Reportable traffic school

You got a letter from Jim DeVoll, Tim, he's not AAM2 (the general counsel). He's a doc.

He's telling you what the docs want.
The lawyer side sez report it, period.

I don't want to tweak the lawyer side as we might no like the answer- like one particular CFI did with his disservice to us all as to the 18 month opinion on icing (His initials are R.M).

Whereas like Dr. DeVoll says, "multiple violations are also of concern" I have never seen them acted upon (However, they could speak to "personality disorder" MULTIPLE acts).

So in summary, I advise airmen to report these and keep the attorneys out of it. The docs usually don't blink.
 
bbchien said:
You got a letter from Jim DeVoll, Tim, he's not AAM2 (the general counsel). He's a doc.

He's telling you what the docs want.
The lawyer side sez report it, period.

I don't want to tweak the lawyer side as we might no like the answer- like one particular CFI did with his disservice to us all as to the 18 month opinion on icing (His initials are R.M).

Whereas like Dr. DeVoll says, "multiple violations are also of concern" I have never seen them acted upon (However, they could speak to "personality disorder" MULTIPLE acts).

So in summary, I advise airmen to report these and keep the attorneys out of it. The docs usually don't blink.
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so in spite of the fact that he says he coordinated with the lawyer side, you discard his response?

that's bs. may not be your bs - I do see your point, but it's still bs when you ask the faa counsel a question and the answer the faa sends cannot be relied upon.


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TMetzinger said:
so in spite of the fact that he says he coordinated with the lawyer side, you discard his response?

that's bs. may not be your bs - I do see your point, but it's still bs when you ask the faa counsel a question and the answer the faa sends cannot be relied upon.


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I don 't see Rebecca MacPherson's or Caron's signature on there anyplace. that makes this general counsel deniable. Why do you think Fred Tilton wrote his now famous "general Counsel inquiry" as to flight LSAs after 3rd class denial? It's all about "going on record". Ms Caron, the general counsel, is not on this letter.

Of course it's BS, Tim. Why do you think none of us trusts the g'mnt?
If they are not signed, they can deny anything.

Report. The Medical guys will yawn. As for 10 years ago, "I can't remember back that far...."
 
I think re-sending the letter to the chief counsel's office might be in order if everyone wants a definitive opinion. The letter should outline some specific scenarios:
1) Driver voluntarily takes class to have ticket dismissed prior to trial. No guilty verdict.
2) Driver pleads or is found guilty. But, is given choice to take class to avoid points.
3) Driver is given deferred adjudication. Ticket dismissed upon completion of class, otherwise guilty verdict goes on record.
 
did you not read Bruce's note? Do you not remember the KI-high humidity fiasco ? You never, ever ask for clarity from a bureaucrat. Vagueness is your friend.

tlglenn said:
I think re-sending the letter to the chief counsel's office might be in order if everyone wants a definitive opinion. The letter should outline some specific scenarios:
1) Driver voluntarily takes class to have ticket dismissed prior to trial. No guilty verdict.
2) Driver pleads or is found guilty. But, is given choice to take class to avoid points.
3) Driver is given deferred adjudication. Ticket dismissed upon completion of class, otherwise guilty verdict goes on record.
Click to expand...
 
tlglenn said:
I think re-sending the letter to the chief counsel's office might be in order if everyone wants a definitive opinion. The letter should outline some specific scenarios:
1) Driver voluntarily takes class to have ticket dismissed prior to trial. No guilty verdict.
2) Driver pleads or is found guilty. But, is given choice to take class to avoid points.
3) Driver is given deferred adjudication. Ticket dismissed upon completion of class, otherwise guilty verdict goes on record.
Click to expand...
I'm with Bruce and Ron, on this. Don't send it to Chief Counsel. That's where I sent it in the first place. They punted it to the Docs.

Given the "questionable logic" of recent opinions, I wouldn't take the risk of getting this one answered again. For my particular situation (and I haven't yet taken traffic school), I have an answer sent to me from the FAA that I'm comfortable following. Should I take traffic school in the future to earn some points, I won't report it. If it ever comes to an issue for me not reporting it, I'll wave the letter and follow the new processes in the Pilots Bill of Rights and would expect to eventually prevail.

For the OP, I think reporting it is no big deal.
 
That, Tim, is what we cleverly call, "common sense."
 
Doc Bruce, if I recall correctly, the administrative action language was added about 5 years ago. As the question has changed, I would expect the answer could change without penalty.
 
Michigan has an optional online traffic school Basic Driver Improvement Course that allows you to avoid points (but not the fine) under certain circumstances. I consider this to be non-reportable.
 
Gary F said:
Michigan has an optional online traffic school Basic Driver Improvement Course that allows you to avoid points (but not the fine) under certain circumstances. I consider this to be non-reportable.
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But does the FAA Chief Counsel agree with you? :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
But does the FAA Chief Counsel agree with you? :dunno:
Click to expand...
The online course is optional so I'll take my chances. It is not the same as being "referred to a special program".

Depending on the violation and how it is resolved, you may be fined, referred to a special program or, in the most serious situations, sent to jail.http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_8665_9066-23757--,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-48296-245584--F,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627_57170---,00.html
 
Gary F said:
The online course is optional so I'll take my chances. It is not the same as being "referred to a special program".

Depending on the violation and how it is resolved, you may be fined, referred to a special program or, in the most serious situations, sent to jail.http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_8665_9066-23757--,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-48296-245584--F,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627_57170---,00.html
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Michigan law isn't the issue. Good luck.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm not a troll, you try speeding in rural IL. And for everyone telling me this isn't as big a deal as Im making it, how do you explain this? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49377
Click to expand...

I am the one that started that thread. I think you are taking the wrong thing away from it, and are falling into a trap that I was explicitly trying to prevent people from falling into. Many here seem to think that reporting something is the end of the world. It's not. Ask Doc Bruce. As I noted in that thread, one DUI isn't even necessarily disqualifying, so don't be reluctant to tell the truth. You might have some additional hoop to jump through, but once you do that, you are off and flying. Where you can really get into trouble is when you don't report something that you must. Don't let irrational fear lead you to be reluctant to disclose something that is required. With something like this traffic school issue, if you report it on the application, the AME yawns, and signs off. You are good to go. From then on, you check the "yes" box, and in the comments section, you print: "Previously disclosed--No change." Every AME from then on yawns, and signs off.
 
Does anyone know what's the current general consensus on this issue? In some parts of Illinois, if you get a ticket (excluding DUIs) you can choose to:
-fight the ticket
-plead guilty and pay the fine, conviction gets reported on driving record
-plead guilty pay the fine and sign up for driving school (online class), conviction does not get reported, it does probably stay in that court's records though

"you may be eligible to take a Traffic Safety School course in order to avoid a conviction on your driving record"

"Upon successful completion of the class, the Driver Safety School will notify the court. No driving conviction will be reported to the Secretary of State."
 
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MrManH said:
Does anyone know what's the current general consensus on this issue? In some parts of Illinois, if you get a ticket (excluding DUIs) you can choose to:
-fight the ticket
-plead guilty and pay the fine, conviction gets reported on driving record
-plead guilty pay the fine and sign up for driving school (online class), conviction does not get reported, it does probably stay in that court's records though

"you may be eligible to take a Traffic Safety School course in order to avoid a conviction on your driving record"

"Upon successful completion of the class, the Driver Safety School will notify the court. No driving conviction will be reported to the Secretary of State."
Click to expand...
I don't know what the "general consensus" is, only what the FAA requires. If you were ticketed by the police for any sort of driving offense and you eventually ended up attending an "educational program" as a result (regardless of whether you were convicted of the offense and regardless of whether your license was suspended or revoked), you are required to report that on your next FAA medical application in block 18v.

That said, Bruce Chien has said that as long as there was no alcohol involved, and you don't have a long history of insane driving, it will be a yawner for the FAA, so if that's the only thing you have to worry about, you're probably better off doing the school to avoid points and conviction on your driving record. Of course, you can fight the ticket, and sometimes that works (probation before judgment without driving school is common when the offense is relatively minor, your driving record is otherwise clean, and alcohol isn't involved) -- ask your attorney about the probable outcome in your situation.

OTOH, if alcohol was involved, you're going to have to report the arrest in that block on that application no matter how the rest falls out (acquittal, conviction, rehab, school, whatever), and the FAA is going to take considerable interest in your situation.
 
Living in Illinois, I've had this happen once and I reported it. After I told Bruce that OH was not involved at all, it was, as Ron said, a yawn.
 
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