Primarily what most young grads lack is judgment. What Kenny Rogers would call "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em." Your "debating" in this thread demonstrates, not a willingness to learn or expand your horizons, but rather a certainty that your level of experience does not warrant. See, you might very well be right (and I haven't said whether I agree with you), but you lack the experience to know that you're right. Unfortunately, you also lack the judgment to recognize that.
Really? You got through an aviation bachelor's program with a minor in aviation safety without learning the functions of a FSDO? And the airport manager couldn't help you out with this? Like she doesn't have an ongoing relationship with someone at your local FSDO she could put you in touch with? Not believable.
What's believable is that you came here to commiserate about a pilot who, IYO, is one of those rat bastards who makes us all look bad, and you were surprised at the reaction. So you got defensive and the reaction got harsher. So you added "facts," which made those attacking you further question your credibility and intensified their reaction. Rinse, repeat.
I would wonder why you were acting like you are acting.
I assume the double negative is unintentional. But here's the thing. As a fresh college graduate, what you have is book knowledge. What you lack is experience (and the judgment that comes with it). Both are important. Someday, I expect you'll find a nice balance of both.
Yep. And usually the older graduates already have the judgment to know what they don't know and the STFU about what they think they do know. I spend a bit of time around recent grads at work. I even interview them for jobs. Telling you that you're like the vast majority of your peers is not meant to be harsh. It's just reality. I made a suggestion regarding how you can benefit from maturity beyond your own age and experience and you took it as an insult. You've made up your mind on a course of action here, and you should follow through. I hope it will be a positive learning experience for you.
So from the looks of it, what "most" young grads lack in judgment, you make up for by judging them yourself.
I mean, you're telling me that I'm not debating while it's been said by more than a couple people that I've been maintaining a substantive discussion the whole way through. Go ahead and pick out something from a point I've made if you'd like to be specific, what are you going to tell me? FAR's aren't for following or reporting when they're broken? I'm unable to judge how high aircraft fly or the area they fly over? I'm fully incapable of making my own judgments and decisions about safety? Where do you get off? Since I'm apparently not capable of judging those simple things while you are a professional at this point at judging all kinds of things, go ahead and tell everyone what you think of the subject at hand? I'd love to know.
Yeah, I did have classes with stuff about the FSDO in it. I also had a ton of classes with nothing to do with safety. Pardon me if, over the course of the last 4 years, I've not actually reported someone first hand. I know that might blow your mind that people like me don't actually actively hunt for pilots based on jealousy and entitlement while flaunting my obvious lack of experience but bear with me here, I'm going to make a point.
Allow me to direct you to the posts on the PoA forum made daily by pilots with all levels of experience to brush up on basics. You name it and it's been asked here. Why? Because real pilots don't stop training, they don't stop asking questions, they don't stop taking advice, and they sure as hell don't end up with a closed mind like yours. Excuse me for asking a question about something I knew a while ago and don't know now. It's an egregious error on my part and it obviously invalidates my entire argument. The airport manager is a guy and he wasn't in the day of. Also, he said we'd handle it on Monday and that we'd talk about it then. How awful!
Yeah, I sure came here to commiserate and get the internet karma of beating down on a poor defenseless pilot that I just pounced on the second he came to the airport. I also came here to totally get kudos for beating down on said pilot. Back to reality. Look at the original post. Let that sink in for a minute. What does it ask? Oh, I don't know, how do I go about reporting a dangerous pilot to the proper place. Yeah, that sure is inflammatory, obviously pining for people to come in and argue with me about reporting in the first place.
Maybe next time I should post a thread about flap usage in the pattern to get everyone to argue, that's obviously my motive. Even if that was the case, why on earth would I spend the time and energy trying to get my point across to people like you?
What "facts" did I add? And how did they make people further question my argument? They've been doing that from the beginning of the entire thread.
As a fresh college graduate, what I find you are lacking is that same book knowledge and the fresh perspective that's being applied today in the "modern times". It's okay, you still have a heaping helping of the judgment that comes with that "experience" of yours. Unfortunately, being as closed minded as you seem to be in your posts, I'm not sure if you'll ever hit that golden 'balance' you talk about yourself.
You must be uncertain, as you said you were reluctant to post the video.
If you were certain, you would post the video and quiet the peanut gallery.
Honestly, it's no one's right here to even see the video in the first place. It's not like I have anything to prove to the people who don't think I have eyes and sound enough judgment
This is the better answer, send him a friendly anonymous letter with the photo, indicating the next person may not be so generous as to not report him, or that he probably doesn't want photos on the front page of the local newspaper either.
Careful what you report the FAA, they have a habit of investigating the person reporting almost as much as they will investigate the person being reported.
Brian
PS. and if he doesn't happen to be the owner of the airplane, which is who you will send the letter to based on the registration information, then he will probably be in plenty of hot water with the owner.
Thank you for the suggestion. My thing with just talking to the guy is that he may have been talked to before by people who weren't going to report him instead and he just did it again. I don't know. A lot of the people here are pushing me to talk to the guy, while at the same time telling me that I'm borderline stalking pilots trying to catch them off guard in the first place.
The only way I can be sure of a dangerous pilot being reprimanded is reporting it so that the FSDO can judge it. In my opinion, it wouldn't do anything - the guy wasn't told in flight training that it's cool to buzz towns and that it's legal, and during pilot training he was taught the FAR's. He knew he was breaking the rules and most likely wouldn't care less, especially coming from a younger guy like me (which according to a few people here, means I have a worthless opinion and even more worthless judgment).
We all need to make sure we police our neighbors for only we know what is right and wrong. Its for the safety of the kids.
Also remember to report that pilot who goes out before sunrise and pre-flights his airplane for we all know he is running drugs.
We must all remember, no one is doing anything legal anymore. Everyone is a criminal and out to hurt or kill you.
Do you need the number to 911. I will give it to you.
Tony
Yeah, okay, obviously relevant to the subject at hand. Reporting a pilot for doing something clearly illegal is somehow being overzealous
Also the OP post that the airplane was at 500'. I bet this person does not even need an altimeter in his airplane for he knows altitude just by looking with +-50 feet.
I had a person tell me, you where out flying circles over that house and points to a house. I said no. I was about a 1/2 mile on the other side flying around a point. But from this person perspective it looked like I was above that house. But I was not.
Be careful what you accuse for someday it could be you being accused by MR Joe Public playing COP.
Its crazy how Karma works.....
Tony
Karma was already addressed earlier in the post and discounted, I suggest you do the same.
Remind me how on earth YOU are able to estimate what altitude aircraft are flying at yourself, if you don't mind me asking? Or do you just never do that? And if that's the case, how can you discount my estimations when you've never done it yourself?
When you say low pass over the field was he aligned with the runway? I would rather see someone low passing an airport than their buddies house. "Climbing out" from an airport even if it is slowly over a town is not really a crime.
MYOB would be my call on this one.
He flew directly over the terminal and over the town. If it was just the airport once or twice I could understand, maybe reading the wind sock or something since he has no radio for the AWOS, but the town and that many times? I don't think so.
I don't think I would go out of my way to report this. If I lived in a place where my airport is under constant scrutiny by locals, and in danger of being shut down, I might... Because I don't need some idiot that wants to chance his life ruining my fun!
I think that if it is like you described then the guy is not following his training and disregarding safety. That said I don't think you should be so quick to call foul.
I also think that the people on this thread talking down to you and being rude about it are very much in the wrong. If you want to report something then go ahead, only you know the severity of the issue. The people here are acting like little kids who don't want to be tattled on, which makes you wonder why...
Look, we are pilots and with that we have a responsibility to be safe and professional. That doesn't mean we can't have fun. With that comes the fact that regulations govern us. All of you can say that you may or may not report it, but discouraging someone else is ridiculous and childish. If you have an opinion that you don't want to report him that's fine, but you're all treating this like the rules don't apply to you. If you don't care about one, not so important rule, how far does that go? I wouldn't fly with anyone that has such an open disregard for the rules. Yes, I wouldn't report him, but I believe the OP can do what he deems fit and I recognize that a rule is a rule. I would not violate any and I would never operate illegally.
Everyone who has rudely and aggressively harassed the OP should be ashamed. You are entitled to your opinion. You don't want to report him, fine. Here's the truth, not matter how much you believe you are somehow better than everyone by ignoring a violation, you are wrong because a rule is a rule and there is no way around it. You don't have to report it but don't openly attack the regulations or someone that decided they want to more actively persue them... Anyone who thinks they are above the law is dangerous. We don't need people violating eachother and we don't need people dying. Let's pick a middle ground.
I still think reporting them after one instance is a bit harsh. But I admire your sense of doing right by yourself.
I will also say this, I know you're from ERAU. Not saying anything bad about that, I'm from FIT. But I will tell you that I did some of my training in the "real world", part 61 in a regular school. Only some of it I did with FIT. I can tell you that the perfect world you live in at a College part 141 flight school doesn't exist. You can come out of there thinking you can go and use your knowledge to try and change how everyone works. It's a noble cause but it is an unlikely one. I love that fact that I live and work in both environments. There is a real world and there is a correct world. Unfortunate but true. I tend to operate more in the real world!
Also, those of you who think age matters, you can ignore this because I'm 19.
The only real points of contention I have with your well thought out post is that I'd report a pilot regardless of whether an airport is going under, and that I underwent flight training outside of ERAU.
First, a stupid pilot can get himself killed, crash and kill a family, and then the public gets even more ****ed off at general aviation than they already are. If the guy gets reported and is found to be indeed dangerous, he gets reprimanded or removed from the flying public.
Also, the ERAU safety classes were very good and very thorough. To me, it doesn't matter if the safety expectations don't match the 'real world' in practice -in order to increase safety, you have to aim at the "perfect world". How else can it improve?
Interesting post. Being as thought the OP is in my home state, I felt obliged to join the forums (have been a lurker for a while) in order to post some thoughts.
First, on the subject of Overdrive's age: I doubt that most of the comments regarding your age are specifically targeted at you necessarily because you are young. However, the tone and writing style certainly caused me to picture a younger pilot who was taking it upon himself to "save the world". Your age and number of flight hours do not necessarily dictate that you are immature, but please keep in mind that a TON of wisdom is gained from simply living life and observing the wide range of experiences out there. More specifically, you seem to believe that the offending pilot was operating dangerously and recklessly by flying 500-600ft AGL. You mentioned a lot of "what-ifs" about hitting a college tower, etc., which at your age (I'm not much older) I might have also been concerned about. However, after having been around more and more flying (less TT than you) I find that the activities aren't nearly as dangerous or risky as they originally appeared, and the probability of a fatal accident was still incredibly small. Flying 500' AGL isn't something I typically make a habit of, but I'm not about to contact the FAA because someone made a few low passes. If he was doing aerobatics or truly "buzzing" people, I'd be more inclined to agree, but it doesn't sound as though it was anywhere near that extreme.
Second, I do find your convictions to be in the right place, however your reluctance to talk to the gentleman flying the aircraft to be disheartening. You state (in a roundabout way) that it's our responsibility as airmen to report these possible breaches in FAA regs in the name of "safety". Obviously no one here would want to have it on their conscience if that pilot was later in an accident where he was killed or killed others, pax or on the ground. However, you are willing to go the distance to file the report, submit the video, and respond to additional FAA queries/possibly chastisement from fellow pilots . . . yet unable to simply pick up a telephone or send a letter/pic to the owner of the aircraft found in the registration database? If you efforts to curtail the situation verbally were rejected, and the pilot continues to make himself a nuisance, by all means go ahead and sic the dogs on him. If your neighbor doesn't know that his stereo is causing you annoyance, why not just talk to him instead of calling the police first? It's not about being a tattle-tale, it's more about trying to be civil to one another, especially to a member of a pretty elite membership like pilots are.
Finally, on the subject of choosing which regs to obey and which are bendable . . . it's not your job to make that delineation. I look at it similar to seeing someone on the highway speeding where there's a humorous saying, "Anyone driving slower than me is crazy, and anyone driving faster than me is insane!" My point being, it's often very difficult to draw the line at what should be reported and what shouldn't. I'm not calling the cops on some guy for driving 80mph in a 65mph zone just the same as I wouldn't report a guy for flying 300' under a cloud while flying VFR (assuming I could definitively prove he was doing so).
As was mentioned by several others, you're free to do whatever helps you sleep at night, but I'd recommend trying to help gain a friend through helpful discourse (the offending pilot) rather than surely making an enemy of him by calling the FAA. The downside to calling the FAA every time you see a reg busted is that you will have to do EVERY time you see one busted (or else your logic won't hold up) because no regs are ever to be busted without repercussion from the FAA. Another ugly caveat from that style of "enforcement" is that it can (and has) led to more and more FAR's time and time again. Legislating everything out of aviation would soon be so burdensome as to make the activity too unattractive for most.
The purpose of my post is not to call your age/flight time/knowledge/convictions into question, merely to present my outside viewpoint and hope that you'll keep an open mind in how you proceed with your actions.
First off, welcome to PoA. Thank you for making probably the best worded post in opposition to my point of view.
That being said, I do have a few points to contest:
Flying at 500-600 feet AGL isn't nearly as dangerous and risky as it appears, and that the probability of a fatal accident is still incredibly small.
The reason the altitude requirements are in the FAR's is because the FAA believes that it is dangerous for pilots to be that low. Most FAR's are written in blood because pilots did stupid things or had something happen where they ended up killing themselves and possibly other people. Student pilots and professional pilots have died from doing the same thing that this guy did - look at the article that Fast Eddie posted earlier on. The guy had thousands of hours. Experience or no, things happen that low that are impossible to recover from regardless of skill level. It's not to limit the fun of the pilot or their freedom, it's downright dangerous to themselves, the people under them, and the industry after they ball up an airplane. That brings me to my second point.
Another ugly caveat from that style of "enforcement" is that it can (and has) led to more and more FAR's time and time again. Legislating everything out of aviation would soon be so burdensome as to make the activity too unattractive for most.
Fair enough, but what do you think happens every time a pilot does something stupid or kills people on the ground or both? More regulations to tell them not to do that in the first place? That's the point of the FAR's telling you about minimum altitude, many pilots have killed themselves flying too low and that's why it's illegal. It's not even about legislating everything out of aviation, it is to increase safety so that aviation will grow because people don't see a dangerous and reckless pilot crash into a house because he was flying too low
The more pilots that break the rules put in place specifically for preventing the accidents that have happened in the past, or for that matter argue that the rules don't apply to them because they're some sort of cowboy, the more people will believe that aviation is unsafe and the industry will not grow. The media already blows aircraft crashes out of proportion as it is, why do we need to give them more ammunition to destroy or harm the industry we all enjoy?
My last point on your post is based on your comment about it being disheartening to go talk to the guy and that it might have changed things for the better. Fair enough, I could've gone out to the pump if I'd gotten to him first and pulled him aside and told him what he was doing was unsafe and asked him not to do it again. What says that he wouldn't have the exact same reaction as some of the people in this thread?
"Oh, you don't know nothin', you're just a young kid without any hours or experience and I know better than you".
What's to say someone hasn't already asked him to knock it off, and I'm the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th person to do so? The only way to be sure is to report him to the FSDO. If you're already breaking the rules, doing wrong pattern entries, flying way too low, what's the chance he's going to listen to anyone other than an inspector? And at least if the inspector gets a hold of him he may at least ask the guy to knock it off and it goes on file in case more complaints arise. If he blows off the inspector he's in hot water. I can't see any downside here - so what if it's an "inconvenience" or if the FSDO inspector asks for my information - I don't have anything to hide. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not calling this guy out for no reason, and if most of you truly believed that the FSDO would grill me or that I didn't have a case, you'd probably encourage me so I got grilled
.
That being said, thank you for your post.
Long gone are the days a buddy used to fly a corsair in the reserves out of willow grove. He would buzz so low that dishes in the china cabinet vibrated and then would buzz his office. How I miss that occasional roaring buzz job! No one would have even considered Turning him in. Not to mention a recently passed pilot who used to buzz the local field in an arrow star before landing easily in 2100 feet. In this case immaturity may be raising its head. He seems determined to play cop. So be it.
Buzzing the field is one thing. Flying military aircraft is another thing. I'm not even going to reply to the immaturity comment.
Sounds awesome. I can't believe how many noise complaints we get for flying 500 ft AGL enroute back home from the training area. Not at 2am either, I'm talking about the middle of the day. Don't the American citizens know the sound of freedom?
ps - OP, I'm talking about flying a helicopter, so don't go run to the FSDO and report me for flying 500 AGL.
You'd think being in the military that you'd be aware that military aircraft are different than Part 91. F-16's and A-10's and your AH-64 routinely fly that low for training. This is a non-issue
now you've done it. Just wait till one of the do-gooders takes a read and sees folks can set their own gross weight.
One would also think that being a crop duster, you'd recognize that you are subject to different rules. This was a part 91 aircraft, a personal plane that wasn't doing anything that would allow him to be that low.
Calling someone who is trying to follow the rules a "do gooder", especially when they are trying to do good for the industry as a whole, is kind of asinine. Before you come back saying that the FAR's aren't good for the industry, go ahead and read up on the NTSB accident report database for pilots flying too low and killing people. Then take it up with the FAA instead of me. Thanks for your post.
It really annoys me when people call 911 to report low flying aircraft. We live in an area with hills, and mountains and rivers. Most of the whiners that call live on a hillside and the planes are flying at eye level to them . Mind you, they are flying over the river.
callers insisting that I send a deputy to arrest these dangerous pilots. Then they get all bent out of shape when I tell them that the pilot is perfectly legal. And if they weren't legal, not a damn thing my deputies could do. Not going to arrest a pilot for busting a FAR.
Probably didn't mention it, but it's almost entirely flat near the airport here.
So, it is Tuesday, the FSDO was open yesterday. What did you decide?
Are you going to post the video?
I didn't get a hold of the video as I didn't take it (I was too busy with the binocs). The report has not been posted yet.
Give him time, it will take more then 8 hours for him to explain all of the bad pilot's transgressions.
Seriously trolling in every post you can get in edgewise, not even worth responding to you anymore because you don't have anything to add
I mentioned getting sued, defamation of character maybe?
Gettin his ass kicked is a very obvious possibility too
Defamation of character? Really? No wonder everyone's afraid of speaking out, all you can think about is getting sued like the rest of the US
screw safety, I don't want to be
sued! And yeah, if the guy was violent then sure, why not?
I can see your point a view, and heaven knows their are too many that go to DEFCON 1 immediately. That said, I personally would call the pilot first if I were that concerned.
The OP got roughed up pretty good in here on several fronts including age ... amazing as I imagine most here would go out of their way to help a stranded pilot on a long XC.
On an age related note: The CFI that performed my transition training had just turned 22 and had a TON of flying experience (gliders, freight dog, etc.). Being over twice his age I was initially skeptical, but remained neutral ... afterwards he indicated that I was his first older (I'm 51) student that didn't question him on his experience. I laughed and told him I actually did ... when I asked him how he got into flying during our San Antonio to EL Paso XC, he pretty much filled in all the gaps. His knowledge of all things avionics without pulling a manual as well as stick and rudder skills was amazing. Don't pre-judge the younger pilots guys - there are amazing ones out there.
Thank you for the story! While I believe I'm not quite on that level of flight ability, I feel pretty mature on the safety side of the whole thing compared to a lot of the pilots on here
You don't post on a forum full of pilots asking whether you should snitch on another pilot and then get upset when some people express opinions strongly opposed to your own. That just reeks of trolling. If you're really concerned about it, and not just getting a high over the thought of reporting someone to the authorities, then go for it. Unless the video you have clearly identifies the aircraft being flown AND shows the aircraft being flown in an unlawful manner, odds are your report will just fall by the wayside with the hundreds, if not thousands, of reports called in by aviation-ignorant citizens. Heck, if what you saw really was so bad, why not just post the video for everyone here to see? At least then we'll have some evidence upon which we can base a rational opinion.
Personally, I think people are way too quick these days to start dialing 911 every time they see something they deem "suspicious" or "dangerous."
So a post asking for information about reporting is obvious trolling? Okay buddy, like I've said to every other post in here calling that, that's a pretty weak argument.
The video isn't anyone's business and I have nothing to prove by posting it for any kind of justification. From the rest of the posts in here, many of these pilots are about as ignorant as the flying public, and they've been trained on the rules to boot.
The FAR's are the law. This is a pilot breaking the law. This is not based on suspicion of breaking the law. This point of "well, it's just him being whiny about something" is stupid because it is deemed by the FAA to be dangerous enough to be against the law. Go take it up with them if you think that it's not worth following.
