for pilots not familiar with the airport or the jumping operations. There have been several close calls. I see this an a dangerous practice that is not going to end well. A radio that monitors 122.8 would be a nice piece of safety equipment, pretty cheap insurance.

Another thought I had is why even talk to Lincoln approach? You are not in "C". If you only have one radio wouldn't it make more sense to monitor the CTAF? :dunno:
 
Silvaire said:
There aren't going to be any jumpers in IMC conditions.
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That is simply untrue of some jump outfits. I know that they are not SUPPOSED to jump through clouds, but I have been in cloud or below an overcast or broken ceiling at, say, 7,000, in very close proximity to a jump airport (Smith Mountain Lake, VA) when I have heard "jumpers away from 11,000". Those same operators are now very close to my home airport in NC. That makes me uneasy, for I know that rules are being broken.

Wells
 
Get your expensive rich toys out of jumpers ways you spoiled cry babies.:rofl:
 
W. Stewart said:
That is simply untrue of some jump outfits. I know that they are not SUPPOSED to jump through clouds, but I have been in cloud or below an overcast or broken ceiling at, say, 7,000, in very close proximity to a jump airport (Smith Mountain Lake, VA) when I have heard "jumpers away from 11,000". Those same operators are now very close to my home airport in NC. That makes me uneasy, for I know that rules are being broken.

Wells
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:yeahthat:

I've been flying in layers and had jumpers go through 3 layers! That happened just a few weeks ago! I'm sure it is a rush crashing through clouds.
 
Great information about jump zones! Thanks for sharing.

Unfortunately, although neither jumpers nor pilots can tell the other what to do, it is often the situation that pilots control the politics of the airport -- and thus can make the skydive operation very difficult.

We have that situation occurring on the island right now. We have a fabulous jump operation, operated by a very conscientious young couple -- but two very powerful local pilots/hangar owners have decided they don't want such a thing happening at "their" airport. Old money, long term tenants -- you get the picture.

They're using every tactic in the book to force the couple out, from getting the city to ban them from using vehicles to transport jumpers from the beach (on the grounds that this makes them a "taxi" operation, subject to fees) to trying to buy their hangar out from under them.

I have NO idea why they are so ticked off, but it's sad.

Luckily, the husband is a stubborn and savvy guy who has beaten them back at every turn -- but the opposition is like a monster that keeps regenerating. You think they're dead, and then they hit you from another angle. :(
 
Jay Honeck said:
Unfortunately, although neither jumpers nor pilots can tell the other what to do, it is often the situation that pilots control the politics of the airport -- and thus can make the skydive operation very difficult.
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I've seen that happen more often in reverse. It happened at Sullivan MO when I was in college nearby. A friend of mine owned the FBO there and did a good business on transient fuel sales into and out of the st louis area. When the jump operation moved in, it ran off all the transient traffic. To add insult to injury they trucked in all their own fuel and bought nothing on the field. The jump operators killed off the fbo and pretty much turned the airport into their own private strip.
 
JHW said:
I've seen that happen more often in reverse. It happened at Sullivan MO when I was in college nearby. A friend of mine owned the FBO there and did a good business on transient fuel sales into and out of the st louis area. When the jump operation moved in, it ran off all the transient traffic. To add insult to injury they trucked in all their own fuel and bought nothing on the field. The jump operators killed off the fbo and pretty much turned the airport into their own private strip.
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But I'd bet it is funner place with the dz instead of transient ****ing place. There is a thread on purple about hangar restrictions coming down the pike and ruining fun, just remember all this is because we rely on uncle sam to pay foer our playgrounds. Share or buy your own airport.
 
ClimbnSink said:
But I'd bet it is funner place with the dz instead of transient ****ing place. There is a thread on purple about hangar restrictions coming down the pike and ruining fun, just remember all this is because we rely on uncle sam to pay foer our playgrounds. Share or buy your own airport.
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my definition of sharing would be that if you come in and run off all of a guy's customers, then at least buy your fuel from the guy.
 
JHW said:
my definition of sharing would be that if you come in and run off all of a guy's customers, then at least buy your fuel from the guy.
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Should airports be free markets where businesses can start and perish on their own or should airports have designated monarchies that must be defended from all business threat? Townie politics do more damage to airports/aviation then disruptive businesses.
 
I have contended with jump operations since the 1960's at my home field.

I will say that any jump plane that has just one Com radio and is trying to switch frequencies between ATC and the airport unicom without being able to monitor both continuously before he drops a load of 180 pound hammers, the jump pilot will be at fault if there is a collision - that is reckless and careless.
I will say that most jump pilots are careful - just not all.
I will say that most jumpers are nut cases - that includes all.
I will say that most pilots find jump operations to be stressful because you can't see them until it is too late and 99% of the time (my experience) the jump pilot does not answer your call.
It is the uncertainty that makes pilots anxious and eventually hostile.

Jumpers should be proactive.
First drop a smoke tracer under a streamer so it follows the wind going down same as the jumpers to leave a marker in the sky for pilots to see.
Jumpers to wear a strong strobe on the helmet, or boots.
Jump pilots be required to answer all calls to them on unicom.

Would go a long ways towards making pilots less jumpy which will make them less likely to file complaints.
 
Good lord. If you think that is workable you are insane.
Dr. O said:
Jumpers should be proactive.
First drop a smoke tracer under a streamer so it follows the wind going down same as the jumpers to leave a marker in the sky for pilots to see.
Jumpers to wear a strong strobe on the helmet, or boots.
Jump pilots be required to answer all calls to them on unicom.

Would go a long ways towards making pilots less jumpy which will make them less likely to file complaints.
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Ron Levy said:
Far less than that from "jumpers away" to "all jumpers on deck," even on a jump from 14,000 or so. So I'm with you -- if you hear the calls, just stay out until you hear "jumpers on deck." If you're already in when you hear it, communicate with the jump pilot so nobody gets hurt.
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Not necessarily a safe assumption, especially when the conditions are such you can climb on your chute. I used to pop chute at 11,000 over Grandview OK on a summer day and I could keep in the air for over an hour thermaling. Others liked free fall, I thought it was a waste of money, diving is way cheaper and I can be 'weightless' for hours. Flying the chute I loved though, nothing closer to being a bird I've found.
 
Geico266 said:
Having said that not being able to monitor 122.8 is a real problem for pilots not familiar with the airport or the jumping operations. \
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And how does that help when the jump plane is on 123.0?
 
Jumpers under canopy isn't hard to spot. They don't move too quickly and they are fairly visible. It's the meat bombs that are the scary part. I've watched them come out of the back of the plane and they are hard to follow even when I am expecting them. Fortunately, that phase lasts only about a minute and I will avoid the vicinity while that is going on.

Of course, I think more jumpers have been skewered by their own (or other) jump planes than airplanes that have wandered into the airport area. Had one just a year or so ago at Orange.
 
Dr. O said:
I have contended with jump operations since the 1960's at my home field.

I will say that any jump plane that has just one Com radio and is trying to switch frequencies between ATC and the airport unicom without being able to monitor both continuously before he drops a load of 180 pound hammers, the jump pilot will be at fault if there is a collision - that is reckless and careless.
I will say that most jump pilots are careful - just not all.
I will say that most jumpers are nut cases - that includes all.
I will say that most pilots find jump operations to be stressful because you can't see them until it is too late and 99% of the time (my experience) the jump pilot does not answer your call.
It is the uncertainty that makes pilots anxious and eventually hostile.

Jumpers should be proactive.
First drop a smoke tracer under a streamer so it follows the wind going down same as the jumpers to leave a marker in the sky for pilots to see.
Jumpers to wear a strong strobe on the helmet, or boots.
Jump pilots be required to answer all calls to them on unicom.

Would go a long ways towards making pilots less jumpy which will make them less likely to file complaints.
Click to expand...

I like the strobe idea, although I'm not sure how much it will help. Until they're under canopy, I still don't think it will be likely to spot a meat bomb. They're just too small, and too fast.
 
Geico266 said:
I always yield to the jump planes. They are on the clock, I'm usually just cruising around.

Having said that not being able to monitor 122.8 is a real problem for pilots not familiar with the airport or the jumping operations. There have been several close calls. I see this an a dangerous practice that is not going to end well. A radio that monitors 122.8 would be a nice piece of safety equipment, pretty cheap insurance.
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I agree. It is a real problem.

Geico266 said:
Another thought I had is why even talk to Lincoln approach? You are not in "C". If you only have one radio wouldn't it make more sense to monitor the CTAF? :dunno:
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Required per the LOA w/ the FAA to coordinate with LNK approach. I'm talking to Lincoln approach by the time I go through 3,000 MSL.
 
i usually just stay downwind of the airport if i know there are jump operations going on
 
jesse said:
I agree. It is a real problem.


Required per the LOA w/ the FAA to coordinate with LNK approach. I'm talking to Lincoln approach by the time I go through 3,000 MSL.
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The jump club is making money hand over fist. A new radio is certainly in their budget.
 
tonycondon said:
i usually just stay downwind of the airport if i know there are jump operations going on
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That might be the worsty place. If they have a malfunction and have to deploy their emergency chute they are gonna drift a long way. They can't control those.

We had a jumper deploy his emergency chute at 10,000'. He drifted a long, long way! Took them forever to find him. No cell phone.
 
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Geico266 said:
That might be the worsty place. If they have a malfunction and have to deploy their emergency chute they are gonna drift a long way. They can't control those.
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Actually they can control them, although the forward penetration speed might be lower, they're likely going to be descending at a faster rate under the reserve canopy. It's just not a significant factor.

They'll also be lower by the time they cut away from their main and get the reserve deployed.
 
Geico266 said:
That might be the worsty place. If they have a malfunction and have to deploy their emergency chute they are gonna drift a long way. They can't control those.
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That information is well over 20 years out of date.*sigh* Who filled the internet with old people?:lol:
 
Unless there is a CRW (canopy relative work) event going on, 99% of jumpers will be pulling at or below 5500'. In that case most all potential cutaways will land within a reasonable distance to the dropzone. Meaning the main parachute that was cutaway. The jumper will land back at the DZ unless the were too low to make it back after getting under their reserve but their position is likely to be upwind.

With that said, we had a jumper about 2 years ago that planned on doing a high pull with a few others (opened at 13K) that had a mal and chopped it at altitude. They went and looked for it quite a bit and didn't find it. Someone brought it to us a few months later and when we determined where they found it, it was approx 9 miles downwind.

Not to cause an additional tangent, but we do sometimes do high pull cross countries. These are typically coordinated with the regional ATC but the farthest I have exited and flown my canopy back to the DZ was 19 miles last year in Eloy, AZ. Granted the uppers were hauling that day...


Another point to something referenced in an earlier post: Yes we can control our direction, typical modern parachutes have between a 15-30 MPH forward speed depending on wing loading and a decent average rate of decent is 1000 ft/min.
 
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jesse said:
I agree. It is a real problem.


Required per the LOA w/ the FAA to coordinate with LNK approach. I'm talking to Lincoln approach by the time I go through 3,000 MSL.
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That's pretty standard at the DZs I've flown for, I'm pretty sure I read in the FARs that jump planes broadcast on the local ATC freq.
 
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