Replacing Vac pump and Attitude and Heading Indicator

Southpaw

Southpaw

Line Up and Wait
PoA Supporter
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
561
Location
Montana
Display Name
Display name:
Ernest Taft
In Dec I bought a Cessna 172 that had the above removed and a Mini I-pad mount installed.
My CFI thought today it would be nice to have the 6 pack back.
Wondering what that would cost.
Not realy liking ForeFlight and I-pad set up.
 
I can always put the Mini I-Pad on the Yoke.
 
An electrical failure would lose your T&B, and potentially the iPad mini, depending on the state of charge at the beginning of the flight.
The radio is out too.
So, whiskey compass, altitude, and airspeed still functioning indefinitely.

As long as you are a daytime, VFR only pilot, that should be safe enough, but my first and second inadvertent flight into cloud at night were at less than 50 hours, and less than 150 hours, so I am touchy about the likelihood of that happening. Neither forecast had clouds below 12,000 feet. A fully functional 6 pack and excellent instruction prior to the events made them non events.

I agree that the iPad mini would be a fine addition to an otherwise traditional panel.

The plane that I flew had an early Garmin, coupled to the autopilot. From time to time, it stopped updating, with no alarms. ATC would call up for an off airway warning, the PIC would reset the Garmin, and everything would work again. That is not something you want to deal with on the mini, as you will be losing both the attitude AND directional gyro simultaneously, even if the electric system continues to function normally. I don't think software running on an iPad is more reliable than a Garmin panel mount. Certainly, my iPad has not been.
 
Yes, the uAvionix instruments, or the Garmin G5 (though maybe a bit more expensive) would be the way to go. And, depending on how much of the old vacuum system has been stripped out, might just be cheaper in the long run. Just ballpark, for return to the original, it'd probably be at least $1500 for an AI, $1500 for a DG, and $1000 for the pump, (bearing in mind you won't have core units to return), plus plumbing.
 
Southpaw said:
In Dec I bought a Cessna 172 that had the above removed and a Mini I-pad mount installed.
My CFI thought today it would be nice to have the 6 pack back.
Wondering what that would cost.
Not realy liking ForeFlight and I-pad set up.
Click to expand...
Let the CFI pay for it.
 
Southpaw said:
My problem with the ForeFlight and sentry on the mininI-Pad is it is very small and hard to read.
CFI has trouble reading it from the right side.
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Won't the sentry feed 2 iPads data? My Stratus 3 does.
CFI must have their own iPad right?

What idiot pulled the vac and gauges? ;)
Garmin has good replacement.
 
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Southpaw said:
Wondering what that would cost.
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Check with your mechanic on options. There's FAA guidance that makes installing the non-vacuum/electrical instruments easier and in most cases only requires an AP sign off, i.e., cheaper. The whole purpose of the guidance was to remove vacuum type equipment due to high failure rates. So if wanting the "6-pack" back it would probably be more advantageous to go all electric in your situation.
 
Southpaw said:
In Dec I bought a Cessna 172 that had the above removed and a Mini I-pad mount installed.
My CFI thought today it would be nice to have the 6 pack back.
Wondering what that would cost.
Not realy liking ForeFlight and I-pad set up.
Click to expand...
Of course the first question is why did you have all that removed?
 
MauleSkinner said:
And the second question is did you actually read his post? ;)
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Yes I did. And I still don't understand why the stuff was removed. I just don't consider the iPad (or any consumer device, even if not illegal) appropriate as primary instruments. I do understand why a vacuum system may removed - susceptible to failure. What am I missing?
 
Personally, I would want an AI and Some sort of gyro compass or HSI, the former for inadvertent VFR into IMC, and the latter for ease of navigation. Without an AI and DG, the resale value of the plane will be degraded for sure. I'm not sure how removing these instruments was beneficial to safety, without replacing them with functional equivalents.

G5s or the new AV-30s would be good choices for vacuum-free AI/HSI displays.
 
murphey said:
Yes I did. And I still don't understand why the stuff was removed. I just don't consider the iPad (or any consumer device, even if not illegal) appropriate as primary instruments. I do understand why a vacuum system may removed - susceptible to failure. What am I missing?
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Southpaw said:
I bought a Cessna 172 that had the above removed
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He didn’t have the stuff removed...he bought it that way.
 
Hunt-man said:
Won't the sentry feed 2 iPads data? My Stratus 3 does.
CFI must have their own iPad right?

What idiot pulled the vac and gauges? ;)
Garmin has good replacement.
Click to expand...
Have no clue , This Aircraft has been around the block since 1959. with over 9000 hours and 60 years every one has had a turn modifying it. wings damaged and replaced with Horton stall , (nice addition) Tail dinged in a ground taxi incident , nose wheel and fire wall bent and fixed. Came with a the Vac system removed and Mini I pad mount in place of attitude and Heading indicator. ,All new instrument panel and wiring . engine upgraded from a 0-300 A to a C at last over haul. Alternator, starter , Mags. All new . Lovely flying aircraft with lots of history.
 
Unless you plan to maintain proficiency in instrument flying, I see no reason to have more gyros than a T&B.

(of course, the FAA disagrees with me...they apparently think a VFR Private Pilot will be proficient enough to fly instruments 10 years-or even 2 years-after he got his 3 hours of instrument instruction.)
 
People who fly only on nice sunny cloudless days often see those expensive and heavy gyros and vacuum system as a bunch of headache they can do without. Up here in the frozen north, starting an airplane that's been sitting in the cold often results in early gyro failures, since the lubricant in the gyro bearings is stiff and won't flow into the tiny ball bearings until things warm up, and the bearings fail. Or flight schools that get tired of busting gyros in stall/spin practice.

Lots of people fly perfectly safely on basic panels. Cubs, Champs, many airplanes.
 
Southpaw said:
Have no clue , This Aircraft has been around the block since 1959. with over 9000 hours and 60 years every one has had a turn modifying it. wings damaged and replaced with Horton stall , (nice addition) Tail dinged in a ground taxi incident , nose wheel and fire wall bent and fixed. Came with a the Vac system removed and Mini I pad mount in place of attitude and Heading indicator. ,All new instrument panel and wiring . engine upgraded from a 0-300 A to a C at last over haul. Alternator, starter , Mags. All new . Lovely flying aircraft with lots of history.
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copy. Sounds like a good plane.
What ratings do you have?
Will you do instrument work? Fly in marginal weather? At night?

I would be hesitant to throw money installing a vacuum system when you could go towards newer standards.

Your Sentry has AHRS and that will work. Would be nice to have a panel mounted gage as well.
 
Hunt-man said:
copy. Sounds like a good plane.
What ratings do you have?
Will you do instrument work? Fly in marginal weather? At night?

I would be hesitant to throw money installing a vacuum system when you could go towards newer standards.

Your Sentry has AHRS and that will work. Would be nice to have a panel mounted gage as well.
Click to expand...

35 hours in as student pilot,22 of those hours in a 150l. I’m 79 and this is my dream to fly.
I’m a farmer sort of semi retired. Want to fly local and in state to visit grand and great grandkids.
Who knows where it will lead but time is of the essence at this point. :)
 
Southpaw said:
35 hours in as student pilot,22 of those hours in a 150l. I’m 79 and this is my dream to fly.
I’m a farmer sort of semi retired. Want to fly local and in state to visit grand and great grandkids.
Who knows where it will lead but time is of the essence at this point. :)
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Well, it is a hard call. Do you have money to blow on instruments? You won't get all your money back if you sell it, but will get some back.
I'd suggest you focus on finishing the private pilot rating. Good weather is coming.
I flew a lot in my dads Citabria years ago. No vacuum system. Just Turn and Bank. I pushed it too hard going to pick up a hot young coed and flew into low clouds while scud running. Barely made it out. I was stupid and vacuum gyros would have been of great comfort.
That being said, if you are careful, fly in good weather only, as you should as a student or new private pilot, you'll be fine without a vacuum system or spending thousands on Garmin G5's or and Aspen etc etc. Lots of great VFR planes out there as has been mentioned above, that only fly VFR. Add your iPad and AHRS display and good to go.

I've been a CFI since 1987. Just retired from a police job last year. I fly a lot of IFR and love it.
 
Thinking for now to just go with what I have. Flew it for 10 hours with out iPad and foreflight got along just fine . But I got used to having a full panel in the150.
Thanks for all the input and ideas.
 
Hunt-man said:
I flew a lot in my dads Citabria years ago. No vacuum system. Just Turn and Bank. I pushed it too hard going to pick up a hot young coed and flew into low clouds while scud running. Barely made it out. I was stupid and vacuum gyros would have been of great comfort.
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There are (or were!) plenty of VFR pilots that fly into IMC in airplanes with full panels and end up losing control and crashing. A full panel is no guarantee of safety without the IFR training and rating.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There are (or were!) plenty of VFR pilots that fly into IMC in airplanes with full panels and end up losing control and crashing. A full panel is no guarantee of safety without the IFR training and rating.
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I’d add proficiency to the list of things required for safety...there are plenty of instrument rated pilots who fly VFR into IMC with full panels and lose control. That’s why prefer the technique that relies more on the airplane’s stability than on perishable pilot skills.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’d add proficiency to the list of things required for safety...there are plenty of instrument rated pilots who fly VFR into IMC with full panels and lose control. That’s why prefer the technique that relies more on the airplane’s stability than on perishable pilot skills.
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Stability or ability? :)

Damn you autocorrect!

Although it’s kinda true...
 
Dan Thomas said:
There are (or were!) plenty of VFR pilots that fly into IMC in airplanes with full panels and end up losing control and crashing. A full panel is no guarantee of safety without the IFR training and rating.
Click to expand...

MauleSkinner said:
I’d add proficiency to the list of things required for safety...there are plenty of instrument rated pilots who fly VFR into IMC with full panels and lose control. That’s why prefer the technique that relies more on the airplane’s stability than on perishable pilot skills.
Click to expand...

You are both right. I knew one pilot that didn't make it out of an IMC encounter....
I was talking to the OP about his aircraft's lack of a vacuum system. It reminded me of my Citabria experience 30+ years ago. A full panel would have been nice and made it easy for me.
When I did my dumb stunt I was very proficient and current at instrument flying. I was also very proficient in the Citabria, had been doing lots of aerobatics in it. I was also lucky. I had a special VFR clearance and just kept going lower and lower, trying to make it and poof, I didn't see it coming, and was in the clouds. Was still in after the 180. First thing I saw were tree tops ahead of me and I gently turned away from them and then broke out of the clouds. If I remember correctly the TC wasn't working right, likely from all the aerobatics. When I made it back home, and I stopped shaking, I filed IFR and took an IFR Piper Arrow up to pick up my date.

@Southpaw , I did some research and it looks like you can take your check ride in your AC as is. You will have to demonstrate all areas of the Private Pilot ACS, including attitude instrument flying, unusual attitude recovery, nav tracking etc. It appears that some examiners are ok using an iPad for that and some are not. Check with your CFI and DPE as you prepare. Might read the ACS so you know what to practice. Free on FAA.gov
 
Hunt-man said:
@Southpaw , I did some research and it looks like you can take your check ride in your AC as is. You will have to demonstrate all areas of the Private Pilot ACS, including attitude instrument flying, unusual attitude recovery, nav tracking etc. It appears that some examiners are ok using an iPad for that and some are not. Check with your CFI and DPE as you prepare. Might read the ACS so you know what to practice. Free on FAA.gov
Click to expand...
I never got the impression that his TC or T&B was removed, so he’d be fine per the instrument requirements.

There is documentation that a portable gps is sufficient for the nav tracking requirements, so if the DPE doesn’t accept that, I’d find a different DPE.
 
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