Reportable traffic school

[Unregistered]

When did traffic tickets resulting in traffic school become reportable or have they always been? I haven't had a medical exam in 6 years - I am under 40 and yes I let it expire - and just went to fill out the 8500 online and see this:
(2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.
I haven't had a ticket or gone to traffic school in four years but before that I had 4 speeding tickets in 10 years that were all dismissed through deferred adjudication but I didnt report because I must have misread the form and didn't see the part about "attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program". Do I just give up on my dream of flying now?

 

[JHW]

See what bruce says, but my take is there is a difference between being forced to go to traffic school by the seriousness of the offence, and electing to go to get out of a ticket you otherwise could have paid through the mail.

A few years ago I want to traffic school. I had a flickering light on my boat trailer and got a $150 ticket, waived if I went to a 3 hour class. The kid sitting next to me in class got arrested for going 170mph on his bike in a 55mph zone. Traffic school was part of his court supervision to be able to get his license back.

Same traffic school, but in my view his was reportable, mine not. My 2 cents.

 

[Sac Arrow]

A speeding ticket is an infraction, it wouldn't have been reportable even if you didn't go to traffic school - and you aren't going to lose your license over four tickets in ten years unless they were serious dooseys. I say non issue. I if you asked for a survey of how many people reported traffic school, I doubt you'd see many hands go up.

 

[Unregistered]

It's not the tickets I am worried about, it's the fact I haven't reported them. Ever.

 

[poadeleted20]

See what bruce says, but my take is there is a difference between being forced to go to traffic school by the seriousness of the offence, and electing to go to get out of a ticket you otherwise could have paid through the mail.

I don't believe the FAA shares Jeff's take, and they want it reported. However, IIRC, Bruce has said in the past that they don't get excited about this as long as there was no alcohol (or other drugs) involved. Bruce will be along later to provide reliable information on where you stand and what to do.

It's not the tickets I am worried about, it's the fact I haven't reported them. Ever.

The requirements for reporting have changed over the years, and this might not have been reportable the last time you applied. Again, wait for Bruce's advice.

 

[TMetzinger]

I have an official opinion from the FAA on a similar issue "do I have to report going to traffic school if I wasn't sentenced there?". It is attached, as is my letter to them.

Basically, if you're not "sent" to a traffic school as a result of a court or administrative action, you don't have to report it.

 

[Unregistered]

I have an official opinion from the FAA on a similar issue "do I have to report going to traffic school if I wasn't sentenced there?". It is attached.

Wow! Thanks for posting this. So it looks like the key is "mandatory" and since I madethe decision to do traffic school to lower the ticket cost and complete deferred adjudication, they aren't reportable? I am not sure how I'd prove it was my choice given that I don't remember the dates the tickets even happened, but I guess that's not a problem until/unless they ask.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have an official opinion from the FAA on a similar issue "do I have to report going to traffic school if I wasn't sentenced there?". It is attached.

Wow! Thanks for posting this. So it looks like the key is "mandatory" and since I madethe decision to do traffic school to lower the ticket cost and complete deferred adjudication, they aren't reportable? I am not sure how I'd prove it was my choice given that I don't remember the dates the tickets even happened, but I guess that's not a problem until/unless they ask.

I wouldn't call being given the choice of taking the school or paying a fine to be "strictly of your own volition." If you read Tim's question letter, you'll see it is not germane to the OP's situation. Tim's letter talks about a situation where you can choose entirely on your own down the line to reduce the points on your record by taking the school, which is quite different from being told about receiving a ticket "take the school or pay the fine."

 

[JHW]

I wouldn't call being given the choice of taking the school or paying a fine to be "strictly of your own volition." If you read Tim's question letter, you'll see it is not germane to the OP's situation. Tim's letter talks about a situation where you can choose entirely on your own down the line to reduce the points on your record by taking the school, which is quite different from being told about receiving a ticket "take the school or pay the fine."

Keep digging. I'm sure this hole will be a lot deeper before this thread is over.

 

[Unregistered]

I wouldn't call being given the choice of taking the school or paying a fine to be "strictly of your own volition." If you read Tim's question letter, you'll see it is not germane to the OP's situation. Tim's letter talks about a situation where you can choose entirely on your own down the line to reduce the points on your record by taking the school, which is quite different from being told about receiving a ticket "take the school or pay the fine."

"The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation."

I think this is the important part?

 

[SCCutler]

I wouldn't call being given the choice of taking the school or paying a fine to be "strictly of your own volition." If you read Tim's question letter, you'll see it is not germane to the OP's situation. Tim's letter talks about a situation where you can choose entirely on your own down the line to reduce the points on your record by taking the school, which is quite different from being told about receiving a ticket "take the school or pay the fine."

Ron, I'd apply my lawyerly parsing and interpretation skills to state that, if you opt to take a driving school in lieu of paying a fine, there is no reportable event; this presumes, of course, that the underlying citation was not for one of the egregious items, the DWI, etc.

Quoting from the November 15, 2010 letter, a copy of which was posted by its addressee, the Right Honorable Mr. Metzinger:

The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation.

(emphasis added)

If the Citation in question was not otherwise reportable, then the driver safety class taken as an elective choice of punishment is not reportable, either. It is logically consistent.

If (hypothetically) the driver had been ordered to traffic school as a condition of retaining the privilege of driving, it should then be reportable.

 

[poadeleted20]

"The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation."

I think this is the important part?

Yes, and I don't think "strictly on your own volition" is the same as "you can take the school or pay the fine." Tim's letter does not discuss the latter situation, and the Chief Counsel's response is specific to Tim's question. Wait for Bruce.

 

[Unregistered]

That's ok. Obviously I screwed up and there is probably no way out of this short of hiring a lawyer i can't afford. Not like Ive been flying a lot anyway , so never flying again is something I'll get used to eventeually.

 

[DaleB]

The situation in which you
describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation.

If I get a minor speeding ticket in my state, I can choose -- strictly on my own -- to either pay the fine, or to attend a defensive driving class. Either way, I'm not going to lose my license over it.

By one person's reasoning (if I understand it correctly), if I pay the fine it's not reportable... but if I choose to take the class, it is reportable. So, if my attitude is that I'm willing to pay the occasional speeding ticket as the price of routinely ignoring speed limits -- that's OK. But, if I recognize that I made a mistake and take the opportunity for some remedial training and some corrective thinking, I have to report it. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Having to report court ordered remedial training for a serious infraction does make sense. It's a way to identify those people who would have lost their license for some serious infraction like reckless driving and other serious offenses who managed to get out of having their license pulled by completing a court ordered diversion or training program.

IANAL, but it looks to me like "on your own volition" means "not ordered by the court".

That's ok. Obviously I screwed up and there is probably no way out of this short of hiring a lawyer i can't afford. Not like Ive been flying a lot anyway , so never flying again is something I'll get used to eventeually.

Or, you could just ask the AME for his input. Or Bruce. Why would you need a lawyer for this? That just doesn't make any sense at all. Check the suction gauge, your AI looks a little off.

 

[Unregistered]

By one person's reasoning (if I understand it correctly), if I pay the fine it's not reportable... but if I choose to take the class, it is reportable. So, if my attitude is that I'm willing to pay the occasional speeding ticket as the price of routinely ignoring speed limits -- that's OK. But, if I recognize that I made a mistake and take the opportunity for some remedial training and some corrective thinking, I have to report it. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I was just coming back to make this same point. What a crock. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less out of the FAA though.

 

[SCCutler]

Yes, and I don't think "strictly on your own volition" is the same as "you can take the school or pay the fine." Tim's letter does not discuss the latter situation, and the Chief Counsel's response is specific to Tim's question. Wait for Bruce.

Ron:

Check the timeline; the letter which Tim wrote and attached above is one which he wrote today; the FAA letter was from two years ago.

The FAA letter is not ambiguous in this described circumstance; if you had the option of taking or not taking the class, it is not a reportable event. If you take the class in lieu of a fine, with the choice exclusively yours, it by definition does not fall in to the category of "...driving arrests or convictions that are severe enough to result in mandatory educational / rehabilitation programs or in suspension/revocation of driving privileges ..."

The FAA does, at times, take logical positions which evince internal consistency and common-sense logic; this is one of those instances.

 

[DaleB]

I was just coming back to make this same point. What a crock. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less out of the FAA though.

That was one person's opinion. You have several people who think otherwise. But if resignation is your attitude, then maybe you're on the right track with not pursuing it.

 

[TMetzinger]

Ron:

Check the timeline; the letter which Tim wrote and attached above is one which he wrote today; the FAA letter was from two years ago.

The FAA letter is not ambiguous in this described circumstance; if you had the option of taking or not taking the class, it is not a reportable event. If you take the class in lieu of a fine, with the choice exclusively yours, it by definition does not fall in to the category of "...driving arrests or convictions that are severe enough to result in mandatory educational / rehabilitation programs or in suspension/revocation of driving privileges ..."

The FAA does, at times, take logical positions which evince internal consistency and common-sense logic; this is one of those instances.

Sorry - I wrote the letter a while back, when I converted it to PDF it got re-dated. The FAA opinion is is in response to the letter I posted, ignore the date on the letter.

 

[JHW]

I was just coming back to make this same point. What a crock. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less out of the FAA though.

Whoa there. The FAA position per that letter seems perfectly reasonable, and you have done nothing wrong. Don't get caught in the RAR do-loop.

 

[SCCutler]

Sorry - I wrote the letter a while back, when I converted it to PDF it got re-dated. The FAA opinion is is in response to the letter I posted, ignore the date on the letter.

Oops, apologies for my perhaps peremptory tone, then.

I still stand by my conclusion; the FAA letter is very explicit in the scope of opinion offered, and in my view, it is the only logically-consistent position they could take.

Not that the FAA is ever limited by logic...

 

[TMetzinger]

Oops, apologies for my perhaps peremptory tone, then.

I still stand by my conclusion; the FAA letter is very explicit in the scope of opinion offered, and in my view, it is the only logically-consistent position they could take.

Not that the FAA is ever limited by logic...

No worries. I agree that unless you are sentenced to traffic school - the "state" says you MUST go, that it's not reportable.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm still not seeing taking a driving course as being "strictly on your own volition" when you were forced to choose between paying a fine or taking the class, even if Counselor Culter (who, unlike me, is a lawyer) does. I would strongly advise obtaining positive confirmation of this from an FAA source before choosing not to report it on my next medical application.

Again, Bruce has direct access to FAA thinking on this, so wait for his input.

 

[Unregistered]

"The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation."

What other situation would this refer to? There isn't one. My situation is exactly what this is talking about.

Also, fines are still paid when you do traffic school, at least in the state I got these tickets, It just means it doesn't go on your record.

 

[DaleB]

I'm still not seeing taking a driving course as being "strictly on your own volition" when you were forced to choose between paying a fine or taking the class, even if Counselor Culter (who, unlike me, is a lawyer) does. I would strongly advise obtaining positive confirmation of this from an FAA source before choosing not to report it on my next medical application.

Again, Bruce has direct access to FAA thinking on this, so wait for his input.

I know that's how you see it, but it just doesn't make any logical sense. If your view is correct, paying the fine is OK and not reportable... but deciding to take remedial training is reportable. That really doesn't pass the "WTF?" test.

I can't speak for other jurisdictions, but in my neck of the woods, I'm not forced to choose. I get a minor ticket, I have the choice. It's entirely up to me. If I do nothign, I have to pay the fine. I can choose, completely on my own, to take the DD course instead. It's not tough to understand...

I'll make a friendly wager with you on the final outcome of this... the stakes are a heartfelt, "Wow, you were right, I was wrong."

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess I interpret the phrase "strictly on your own volition" rather differently. If someone's holding a gun to my head, I don't see any choice I make as being "strictly on [my] own volition" even if I am "free" to choose between the two alternatives alternatives offered by the holder of the gun, neither of which I would ever have taken unless I was given no choice but to choose between them.

However, as I said from the start, I'm not 100% certain on this. If I'm wrong, and the OP waits for an authoritative answer, no sweat -- he's lost maybe 24 hours (which I really doubt is critical). If I'm right, and the OP runs with the wrong answer, he's hosed -- it's a bell you can't unring. Maybe there's only a small chance I'm right, but I figure it ain't worth that risk to jump on an answer which isn't sure in order to do it RIGHT NOW.

As I said from the beginning -- WAIT FOR BRUCE.

 

[Unregistered]

If I'm right, and the OP runs with the wrong answer, he's hosed -- it's a bell you can't unring.

Unfortunately, it's too late, I've already "lied" on several applications. I'm done. Not worth ending up with fines I cant pay or in jail for lying about it. Can this thread be closed?

 

[comanchepilot]

As usual the FAA lawyers live in a bureaucratic bubble and have never tried a case or dealt with civil or criminal procedure in their lives for the most part.

The way traffic school works in all 46 states, 3 commonwealths and whatever we call Louisiana today is that:

1. You receive a citation for a minor traffic infraction [not a misdemeanor or felony] or one of those citations is reduced to an infraction;
2. You have a choice of a) electing to attend traffic school and then have the citation dismissed by the court, b) pay the fine or c) have a trial;
3. Even if you elect to attend 'traffic school' you must be assigned or ordered to attend the school by the court - its done by a clerk in some states and a judges administrative order in others;
4. You attend and then there is an order of dismissal entered.

You have attended traffic school because the court ORDERED it - even if it is an administrative order and when you complete traffic school the citation is expunged.

There still is a court order, even though you elected the order. The letter from the FAA lawyers leaves them way too damn much wiggle room to come back and get you by interpreting it any darn way they want. . . . if it were me I could give them a specific state fact pattern -

 

[poadeleted20]

Unfortunately, it's too late, I've already "lied" on several applications. I'm done. Not worth ending up with fines I cant pay or in jail for lying about it. Can this thread be closed?

If you are willing to accept all the guesswork and supposition above as absolute fact and dump your flying forever, go ahead. OTOH, you can wait for Bruce to weigh in and find out what your situation really is. Personally, I suspect it will be no big deal as long as you tell them all the facts now, but Bruce will know for sure.

 

[JHW]

If you are willing to accept all the guesswork and supposition above as absolute fact and dump your flying forever, go ahead. OTOH, you can wait for Bruce to weigh in and find out what your situation really is. Personally, I suspect it will be no big deal as long as you tell them all the facts now, but Bruce will know for sure.

the OP reads to me like someone looking for a reason to give up flying. The reaction is a little over-the-top.

 

[Unregistered]

the OP reads to me like someone looking for a reason to give up flying. The reaction is a little over-the-top.

I'm not looking for a reason, i just tend to panic when faced with the threat of fines and jail time because I did the right thing not knowing it would screw me in the end. I don't have $ for a lawyer so theres really nothing else to discuss here.

 

[poadeleted20]

the OP reads to me like someone looking for a reason to give up flying. The reaction is a little over-the-top.

Concur. Based on memory of past cases of ancient history as told by Bruce, I suspect they'll make him produce a bunch of documentation to prove he's given up stupid driving and give him a stern warning not to screw it up again (either the driving or the reporting). But the one thing I would recommend most strongly against is to apply for a new medical without mentioning the past events unless/until one was absolutely sure that they were not reportable -- that would be the only possible way to screw yourself up with the FAA, and a chance not worth taking with the real, reliable answer only a few hours away.

 

[JHW]

I'm not looking for a reason, i just tend to panic when faced with the threat of fines and jail time

and you are faced with neither yet persist in this desire to be guilty of something

 

[Unregistered]

Concur. Based on memory of past cases of ancient history as told by Bruce, I suspect they'll make him produce a bunch of documentation to prove he's given up stupid driving and give him a stern warning not to screw it up again (either the driving or the reporting).

Yes, but how on earth am I supposed to dig up information on traffic tickets that happened years ago when I don't even know when they happened?! Impossible. I don't even know what county they happened in - yes, I can narrow it down to 4-5, but I have no idea where or when these happened. These were all for less than 5 over the posted speed limit, It wasnt STUPID DRIVING.

 

[gprellwitz]

This is going to be a non-event. It's arguable that you even needed to report them in the first place (as evidenced by the fact that we've been arguing over it for over 30 posts). Dr. Bruce will likely say something like "report on the next medical as previously undisclosed non-alcohol related traffic school" and the AME may call OKC. There will almost positively be no enforcement action. In other words, I think Dr. Bruce has said it's never happened, and there's no reason for them to start with you. Wait for Dr. Bruce to give the final word, but this is no excuse to give up flying.

 

[RJM62]

I'm not looking for a reason, i just tend to panic when faced with the threat of fines and jail time because I did the right thing not knowing it would screw me in the end. I don't have $ for a lawyer so theres really nothing else to discuss here.

OP, understand that you are not going to jail over this.

Let that sink in.

Okay, has it sunk in? Yes? Good.

Now, are you still panicking?

If so, I think maybe you should take a look at that before getting back in the air. Panicking on a message board and panicking at altitude are two entirely different things, altogether.

-Rich

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, but how on earth am I supposed to dig up information on traffic tickets that happened years ago when I don't even know when they happened?! Impossible. I don't even know what county they happened in - yes, I can narrow it down to 4-5, but I have no idea where or when these happened. These were all for less than 5 over the posted speed limit, It wasnt STUPID DRIVING.

You got four tickets all for going less that 5 over the limit? Sorry, unless you're black and this happened in Mississippi in the 50's or early 60's, I'm beginning to smell "troll." :bye:

 

[Unregistered]

I'm not a troll, you try speeding in rural IL. And for everyone telling me this isn't as big a deal as Im making it, how do you explain this? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49377

 

[TMetzinger]

<snip>The way traffic school works in all 46 states, 3 commonwealths and whatever we call Louisiana today is that:

1. You receive a citation for a minor traffic infraction [not a misdemeanor or felony] or one of those citations is reduced to an infraction;
2. You have a choice of a) electing to attend traffic school and then have the citation dismissed by the court, b) pay the fine or c) have a trial;
3. Even if you elect to attend 'traffic school' you must be assigned or ordered to attend the school by the court - its done by a clerk in some states and a judges administrative order in others;
4. You attend and then there is an order of dismissal entered.

<snip>-

There's another way traffic school works, and it's what I referred to in my letter.

You take a driver improvement course (the same one a court may send you to), with no citation or violation or any court involvement. You complete the course. The DMV gets notified and you get good driving points added to your record.

 

[Ghery]

You got four tickets all for going less that 5 over the limit? Sorry, unless you're black and this happened in Mississippi in the 50's or early 60's, I'm beginning to smell "troll." :bye:

I can think of some small towns in eastern Washington where being black isn't a requirement for this to happen today. They finance a good part of the city budget with speeding tickets. You watch your speedometer very carefully in those towns.

 

[One Short]

I can think of some small towns in eastern Washington where being black isn't a requirement for this to happen today. They finance a good part of the city budget with speeding tickets. You watch your speedometer very carefully in those towns.

Same for most of Western Nebraska and Wyoming. One mile over can get you a ticket! The highways go from 65 to 30 with less than a thousand feet notice and the cops are always sitting there.