Retractable confidence

[brian]]

Especially when it is cold out, but even in the heat of summer: having flaps and gear up really changes the pitch attitude. Even at full idle you know something is not right. (I would expect a mooney to be pretty much like a bo when clean.)

When the gear comes down on mine, then you have the drag, pitch and "sound" of a landing. I hear just flaps without gear is the same. Not trying that - I'll take the guru's advice on that one.

But yea, I'm still worried that I will gear up the oldie. That would total it ...


GUMPS before the pattern.

GUMPS just as the gear actually comes down.

PUFS just as the flaps come down (base or turning final or the decision not to use flaps).

PUFS again on short final.

Then the weird feeling when you realize you forgot to pull the cowl flaps and then you redouble the effort to make sure the gear is down.

 

[acrophile]

Multiple times. Downwind, base, final.

Agreed, but we don't always turn to those legs. The tower might have you do a long straight-in approach, for example. Or if you're instructed to extend downwind for a few miles, you might want to keep the gear up until final (to maximize glide range in the event of engine failure). So there need to be redundant checks during these nonstandard landings as well. And a last check on short final is a crucial fail-safe measure.

 

[bikert]

I started out with a fixed gear aircraft and was so paranoid about gearing up that right from the beginning of flying a retractable gear plane I check it at least five times on final. It is almost part of my scan. Throughout final I touch the gear lever and say "gear is down" and check the three green lights. I do this at least five times. It is total overkill, yes, but it is difficult to imagine with this habit (obsession perhaps) how I can ever forget it.

 

[somorris]

I don't fly a retract for the same reason as the OP. Like Dave said, all it takes is a distraction. I have known (or known of) several outstanding pilots who, for some reason or another, forgot to put the gear down. At least one posts here sometimes. I don't care how many times you use GUMPS, it only takes one time when something big happens, you get distracted, and forget (or at least I know that could easily happen to me). I admire all of you who can fly retracts and KNOW you will never land gear up, but as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations I will stay with down and welded.

 

[brian]]

If you want to go fast, at some point the gear has to fold.

 

[somorris]

If you want to go fast, at some point the gear has to fold.

I started to say "Yeah, I know" but then thought about the Cessna TTX. However, I don't have the funds to finance a TTX since I didn't win the Powerball last week, so I will just keep poking along and try to stay out of the way .

 

[GRG55]

I don't fly a retract for the same reason as the OP. Like Dave said, all it takes is a distraction. I have known (or known of) several outstanding pilots who, for some reason or another, forgot to put the gear down. At least one posts here sometimes. I don't care how many times you use GUMPS, it only takes one time when something big happens, you get distracted, and forget (or at least I know that could easily happen to me). I admire all of you who can fly retracts and KNOW you will never land gear up, but as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations I will stay with down and welded.

About 15 years ago was on my way to OSH in my slow, welded gear single. Came in for landing late in the day at an intermediate stop at an uncontrolled mid-West airport. A Pilatus P-3 was ripping circuits. Tucked into downwind behind him figuring I should be able to land before he lapped me. Turning base I heard a Mayday call followed by "Runway XX closed". He had landed gear up.

Fortunately there was a cross wind runway. When I taxiied up to the FBO to refuel he told me the pilot of the P-3 was a local, a recently retired Northwest pilot with a gazillion hours in every sort of airplane except the Wright Flyer (or so it sounded). He had been doing circuits for almost an hour before the mishap. The only obvious distraction was me entering the circuit behind him...in a much slower airplane.

Stuff happens

 

[Palmpilot]

There's an old saying about gear-up landings: "There are those who have, and there are those who will." That's too fatalistic for my taste. I feel that it smacks of resignation, so I prefer to say "There are those who have, and there are those who might."

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Most of the items I have on my checklist are "killer" items such as boost pump, mixture, flaps, etc.

If you picked this up from my posts on here, I'm flattered.

If not, well, forget I mentioned it...

 

[flyingron]

If you want to go fast, at some point the gear has to fold.

That's not quite true. Some of the slick things like the Columbia will out speed most of the older retracts with the same HP.

 

[steingar]

There's an old saying about gear-up landings: "There are those who have, and there are those who will." That too fatalistic for my taste. I feel that it smacks of resignation, so I prefer to say "There are those who have, and there are those who might."

I kinda worry about that as well, but like the man said, my airplane won't slow down enough to deploy flaps if the gear isn't down.

While training to fly it I forgot everything. One landing I forgot BUMPS. I forgot to lean. We never did close the cowl flaps.

The one thing I never forgot was the gear. I LOVE my Mooney. The swing of that bar is really hard to forget, at least for me.

 

[rbridges]

That's not quite true. Some of the slick things like the Columbia will out speed most of the older retracts with the same HP.

Even the cirrus SR20 is in the same ballpark as my mooney. But for the price difference, I'll just tattoo GUMP on the back of my hand.

 

[James331]

I kinda worry about that as well, but like the man said, my airplane won't slow down enough to deploy flaps if the gear isn't down.

While training to fly it I forgot everything. One landing I forgot BUMPS. I forgot to lean. We never did close the cowl flaps.

The one thing I never forgot was the gear. I LOVE my Mooney. The swing of that bar is really hard to forget, at least for me.

Bah, I can get a PC12 to VFE without dumping gear, it's basic energy management, if you can't slow down to VFE in a single engine piston GA plane without dumping gear you need some additional training.

 

[Dav8or]

To all you confident Mooney drivers that are convinced a gear up won't happen to you because your plane needs the gear down to go slow enough to land, I have to ask- How come damn near half the Mooney fleet has landed on it's belly at least once in it's past if it's so hard to do?

The guys with the vintage Mooneys are particularly vulnerable (that means me too). These planes have a low gear extension speed of 120mph. Somehow we all manage to get down to 120mph without the use of the gear and most of us without any kind of speed brake. The flap extension speed is just at 105 mph. You only have to lose another 15 mph more to start getting those flaps in. Once the Mooney slows to flap speed, it flies just the same, gear up, or down. You absolutely can slow it to your usual "over the numbers" speed with no gear.

Didn't like my earlier distraction story, OK here's another.

You're on the 45 about to turn down wind, this is a place many drop the gear. Just before the turn, your baggage door pops open. On a Mooney, this is a big deal because they will often tear off and depart the plane. When it does, there is a chance it will hit the tail feathers and cause more damage... but they don't always come off.

A natural instinct for many pilots in a crisis, or brain overload, is to pull back a little bit on the yoke. It's your brain saying, give me altitude and keep me safe from the ground that will hurt me. It's not a lot, just a little, but the plane will slow and gain altitude.

Here comes abeam the numbers! There is a horn going off, and that baggage door is still banging back there. It hasn't come off yet and the wind is blowing around the cabin. Oh good! We can put some flaps in! In go the flaps.

The door is hanging in there and you think you may well escape serious expenses yet. You're about to turn final and you hear a horn. Your brain assumes it's the stall horn. So make sure all the flaps are in and you nose over a bit. Funny though, the ASI say's you're not that slow...

Anyhow on final, the numbers are coming up, the airspeed looks good, the baggage door is still there and it has finally shut up because it is now stuck in the up position. Again you hear the horn and this when you either figure it out, or you don't. Many get so fixated on just getting on the ground and fixing everything that they stop trouble shooting.

A funny thing if you ask the folks that fix the gear up damage, or if you ever look at those photos of planes on their belly- nobody ever forgets the flaps. They always come down and they always get wrecked. Oh yes you can slow a Mooney to landing speed with no gear and apparently it isn't all that hard to do as it is still commonly done.

Any airplane is vulnerable. We recently had a King Air 90 gear up here at Byron. It is a plane used for parachute jumping. What happened was, the plane was loaded with meat bombs and they were climbing out and they lost one engine. The pilot immediately configured the plane and headed back to the runway. Anyhow, in the excitement and fixation on saving the passengers, he forgot the gear... but not the flaps. So now we have a dead King Air sitting on the ramp on it's wheels, waiting for the insurance company to haul it away I guess, with one perfect prop and one bent up prop.

I'm with Richard. It's too fatalistic to just say "It's not a matter of it, but when" and "Those that have and those that will" but I also think that you have to remember even more than the GUMPS check, that you are vulnerable and fully capable of a gear up landing mistake. This way, when there is that little nagging voice in your head on that screwed up day asking, "What's that horn?" you will actually think of the gear.

If your mindset is, "I do GUMPS checks six times in the pattern, double on Sundays and besides it's really hard to land a Mooney without the gear down.", when the day comes, the confident part of your brain will override the doubting side of your brain and that horn becomes something you'll check out when you're on the ground. Oh and lights on a panel? Nobody looks at that stuff in crisis, particularly the single, itty bitty red light the vintage Mooney has.

I know I could gear up my plane. That's why I have to watch myself and question myself. Maybe it is because it was demonstrated to me how it is done, that I better understand how it happens. Kind of like how guys go to those chambers and experience hypoxia in a controlled environment, they then know what it's really like and take O2 more seriously.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

Get a vintage Mooney... and insurance. You'll be happy every day you get to fly.

 

[alfadog]

Lots of good advice here and I won't repeat it. One thing I was taught when I did my complex in a Arrow. Before landing, fully retard the throttle before advancing it to your landing setting. Develop the habit of doing that and listening for the gear horn. Never go just from cruise or descent power to landing power. Retard it all the way to idle. That'll give the gear horn a chance to sound if it's working at all. This is on top of all the other checks you do.

 

[rbridges]

To all you confident Mooney drivers that are convinced a gear up won't happen to you because your plane needs the gear down to go slow enough to land, I have to ask- How come damn near half the Mooney fleet has landed on it's belly at least once in it's past if it's so hard to do?

The guys with the vintage Mooneys are particularly vulnerable (that means me too). These planes have a low gear extension speed of 120mph. Somehow we all manage to get down to 120mph without the use of the gear and most of us without any kind of speed brake. The flap extension speed is just at 105 mph. You only have to lose another 15 mph more to start getting those flaps in. Once the Mooney slows to flap speed, it flies just the same, gear up, or down. You absolutely can slow it to your usual "over the numbers" speed with no gear.

Didn't like my earlier distraction story, OK here's another.

You're on the 45 about to turn down wind, this is a place many drop the gear. Just before the turn, your baggage door pops open. On a Mooney, this is a big deal because they will often tear off and depart the plane. When it does, there is a chance it will hit the tail feathers and cause more damage... but they don't always come off.

A natural instinct for many pilots in a crisis, or brain overload, is to pull back a little bit on the yoke. It's your brain saying, give me altitude and keep me safe from the ground that will hurt me. It's not a lot, just a little, but the plane will slow and gain altitude.

Here comes abeam the numbers! There is a horn going off, and that baggage door is still banging back there. It hasn't come off yet and the wind is blowing around the cabin. Oh good! We can put some flaps in! In go the flaps.

The door is hanging in there and you think you may well escape serious expenses yet. You're about to turn final and you hear a horn. Your brain assumes it's the stall horn. So make sure all the flaps are in and you nose over a bit. Funny though, the ASI say's you're not that slow...

Anyhow on final, the numbers are coming up, the airspeed looks good, the baggage door is still there and it has finally shut up because it is now stuck in the up position. Again you hear the horn and this when you either figure it out, or you don't. Many get so fixated on just getting on the ground and fixing everything that they stop trouble shooting.

A funny thing if you ask the folks that fix the gear up damage, or if you ever look at those photos of planes on their belly- nobody ever forgets the flaps. They always come down and they always get wrecked. Oh yes you can slow a Mooney to landing speed with no gear and apparently it isn't all that hard to do as it is still commonly done.

Any airplane is vulnerable. We recently had a King Air 90 gear up here at Byron. It is a plane used for parachute jumping. What happened was, the plane was loaded with meat bombs and they were climbing out and they lost one engine. The pilot immediately configured the plane and headed back to the runway. Anyhow, in the excitement and fixation on saving the passengers, he forgot the gear... but not the flaps. So now we have a dead King Air sitting on the ramp on it's wheels, waiting for the insurance company to haul it away I guess, with one perfect prop and one bent up prop.

I'm with Richard. It's too fatalistic to just say "It's not a matter of it, but when" and "Those that have and those that will" but I also think that you have to remember even more than the GUMPS check, that you are vulnerable and fully capable of a gear up landing mistake. This way, when there is that little nagging voice in your head on that screwed up day asking, "What's that horn?" you will actually think of the gear.

If your mindset is, "I do GUMPS checks six times in the pattern, double on Sundays and besides it's really hard to land a Mooney without the gear down.", when the day comes, the confident part of your brain will override the doubting side of your brain and that horn becomes something you'll check out when you're on the ground. Oh and lights on a panel? Nobody looks at that stuff in crisis, particularly the single, itty bitty red light the vintage Mooney has.

I know I could gear up my plane. That's why I have to watch myself and question myself. Maybe it is because it was demonstrated to me how it is done, that I better understand how it happens. Kind of like how guys go to those chambers and experience hypoxia in a controlled environment, they then know what it's really like and take O2 more seriously.

I agree. I know I'm just one distraction away from landing on the belly. My plane had a gear up in its second year of existence. My first CFII had a gear up in a mooney with a student. He said they were in the pattern when someone made an announcement of landing on the same runway. They spent time looking around for that plane and forgot to drop the gear.

 

[flyingron]

Get a vintage Mooney... and insurance. You'll be happy every day you get to fly.

Not that this is without peril. You still need proper training and proficiency. Those Mooneys have had people inadvertantly do a Jimmy Stewart on the ground (along with Navions though usually with Navions it's people coming out of maintenance and not checking the gear lever).

 

[Palmpilot]

Not that this is without peril. You still need proper training and proficiency. Those Mooneys have had people inadvertantly do a Jimmy Stewart on the ground (along with Navions though usually with Navions it's people coming out of maintenance and not checking the gear lever).

What did Jimmy Stewart do?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

What did Jimmy Stewart do?

wasn't he a famous golfer?

 

[acrophile]

There's an old saying about gear-up landings: "There are those who have, and there are those who will."

That's indeed an old saying, but is it accurate? Is there evidence that (almost) all--or even most--retractable pilots land gear-up at some point?

The dozen or more retractable pilots I know personally have literally centuries of combined flight experience, but zero gear-up landings. That's quite unlikely if most retractable pilots have at least one.

NASA receives an average of 60 ASRS reports per year of gear-up landings. So that's 3000 every 50 years, which is a generous guess of the average pilot's flying career span. There are probably at least as many retractable pilots as pilots with commercial certificates, hence more than 100,000. Hence only about 3% of retractable pilots ever report a gear-up landing to ASRS.

Of course, ASRS reports are voluntary, so gear-up landings may go unreported. But such landings tend to be conspicuous and--especially if due to pilot error--seem likely to be reported, to gain the ASRS immunity benefit. Even if only half of such landings are reported, only 6% of retractable pilots have such landings. Even if only 20% are reported, only 15% of retractable pilots have such landings.

 

[flyingron]

What did Jimmy Stewart do?

In the movie No Highway In the Sky, an engineer for the Royal Aircraft Establishment is convinced that the new airliner, the Reindeer, is due to suffer a catastrophic failure of the empennage. Unable to convince the pilots not to depart he runs forward and raises the landing gear while the plane is parked (apparently in addition to other issues, the Reindeer doesn't have squat switches either).

 

[flyingron]

wasn't he a famous golfer?

Nah, that was Bobby Bell.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Nah, that was Bobby Bell.

So it wasn't Heinrich Dorfmann, the aerospace engineer, in the Flight of the Phoenix?

 

[brian]]

That's not quite true. Some of the slick things like the Columbia will out speed most of the older retracts with the same HP.

Not too many turbine equipped aircraft I know of keep the gear hanging out...

But yea, if GA was growing like the internet, I wonder how many piston equipped aircraft would have folding gear.


Keep toying with the idea of a twin. Not many of them have fixed gear either. But that does raise a question: if you had known ice on a columbia or cirrus would you have to put boots on the pants? (That sounds weird.)

 

[flyingron]

Not too many turbine equipped aircraft I know of keep the gear hanging out...

Keep toying with the idea of a twin. Not many of them have fixed gear either

 

[brian]]

Ok, the two examples I was thinking about...

 

[petrolero]

If you buy an RG, you will become obsessive about that gear.

I had very little RG time when I bought mine. I was at about 180 hours PIC or 200ish total time when I bought it. I now have on the order of 250 hours and one instrument rating in the airplane. Doing the IR in my RG was a **tremendous** confidence builder because it forced me to develop a set of habits.

I will tell you that it's not about confidence for me, it's about nervousness in a sense. I know I have to remember to get that gear down. Knowing it's there still gives me just the right amount of anxiety. It makes me a bit OCD about checking the gear. As a result, I call it out loud multiple times in the pattern CCGUMPS... "carb heat on, cowl flaps closed, gear in transition -- got a wheel (left), got a front wheel (left mirror if it's day time), got another wheel (pax or right mirror), got a light -- gear is down" etc. I then confirm the gear is down a couple more times before landing - usually on each leg of the pattern or with each flap addition.

Also when I did my IR I drilled gear and 1 notch of flaps 2 miles from FAF (no vertical guidance) or when GS is one dot above me (ILS, LPV).

No one can say it will never happen to them unless they're retired from flying RGs.

But one thing to keep in mind is that virtually no one dies from an on-airport gear-up landing. I read a thing long ago where a guy reviewed on-airport gear-ups going back many decades and he found no fatalities. <citation needed>

 

[steingar]

I agree. I know I'm just one distraction away from landing on the belly. My plane had a gear up in its second year of existence. My first CFII had a gear up in a mooney with a student. He said they were in the pattern when someone made an announcement of landing on the same runway. They spent time looking around for that plane and forgot to drop the gear.

Must be me. I find it hard to believe I'd miss that swing. I guess because I had such a tough time mastering it the thing takes up some room in my emotional landscape.

 

[Palmpilot]

That's indeed an old saying, but is it accurate? Is there evidence that (almost) all--or even most--retractable pilots land gear-up at some point?

The dozen or more retractable pilots I know personally have literally centuries of combined flight experience, but zero gear-up landings. That's quite unlikely if most retractable pilots have at least one.

NASA receives an average of 60 ASRS reports per year of gear-up landings. So that's 3000 every 50 years, which is a generous guess of the average pilot's flying career span. There are probably at least as many retractable pilots as pilots with commercial certificates, hence more than 100,000. Hence only about 3% of retractable pilots ever report a gear-up landing to ASRS.

Of course, ASRS reports are voluntary, so gear-up landings may go unreported. But such landings tend to be conspicuous and--especially if due to pilot error--seem likely to be reported, to gain the ASRS immunity benefit. Even if only half of such landings are reported, only 6% of retractable pilots have such landings. Even if only 20% are reported, only 15% of retractable pilots have such landings.

Yep. Like I said, the old saying is too fatalistic.

 

[TWinter]

Seems like a gear up or near gear up either actually happens or comes darn close to happening to nearly everyone. Either way it usually only takes either to get GUMPS embedded in the brain. All you can do is hope you are on the side of only "Come close to happening" and not the more expensive and humbling "Happens" camp. I've experienced the "Comes Close"... I'm pretty sure I'll never forget (knock on wood). I still wish the stall horn and low manifold/gear horn were a separate sounding device. One early morning my AP calls and says if I can get my plane there quickly they can get my new strobes installed, it was early and I was in a hurry to get the plane dropped off. I needed to get back to the office. I was on landing approach with gear still up, horn sounding (thinking it was stall horn). Kept sinking and floating. Realizing I was running out of runway and still had not sat down, I'm thinking just landing long as I was a little fast and this was a short field. I decided to go around..looked at the gear to raise it and it was still up...After a sphincter pucker I realized what I had done and made a go around, landed uneventful. Landed and off to the men's room to clean my shorts.. The big guy upstairs was watching over me that day. I'll never, never forget that day. I guess I was in the "Comes close to happening" camp. I replay that in my mind every time I fly and get ready land. That memory and experience is better than a "Bitchin' Betty". That was over 6 yrs ago, but still as fresh as yesterday.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

wasn't he a famous golfer?

Probably thinking Payne Stewart. RIP

 

[flyingron]

Probably thinking Payne Stewart. RIP

That was a joke, son. As was my reference to (famed University of Minnesota Golden Gopher) Bobby Bell.

 

[Challenged]

Putting the gear up on my Sierra allows me to transition from "really slow" to "slow".

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Fearless Tower]

Unless your plane is flown by two pilots, I think you should be looking out the window as you approach and fly the pattern, not reading a checklist. Reviewing the landing checklist several miles out is a good idea, but while actually landing I think it's better to use a well-memorized and well-rehearsed flow ritual.

Additionally, I've found when I'm distracted that I'm more prone to skip a checklist item (or the checklist itself) than I am to forget a flow ritual.

This!

I am not against checklists, but single pilot, I have found the hard copy checklist can actually be a distraction. I have skipped more steps using the hard copy than using a flow. You start looking at the checklist and then look up/answer ATC/adjust trim..etc and next thing you know, you just skipped over 'landing gear down'.

 

[colojo]

This topic reminds me of this video. And it's a pilot with a mountain INSTRUCTOR on board!

 

[Kristin]

So as I've been saving up money and dreaming about buying my first plane, I've realized a retractable fits my mission the best. I'd love the speed for cross countries and can afford the added maintenance. Plus I plan on getting my IR shortly after I buy it, which should help with the insurance cost.

Most of the time, I feel confident about stepping up to a complex plane. I think I'm a good, safe, conscientious pilot. It's the next logical step.

But then there are days like today that make me feel like a total idiot who can't be trusted with a retractable. I did a little practice flight, doing slow flight, steep turns and touch-and-goes at a couple of nearby airports this morning. But for one of the landings, I completely forgot to do a pre-landing check. I realized this just as I was giving it throttle to take off again and saw the mixture was still leaned for cruise.

No harm done, but I felt like such a moron. And I know if I had a retractable that would have been a VERY expensive mistake.

I'm only at 160 hours now, so there's a good reason for my lack of confidence. But I also could see complacency making my dumb mistakes even easier down the road, too.

Most days I think a Bonanza or Mooney or Comanche might be a really great fit for me. Today, though, I'm thinking 182

It is all in the training. The automatic systems are not foolproof either. My very first instructor, in a 152, made me paranoid about it because he demanding that I do the routine on downwind, base, and final, at the same place in the pattern each time. That initial habit pattern has served me well. You need an instructor that will insist on the same level or routine. After 36+ years, I still get this momentary panic feeling on short final that forces me to look for the green.

 

[pburger]

I've been flying my Arrow for 20 years now, and somewhere about 15 years ago or so I started doing something that I find very helpful. I say the words, "Checklist Complete" when I have completed my landing checklist.

I use GUMP, and either slightly before entering the pattern or when on downwind I will begin my GUMP check. I will say outloud, "Gas - fuel on proper tank, boost pump on; Undercarriage - down and locked; Mixture - full rich...". That's usually all I can say the first time, because I haven't advanced the prop yet. I may say to myself, "waiting on the prop". Once I've reduced power and begun descending I will move the prop forward. Now, when I run my GUMP check, I say it all again outloud, "Gas - fuel on proper tank, boost pump on; Undercarriage - down and locked; Mixture - rich..." and this time I can add, "...PROP". Once I move the prop full forward, I add the following outloud, "CHECKLIST COMPLETE!". I have trained myself to never land unless I have heard the words "Checklist Complete". If I'm unsure, I'll run through it again, but once I say it, it's usually enough. I started this for myself, but I find that passengers seem to be reassured by the words, "Checklist Complete".

(My Arrow had the automatic gear extension removed, and I like it that way)

 

[gkainz]

This!

I am not against checklists, but single pilot, I have found the hard copy checklist can actually be a distraction. I have skipped more steps using the hard copy than using a flow. You start looking at the checklist and then look up/answer ATC/adjust trim..etc and next thing you know, you just skipped over 'landing gear down'.

you skipped over 'landing gear down' right to 'landing... gear down'

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I've been that guy at the hold line....watching in slow motion.....

I did bark a few things on the CTAF.....there was a rather quick go around....and a clean up after the successful landing.


...I'm sure it left skid marks, not on the runway either.