Retracting flaps on landing

fiftiesdean

fiftiesdean

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Dean
My touch & go to full stop ratio is very high right now as I practice, and the first thing I do after landing and having control of the plane on the ground, before giving power, is retract the flaps. I understand that retracting the flaps on a full stop, however, is supposed to be after leaving the active runway. I've been caught a few times, because of muscle memory, retracting my flaps as a I slow for a full stop. I've been warned to do it per the check list (for my check ride), but other than that, I really don't understand why I would have to wait. Is this even an issue, or am I opening a can of worms?
 
Retracting flaps at touchdown is an important tool for high performance STOL ops. Probably not important for calm air/big runway ops. The scale of what's correct covers all the ground in between.
 
fiftiesdean said:
My touch & go to full stop ratio is very high right now as I practice, and the first thing I do after landing and having control of the plane on the ground, before giving power, is retract the flaps. I understand that retracting the flaps on a full stop, however, is supposed to be after leaving the active runway. I've been caught a few times, because of muscle memory, retracting my flaps as a I slow for a full stop. I've been warned to do it per the check list (for my check ride), but other than that, I really don't understand why I would have to wait. Is this even an issue, or am I opening a can of worms?
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You are actually opening two cans of worms, touch and goes, and retracting flaps on the runway. Good luck! :D

IMHO, do whatever you are comfortable with and whatever works in the airplane you are flying.
 
Here's a flaps lesson for you. Probably theoretical for most guys. Not for me.

A) my C180's shortest takeoff potential is with full flaps. The forward yoke pressure required when using conventional trim settings is quite strong but the ground roll is crazy short. Most high performance ops are started with 20* flaps and more flap is pulled when adequate speed is reached.

b) a great drill in a taildragger is to do a wheel landing using full flaps and hold the tail up on rollout. Add just enough throttle to keep it up as you go down the runway. Now retract the flaps. The tail will drop like a rock.

C) converse to B above, do a standard one or two notch high speed taxi to simulate a takeoff roll. Get the tail up but don't fly quite yet (reduce power to maintain contact with the ground in a tail up attitude). Now pull 30-40* flaps. You'll be flying without touching the power. Reverse engineer that and you tell me what you want to do at touchdown after a bumpy approach in nasty winds.

Full flap takeoffs don't give you any safety margin in your engine coughs on takeoff so be careful if you use them but in some conditions you need all the magic you can conjur up to make it safely over an obstacle or out of the soft gravel or mud. Flaps are a great tool when guys know how to use them. Including rapid retraction to keep it on the ground. I know guys who fly electric flap nose draggers who flip the flap switch to full up just prior to touchdown. It's a worthwhile technique to solidly park a tricycle gear airplane on a short strip.
 
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Depends on the plane.

In a plane with manual flaps - always. In a plane with a flap switch, nope.
 
Perhaps the warning you're receiving is to not confuse a standard full stop landing with a short field landing. They're two different things and unless you've briefed the short field landing, you're mixing techniques a little bit.

On a short field landing, your flap retraction is part of the landing. For a standard landing, your flap retraction should really be reserved as a task to be completed once clear of the runway as part of your after-landing checklist. In this scenario, your priority should be steering the plane and watching out for traffic or runway incursions. I think that's the distinction you want to make if you're looking to be a particularly precise pilot.
 
This will ruin your brain trying to consider. You retract flaps while on the runway a million times while you're doing touch and goes during training. But then someone tells you "omg omg never ever retract flaps on the runway!!!"

If it is ok and safe while doing a T&G, how prey-tell is it all of a sudden unsafe while rolling out to a stop? It isn't. But it is. But you should wait. Or maybe it depends.

On an aircraft with electric flaps, where the switch latches to the up position, it is really of no consequence. My hand is on the throttle already, flipping that switch up is about 2 inches away. It takes no effort or thought. And there is no retractable gear to screw up. If that's all you fly, then really, it is of no consequence now or later.

A johnson bar requires a little more thought and movement. A switch that doesn't latch up requires more thought and movement. Moving between different aircraft that have different configurations, especially retractable gear, could ruin your day.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
cause one day.....it won't be the flaps that will be retracting.:yikes::goofy:
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....and the flap handle is round, and the gear handle is flat, and the squat switch is not working....

Has anyone ever seen a plane on the ground actually lift the gear up?

I have never mistaken the flat flap handle for a round gear handle in a little over 10,000 hours of flying.

Every situation is different.

Now for the checkride, do as the examiner likes to see and use the check list.
 
Zeldman said:
....and the flap handle is round, and the gear handle is flat, and the squat switch is not working....

Has anyone ever seen a plane on the ground actually lift the gear up?

I have never mistaken the flat flap handle for a round gear handle in a little over 10,000 hours of flying.

Every situation is different.

Now for the checkride, do as the examiner likes to see and use the check list.
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Happened to a poster on here.

Oh, and my gear handle isn't round, or flat. It's a toggle switch.
 
Stewartb said:
Full flap takeoffs don't give you any safety margin in your engine coughs on takeoff so be careful if you use them but in some conditions you need all the magic you can conjur up to make it safely over an obstacle or out of the soft gravel or mud.
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Full flap takeoffs are NOT APPROVED on common training aircraft, and can kill in a 152. Many aircraft will not climb with full flaps, or will climb lethargically, particularly on a hot day.

Full power and full flap (e.g., the start of a go-around) requires a fair amount of upper body strength to avoid a trim stall, in a 182.

This is a very risky technique. There is usually an "optimal" flap setting well short of full, that is much safer. E.g., 20 deg flap on a 182. The plane will practically leap off the runway after a very short run, for a soft field takeoff.
 
fiftiesdean said:
right, but on touch and goes you retract flaps on planes with gear, right?
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Read your POH. Cessna singles require retracting flaps to 20 deg immediately in a go around, not waiting for positive rate of climb ('cause you may not get it, and you'll simultaneously get a lot of pitch-up moment).

Touch'n'goes in a retract are considered to be risky maneuvers, and some organizations (and insurance companies) ban them. Ball it up on a T&G and you may be SOL.
 
MAKG1 said:
Full flap takeoffs are NOT APPROVED on common training aircraft, and can kill in a 152. Many aircraft will not climb with full flaps, or will climb lethargically, particularly on a hot day.

Full power and full flap (e.g., the start of a go-around) requires a fair amount of upper body strength to avoid a trim stall, in a 182.

This is a very risky technique. There is usually an "optimal" flap setting well short of full, that is much safer. E.g., 20 deg flap on a 182. The plane will practically leap off the runway after a very short run, for a soft field takeoff.
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And that's why guys learning to fly high performance airplanes in high performance conditions should get instruction from high performance instructors. No offense intended. The guy that had me demonstrate full flap takeoffs was the president of the Alaska Aviation Safety Foundation and had 40,000+ hours logged including a few in the 180 he'd owned for more than 40 years. I qualified my comments to my airplane. They're equally valid for Supercubs or appropriately modified variants, too. Mastery of your airplane requires exploring your airplane.
 
Zeldman said:
....and the flap handle is round, and the gear handle is flat, and the squat switch is not working....

Has anyone ever seen a plane on the ground actually lift the gear up?

I have never mistaken the flat flap handle for a round gear handle in a little over 10,000 hours of flying.

Every situation is different.

Now for the checkride, do as the examiner likes to see and use the check list.
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I've never done it, it does happen. My plane, some years back before I owned it, did have a...cough, cough....nose gear collapse.

So, how'z dat happen? :yikes:

I do know.....if I'm able to maintain my discipline.....it won't be happening to me.:no:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I've never done it, it does happen. My plane, some years back before I owned it, did have a...cough, cough....nose gear collapse.

So, how'z dat happen? :yikes:

I do know.....if I'm able to maintain my discipline.....it won't be happening to me.:no:
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This happened while the plane was sitting still, engine running? And someone raised the gear handle?

Most collapsed nose gear I have seen was due to something broke in the gear itself, the downlock not working or hitting something a little too big, all while moving. I have seen the mains, one or both collapse while landing because the J lock didn't work or the spar was broken, or hit something.

I have never seen or heard of a plane sitting still and the gear raises when the gear handle is raised. I jokingly questioned my instructor about the gear going up on the ground, and he just reached over and raised the gear handle on the Piper Seminole, not a thing happened, no gear unsafe light, no hydraulic pump noise, nothing.

And yes, discipline is just part of knowing your aircraft and your personal limitations. I have 1000s of hours on gravel strips, and not raising flaps on the roll out will eventually ensure destroyed flaps, on both fixed and retracts.
 
Zeldman said:
....and the flap handle is round, and the gear handle is flat, and the squat switch is not working....

Has anyone ever seen a plane on the ground actually lift the gear up?

I have never mistaken the flat flap handle for a round gear handle in a little over 10,000 hours of flying.

Every situation is different.

Now for the checkride, do as the examiner likes to see and use the check list.
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personally seen it happen? no

jack the plane up off the runway after it happened? several. people do it all the time. Young, old, military, civilian, black, white, green, doesn't matter. ANYONE who touches the flap handle while the plane is moving is at risk of grabbing the gear instead.
 
JHW said:
ANYONE who touches the flap handle while the plane is moving is at risk of grabbing the gear instead.
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Really? Anyone? My flap handle is a Johnson bar which is out in the open, and my gear switch is behind the control wheel. Am I really going to confuse the two? Two different types of controls, not even close to each other.

That's like saying I'm going to confuse my overhead trim with the mixture control.
 
^ looks like the truncate software is malfunctioning
 
EdFred said:
Really? Anyone? My flap handle is a Johnson bar which is out in the open, and my gear switch is behind the control wheel. Am I really going to confuse the two? Two different types of controls, not even close to each other.

That's like saying I'm going to confuse my overhead trim with the mixture control.
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yep. Everyone I've met who has done it said the exact same thing as you prior to the event.
 
JHW said:
yep. Everyone I've met who has done it said the exact same thing as you prior to the event.
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Flap switch and gear switch I can see. Johnson bar that's easily accessible vs gear switch that is not, no way, no how.. Do they also use their radio to try and open the door?
 
EdFred said:
Flap switch and gear switch I can see. Johnson bar that's easily accessible vs gear switch that is not, no way, no how.. Do they also use their radio to try and open the door?
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I guess some people really can't walk and chew gum at the same time...
 
Zeldman said:
I guess some people really can't walk and chew gum at the same time...
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Yep. In every case i can think of, the people it happens to ridicule those people right up to the point that they become one of them.

we are all infallible, right up to the point that we're not
 
JHW said:
personally seen it happen? no

jack the plane up off the runway after it happened? several. people do it all the time. Young, old, military, civilian, black, white, green, doesn't matter. ANYONE who touches the flap handle while the plane is moving is at risk of grabbing the gear instead.
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Does this mean in the aviation world that no one ever checks the squat switches on the landing gear?

And I was talking about a plane sitting dead still, engine running, and then the gear switched is raised, and the gear actually goes up into the well. I have never seen or even heard of this.

I am not talking about a gear up landing, that is different entirely.
 
Zeldman said:
Does this mean in the aviation world that no one ever checks the squat switches on the landing gear?

And I was talking about a plane sitting dead still, engine running, and then the gear switched is raised, and the gear actually goes up into the well. I have never seen or even heard of this.

I am not talking about a gear up landing, that is different entirely.
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I'm talking about rolling down the runway or taxiway. And no, squat switches aren't guaranteed to work when you are going over bumps. You can come up with all sorts of rationalizations why it shouldn't happen, but the fact is that it does happen, and often. A quick visit to any airplane salvage yard will convince you of that. The additional unfortunate fact is that what starts as light damage is usually made much much worse by uninformed attempts to raise the plane back onto its wheels.
 
I think we should keep in mind that what might be useful technique in one type of airplane and operation isn't necessarily proper in another type of airplane and operation.
 
JHW said:
Yep. In every case i can think of, the people it happens to ridicule those people right up to the point that they become one of them.

We are all infallible, right up to the point that we're not
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_qHBzH2nw

I wonder just how cost effective that touch and go was? :goofy:

If you were to try and change configurations during the landing rollout in my airplane I'd break your fingers. Of course there are situations where you'd want to dump the flaps, but if it's one of your SOPs you really need to rethink the way you do things.
 
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JHW said:
Yep. In every case i can think of, the people it happens to ridicule those people right up to the point that they become one of them.

we are all infallible, right up to the point that we're not
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So you hang out with people that don't know the difference between a Johnson Bar and a toggle switch. You need to hang out with a better class of people.
 
Anyone beside me unable to see a durn thing that the new EdFred posts?

If he writes anything significant, please quote it so that I can see it. His new screen name goes right off the edge, I can only suppose that some writing does exist out there somewhere . . .
 
Two questions:

1. Why would anyone raise the gear lever on a plane sitting still on the ground? (Or on the ground at any speed really)

2. If you've decided you need to dump the lift in order to make the performance for a landing runway why wouldn't you raise the flaps? The numbers say you need to, right? So why wouldn't you? Is going off the runway better?
 
Captain said:
Two questions:

1. Why would anyone raise the gear lever on a plane sitting still on the ground? (Or on the ground at any speed really)
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cause it feels like the right thing to do....at the moment. :yikes::hairraise::yikes:
 
The caution about not raising flaps while rolling on the runway is the desire to keep you from closing the runway by dropping the bird on it's belly right then and there.
It has nothing to do with the plane rolling versus standing still. Standing will do less damage to the airframe than rolling, obviously.
The reason for caution against doing the flaps while rolling is that most retractibles have a safety switch (squat switch) that will block the gear from retracting if there is weight on the gear. But if rolling fast enough, you might have enough lift on the wings to hold the the airframe up off the squat switch. Commanding a gear up under that condition will result in dropping the plane on the belly.

As far as the CFI flipping the gear switch to prove that nothing will happen when on the ground - the man is an idiot.
 
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